Am I the only one, who dislikes the idea of lunatic+?

[Jac]

Perhaps. But in the end, I still see it as akin to Swagger in Pokemon - it adds next to nothing to the game, emphasizes luck over skill (even if it doesn't throw skill completely down the tubes like Swagger does), and just is no fun to deal with whatsoever.

As a Smogonite who went though all the mess of the talk that Swagger was i can agree with your point here.

As a newcomer to FE who is trying to beat Luna + for ther first time, i can also agree here. It's quite unfair. I would think the reason im getting nowhere is that im not planing things out. Like people pointing out to use MU x Fred pair up. I always use Chrom x Fred pair up and that's why i fail. So i guess reworking strats would get you farther.

Now yes most of the Luna + ability handouts are a coin flip but there's a logical way to manuver around them. Swagger is like: oh look para chance + confuse chance + actaulyl hitting with a move if it doesnt have 100% acc. And im referring to the whole luna + game, not just early chapters.

So all in all i'd say it's somewhat relative but not completely.

Also i have no clue where i wanna stand. I hate it but it's a test of true skill to me. other may deem it as a RNG whore fest. I mean some like it, others dont. I wanna beat it to prove im alright at this game and it's a worthy test. I like seeing where my enemies attack thanks... I dont wanna think how it could get worse than that. And with that i should restart and replan ch2 with this glorious information.

[Interceptor]

Perhaps. But in the end, I still see it as akin to Swagger in Pokemon - it adds next to nothing to the game, emphasizes luck over skill (even if it doesn't throw skill completely down the tubes like Swagger does), and just is no fun to deal with whatsoever.

I don't see how there is a "perhaps" about it; if you are a skilled player, the "randomness" of the Lunatic+ skill distribution is a lot less intimidating to deal with, because you can come up with new strategies on the fly to play whatever hand you are dealt. Lunatic+ rewards tactics and strategy more than any other mode in this game, relative to your success rate. This isn't really a controversial observation.

Thus I'd also dispute that it adds "next to nothing" to the game: it clearly adds a difficult challenge for the expert to tackle, and that's a valuable thing. If you don't think that Lunatic+ takes skill, just look at the difference between the people who know how to beat it, and the people who don't.

The first time I ever played Lunatic+, I cleared Prologue in one shot as well. It's honestly reliable enough that I've considered manipulating an event tile for a Leif's Blade (pseudo-killing edge) which makes Cht.2 massively easier.

I noticed a bit of this yesterday; I'd always approached Chapter 2 as a defensive challenge, but it's also an offensive one as well. None of the enemies have anything to mitigate damage (just to deter it), and things like crits and doubling can dismantle some of the pressure that placement puts on you.

I was looking at wasting time in Ch.1 to build supports, too. Avatar is pretty close to a useful doubling threshold in Ch. 2 with C Chrom, even without a SPD asset.

As a newcomer to FE who is trying to beat Luna + for ther first time, i can also agree here. It's quite unfair. I would think the reason im getting nowhere is that im not planing things out. Like people pointing out to use MU x Fred pair up. I always use Chrom x Fred pair up and that's why i fail. So i guess reworking strats would get you farther.

If you go into Lunatic+ with any goals other than "I want to beat this mode", you're doing a lot of damage to your chances of success. Every artificial restriction you add ("I won't let anyone die", "Avatar always paired with X", "I like Swordmasters") will take options off the table.

[XeKr]

Perhaps. But in the end, I still see it as akin to Swagger in Pokemon - it adds next to nothing to the game, emphasizes luck over skill (even if it doesn't throw skill completely down the tubes like Swagger does), and just is no fun to deal with whatsoever.

1. No one cares about Swagger in the single player. It’s relevant in PvP (and only recently, which does suggest something…)

2. As has been mentioned, the Lunatic(+) “luck” myth is kinda silly. Yeah, insofar as FE is innately an RNG-based game, but it’s really not so much more than previous FE games. Do we just conveniently forget saving Jaffar in FE7, or FE6 C7 in general, etc? tbh Lunatic is probably less “luck” dependent than that stuff (even if you want to save everyone); very reliable clears are possible for all chapters.

There’s something to be said about how variable Lunatic+ is, from just barely above Lunatic to really crazy in difficulty. Sometimes it may feel easier to reset the skill distribution than to figure something out. But again, if you try, very rarely is it impossible. So in the end it comes down to player skill if you’re dedicated (or patience, if you do choose that route).

Edited April 19, 2014 by XeKr

[LordFrigid]

From my experience (granted I've only had one experience, with another in progress), past the early game Lunatic+ isn't so bad. Backlines can laugh off Aegis+/Pavise+ when the Dual Strike rates start getting more reliable, Bows and/or Galeforce negate Counter (and Vantage+, if they've got a 1-range weapon), and good positioning stops Pass. Nothing you can do about Hawkeye, but honestly in the later game those guys are probably going to hit you anyway.

My trouble is with the early game, because I suffer much from this:

If you go into Lunatic+ with any goals other than "I want to beat this mode", you're doing a lot of damage to your chances of success. Every artificial restriction you add ("I won't let anyone die", "Avatar always paired with X", "I like Swordmasters") will take options off the table.

Particularly no deaths, and no Outrealm Gate (not mentioned, but it is an artificial restriction...though I'm fine with doing skirmishes). I also have some troubles with throwing together new strategies on the fly in the early game (I find it easier later, when you have more fun stuff to work with). But it's still doable, just about.

tl;dr I hate the early game, but I personally find that to be the worst part, and it's not so bad that I think Lunatic+ as a concept is unbearable.

Edited April 19, 2014 by LordFrigid

[Jotari]

From my experience (granted I've only had one experience, with another in progress), past the early game Lunatic+ isn't so bad. Backlines can laugh off Aegis+/Pavise+ when the Dual Strike rates start getting more reliable, Bows and/or Galeforce negate Counter (and Vantage+, if they've got a 1-range weapon), and good positioning stops Pass. Nothing you can do about Hawkeye, but honestly in the later game those guys are probably going to hit you anyway.

My trouble is with the early game, because I suffer much from this:

Particularly no deaths, and no Outrealm Gate (not mentioned, but it is an artificial restriction...though I'm fine with doing skirmishes). I also have some troubles with throwing together new strategies on the fly in the early game (I find it easier later, when you have more fun stuff to work with). But it's still doable, just about.

tl;dr I hate the early game, but I personally find that to be the worst part, and it's not so bad that I think Lunatic+ as a concept is unbearable.

So at what point does early game end and things become better?

[Airship Canon]

So at what point does early game end and things become better?

As a point, after C3. [Although Late game -does- have a couple nightmarish chapters [C23 and C24 come to mind] and C12 is no walk in the park either]

[Shadow Mir]

1. No one cares about Swagger in the single player. It’s relevant in PvP (and only recently, which does suggest something…)

2. As has been mentioned, the Lunatic(+) “luck” myth is kinda silly. Yeah, insofar as FE is innately an RNG-based game, but it’s really not so much more than previous FE games. Do we just conveniently forget saving Jaffar in FE7, or FE6 C7 in general, etc? tbh Lunatic is probably less “luck” dependent than that stuff (even if you want to save everyone); very reliable clears are possible for all chapters.

There’s something to be said about how variable Lunatic+ is, from just barely above Lunatic to really crazy in difficulty. Sometimes it may feel easier to reset the skill distribution than to figure something out. But again, if you try, very rarely is it impossible. So in the end it comes down to player skill if you’re dedicated (or patience, if you do choose that route).

1. Admittedly, I specifically had competitive in mind with the Swagger analogy, given that ingame opponents in general aren't too notable (there's also the part where most of the most notable Swagger users have it backed up by Prankster and Foul Play; it doesn't help matters that because of this, they could simply invest in max bulk and hope you smack yourself; for the record, Magic Bounce isn't a good answer to Swagplay given that two of the three mons with it are weak to Dark, and it still puts a pretty big dent in the other).

2. I agree that pretty much everything in FE is RNG related in one way or another. Though personally, I'd have had a mind to mention HHM Battle Before Dawn for a reason other than Jaffar - it's possible to lose with you being unable to do a single thing about it.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Popped in to say stuff, but Airship pretty much stole the words out of my mouth.

One thing I do want to add is that even when willing to make other sacrifices, there is a significant RNG-hinge, even though statistically it should be quite small. Most long-term strategies revolve around Avatar, who offers pretty good chances for success, but strings of poor level ups are going to result in resets. I did a minimal reset run (with my usual no grind/renown/nos restrictions) a few runs back where I wasn't resetting for bad level ups or most poor skill distributions. Avatar's Speed was so bad that I had to swap Chrom in as the pair-up partner early (usually run Fred because Avatar needs the Def) just to avoid getting doubled. I still managed to get through the run, but the early game was significantly harder and full of Avatar-death-driven resets.

[PKL]

Lunatic+ basically forces an specific playstyle just to get through it. Great difficulty...

[Czar_Yoshi]

Lunatic+ basically forces an specific playstyle just to get through it. Great difficulty...

If thinking on your toes counts as a specific playstyle, then yes it does. And I'd call that a good thing.

[PKL]

If thinking on your toes counts as a specific playstyle, then yes it does. And I'd call that a good thing.

Very funny. It was a joke right? No? Come on. The difficulty is a mess. The earlygame just doesnt work. The only reason its even beatable is because the avatar is broken.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

After resetting and watching lunatic+ stuff of "Interceptor" and Rey, I could beat finally chapter 2 after 10 tries!

I gave my avatar defense+, so I could use him more. In my first run I used Frederick too much and my avatar was underleveled. Now he is level 13. I think it is enough. Chapter 3 will be even worse, if Rey says it is the hardest chapter. I will take a break for the moment. The main point I hate that enemy skill are completly random. I always restarted, when an enemy has luna+ and hawkeye.

Thanks to all the people, who gave me the tips and instructions! Without your help, I would still stuck in chapter 2!

Edited April 23, 2014 by MisterIceTeaPeach

[someonewhodied]

chapter 2 is the hardest in lunatic+

you can get your tactician to ~lv12 using the water tiles trick in prologue, and by the time your lightning runs out, you get fire in CH2. I also suggest soft resetting till a shining tile in prologue gives you another magic tome. Any tome except dark magic will let you grind well around lv14 and still have enough magic to reach ch2.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Given that the starting wave is all melee, running the Bronze Sword is an option too, especially since it takes advantage of the big Strength boost that Fred provides (not to mention giving a significant evasion bonus against the axe users from cancelling out their entire A proficiency bonus, which is largely hit, and applying Avatar's WTA hit penalty).

[XeKr]

Very funny. It was a joke right? No? Come on. The difficulty is a mess. The earlygame just doesnt work. The only reason its even beatable is because the avatar is broken.

You’re acting surprisingly close-minded about this. Is it impossible to imagine some people like the premise behind Lunatic+? (random skills forcing you to adapt)

Maybe refute Interceptor’s points specifically instead of just making random claims?