FrostyFireMage Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I was thinking of maybe a skill that allows Archers to attack at 1-range (Quick Draw, perhaps?). This Viole chap looks like a solid archer with good growths (and he can get a horsie on promotion), so things are looking up so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kngt_Of_Titania Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) We know that archers get the ranger promotion in this game, which, if everything is like before, means they at least have an option to get a pony/swords on promo. The second promotion almost HAS to be sniper, since I can't see them removing that class from the game; I hope this time they give Snipers a crit bonus (15%, a la most mono-weapon promoted classes in FE7) and a 3 range option, which would make them a viable alternative to ranger. Realistically, archers aren't inherently bad, so long as their niche is fully defined; in fact, in FE12 Lunatic, Snipers and Horsemen are rather awesome. FE12 H3 places large importance on Player Phase, which minimizes bows' weakness in EP, and all relevent bows (steel+) have notably more MT/crit than javelins or hand axes and aren't that expensive. So essentially bows give you a better Player Phase, since you can have strong offense without worrying (usually) about counters. Not saying that the entire team is bows, but the class is in pretty decent demand and basically guaranteed to make a showing in Wyvern/Dracoknight chapters. This game is also getting a Lunatic mode (which I'm surpised NOBODY has talked about), so archers have a chance to at least be desired there. Also, welcome to SF! You'll learn to hate me soon enough. :D Edited March 23, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Oh Wil, no one hates you. With Crossbows in FERD, I fully expect them again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyFireMage Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 We know that archers get the ranger promotion in this game, which, if everything is like before, means they at least have an option to get a pony/swords on promo. The second promotion almost HAS to be sniper, since I can't see them removing that class from the game; I hope this time they give Snipers a crit bonus (15%, a la most mono-weapon promoted classes in FE7) and a 3 range option, which would make them a viable alternative to ranger. Realistically, archers aren't inherently bad, so long as their niche is fully defined; in fact, in FE12 Lunatic, Snipers and Horsemen are rather awesome. FE12 H3 places large importance on Player Phase, which minimizes bows' weakness in EP, and all relevent bows (steel+) have notably more MT/crit than javelins or hand axes and aren't that expensive. So essentially bows give you a better Player Phase, since you can have strong offense without worrying (usually) about counters. Not saying that the entire team is bows, but the class is in pretty decent demand and basically guaranteed to make a showing in Wyvern/Dracoknight chapters. This game is also getting a Lunatic mode (which I'm surpised NOBODY has talked about), so archers have a chance to at least be desired there. Also, welcome to SF! You'll learn to hate me soon enough. :D Thanks for the welcome, it's nice to see another archer enthusiast. I'll try to avoid being bothered by your antics. Crossbows are indeed helpful, but I'd like a 1-range bow that only archers/snipers/rangers can use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byte2222 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 With Crossbows in FERD, I fully expect them again. Funny, I fully expect them to not return. They were underpowered, too expensive, neutered a class' uniqueness, added a needless complication and IMO didn't fit into the world well and were generally forgettable. I expect FE13 is picking and choosing only the best elements and removing anything unnecessary so I would be surprised to see them return. As for the actual archers, my opinion is that the only problem with the class is the units in it: almost all archers are 'growth units' who, due to low bases, have to struggle against sub-par performance on player phase until they get going. The solution to this is not to give them an EP but to make their PP better: Shinon was great, not because of crossbows (though they helped), but because he had solid stats that would give him a strong PP and keep him alive in EP. I'd also like to point out FE4 Jamuka, who has solid bases and a growth weakness (only 10% skill growth), is a good unit, possibly the best non-holy blood unit of gen. 1. Fortunately, from everything we've seen Viole looks solid and has performed well so far. We may get a chance to test my theory... I'm always glad to see a new member and an archer fan. You may see me chirping in in places because I actually am an archer in real life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyFireMage Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 Impressive. Shinon was great in RD but only because of great dodging and durability and the broken Marksman class that he could acquire in less then ten levels. I'd prefer an archer who is considered high-tier because he/she is great at what an archer should be doing in regards to their niche on the battlefield, not because of how he/she is a better defensive unit that the actual defensive units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arvilino Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Impressive. Shinon was great in RD but only because of great dodging and durability and the broken Marksman class that he could acquire in less then ten levels. I'd prefer an archer who is considered high-tier because he/she is great at what an archer should be doing in regards to their niche on the battlefield, not because of how he/she is a better defensive unit that the actual defensive units. That mostly depends on the game itself than the Archer. Games with high enemy density but with weaker enemies generally mean that Melee characters and Magic users with good durability are very useful, but a character who only reliably get 1 round of combat per player and enemy phase is only going to be good when the enemy density is low and they are dealing damage you want to avoid. That or being good enough as a unit(e.g. most GBA Pre-Promote Snipers) with the some of best Ranged Combat on their join chapter, which is usually due to them having Silver Bow available. Though for unpromoted Archers. The best examples of good ones are FE11/FE12 Hunters(High Str, above average speed) and FE10 enemy Archers(Basically the same, they outdamage the Fighters in part 1) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasori Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I like archers, they are probably my second favorite class. Radiant dawn was a step in the good direction, but I wonder if they will bring 2/3 range back now that the marksman is gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titamon Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Maybe Snipers should gain the ability to counter at 1-range when they reach S bows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velth Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 i think they should make bows counter in 1 range by smacking the enemy in the face (like staffs in fe10) for base bow dmg + half strength(or 1/3) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Impressive. Shinon was great in RD but only because of great dodging and durability and the broken Marksman class that he could acquire in less then ten levels. Actually, it was more because of his good offensive base stats, with 21STR/24SPD and good growths in those stats (Ike has 24STR/23SPD but inferior growths, for reference). In addition, Marksmen aren't broken, or even close to being broken. I'd prefer an archer who is considered high-tier because he/she is great at what an archer should be doing in regards to their niche on the battlefield, Archers don't have a "niche", their role of killing enemies one that is shared by virtually all combat units. And Shinon is good because he is good at killing enemies. not because of how he/she is a better defensive unit that the actual defensive units. Shinon is not a better defensive unit than either Brom, Gatrie, or Haar. In addition, I don't think his high defenses are particularly useful, either, since his enemy phase combat is still poor. I was thinking of maybe a skill that allows Archers to attack at 1-range (Quick Draw, perhaps?). Yeah, lets take the defining quality of Archers and remove it. Screw actually giving them an ability that makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaggle of Geese Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Yeah, lets take the defining quality of Archers and remove it. Screw actually giving them an ability that makes sense. Archers could counterattack at 1 range in Fire Emblem Gaiden. Also, you're a douche. Here's an idea: they can counterattack at 1 range, but their accuracy and/or attack strength is reduced. Edited March 23, 2012 by Flock of Geese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Welcome to SF, you'll learn to not give a fuck about me. Anyways, archers attacking at 1 range would seem a bit to reasonable. I'd like it if they could do it t 2-5 range better. Maybe having the same effect as RDs Double Bow would be nice, reduced acc, but still 1 range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Archers could counterattack at 1 range in Fire Emblem Gaiden. My overall point is unchanged. It is possible and reasonable to make archers as good as regular units while still making them distinct. We have seen archer/snipers like this in the past, such as Shinon, or Klein, or various bow users in FE12, it is not "impossible". They do not need 1 range to be good. Also, you're a douche. sure why not Welcome to SF, you'll learn to not give a fuck about me. Anyways, archers attacking at 1 range would seem a bit to reasonable. I'd like it if they could do it t 2-5 range better. My problem with 2-5 range is that it would quickly grow difficult to protect frail units such as Pegasi or clerics from enemy archers. 2-3 range is still kind of workable, but 2-5? Probably the best solution is just to make various Longbow-type weapons more common and better. FE10 introduced Steel and Silver Longbows, but those weapons were really horrible statistically... Maybe having the same effect as RDs Double Bow would be nice, reduced acc, but still 1 range. I don't think that the Double Bow cut accuracy at 1-range. Edited March 23, 2012 by Anouleth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thanibomb Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) I would love it if archers were able to counter attack at 1 range like FE10's stave users. It irks me to no end when a 1 HP enemy unit attacks one of my bow users and they just stand there and take it. :/ edit: And as an archer enthusiast, I support ALL possible archer buffs. I'd still play them if they were the worst class ever, though. #archerpride Edited March 23, 2012 by Viole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byte2222 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Archers could counterattack at 1 range in Fire Emblem Gaiden. Also, you're a douche. Here's an idea: they can counterattack at 1 range, but their accuracy and/or attack strength is reduced. In Gaiden archers had 1-3 range which could be increased to 1-5 with the right weapons or third tier (bow knight). They were also stupidly overpowered and Python remains the most overpowered archer in FE history (Leo's still amazing but not quite as much as Python). One thing that FE2 archers could do though was out-range mages and this is something I'd be happy to see return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Archers don't have a "niche", their role of killing enemies one that is shared by virtually all combat units. And Shinon is good because he is good at killing enemies. A method of killing enemies can be a niche. If Archers were the only characters able to attack at range 2 to shoot through allies and obstacles, that would be a niche. If other characters can attack at range 2, but archers have enough effectiveness at that range that you would often have no real substitute for an archer to kill an enemy at a distance, that would be a niche as well. Range 3 can also be a niche, but not nearly as easily, because there aren't so many situations when you would need to kill an enemy that's 3 squares away and can't get close enough for range 2. And outranging range 2 is nice, but less common to need to outrange than the far more common range 1. Seems to me it may well be enough if Snipers just get +15% crit and +1 range - much like in FE10, but without that stupid accuracy penalty, and without just getting a range that other bow users could match with powerful weapons anyway. Melee is unnecessary if they can improve their range enough to solidify their niche. Other bow users will probably do fine like always, especially with all the flying units around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 A method of killing enemies can be a niche. If Archers were the only characters able to attack at range 2 to shoot through allies and obstacles, that would be a niche. If other characters can attack at range 2, but archers have enough effectiveness at that range that you would often have no real substitute for an archer to kill an enemy at a distance, that would be a niche as well. Range 3 can also be a niche, but not nearly as easily, because there aren't so many situations when you would need to kill an enemy that's 3 squares away and can't get close enough for range 2. And outranging range 2 is nice, but less common to need to outrange than the far more common range 1. Well, I guess that's true. And I'd like to point out that even range 3 is pretty important because magic using enemies are frequently quite dangerous. Seems to me it may well be enough if Snipers just get +15% crit and +1 range - much like in FE10, but without that stupid accuracy penalty, With all the skill that Snipers had, it's not like the accuracy penalty ever really made a difference. I guess it meant that Astrid and Leo couldn't make effective use of Longbows early on... But I agree that crit and +1 range would be a good setup for snipers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNG Princess Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I hope sniper class returns it would be weird without it ^^'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Well, I guess that's true. And I'd like to point out that even range 3 is pretty important because magic using enemies are frequently quite dangerous. With all the skill that Snipers had, it's not like the accuracy penalty ever really made a difference. I guess it meant that Astrid and Leo couldn't make effective use of Longbows early on... But I agree that crit and +1 range would be a good setup for snipers. True. I've never played far in FE11/12's higher difficulties, and it sounds like that's the case there, even though I haven't seen it matter too much in other games. So if FE13 continues to have such dangerous mages, at least on some difficulties, then yeah, being the only characters able to out-range magic attacks without siege weapons would contribute to a decent enough niche. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thanibomb Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I hope sniper class returns it would be weird without it ^^'. They have to! They're one of the staple classes of the series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamimari Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) I loved the FE10 marksmen 2-3 range and would like it to return. But I think to make archers viable hte hit rate on javalins and hand axes need to get nerfed thus archers, and light magic users too I guess, would be the go to for accurate indirect combat... for early game at least. Also the new dual battle system would have to allow archers to always trigger the additional attack, like a class specific skill or something, then I think they would be more or less balanced even without 2-3 range. Edited March 24, 2012 by Zamimari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Book of Ereshkigal Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Snipers should get daggers. :p 3 range ftw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I don't think that the Double Bow cut accuracy at 1-range. Yes. Yes it did. It's not noticeable on anything except Auras and Ashera, though, since he tends to have 100 hit on most stuff even with the -30 penalty for not two range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I'm pretty sure it doesn't because the Double Bow's innate range is 1-2. I'm also pretty sure that longbows didn't cut accuracy at 3-range either, since their innate range is 2-3. You just think it did because their innate hit is terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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