About to start and record a ranked HHM run... questions.

[Brinzy]

EDIT: Playlist is here. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgDVIbE5qZBP1yhs2ncGmN5uDbvrDTroI

- How hard is it to S-rank funds, really? I was 23k ahead in funds in an S-rank run I just did tonight of ENM and I squandered at least 40k on stuff I didn't need. Everything else stayed at 5 stars. HHM requires 75k less gold, but what's confusing to me is, although you won't get the free money at the start and may even need to sell a stat booster, you get so many more random items (Earth Seal druid in Sands of Time, as a quick example) that more than make up for it. Also you get the Silver Card, which will effectively double your liquid gold value.

This doesn't even begin to count the several 0 turn requirement chapters you get, many of which will give natural opportunities to gain money anyway.

- Experience rank is vague. I know it means to get a lot of experience. I know this translates into basically trying to maximize experience when I can. The question I have is how exactly am I supposed to do this? Do I just get everyone to x level, promote a certain number of units, then go from there? I realize that I need Y amount of experience to S-rank HHM. I assume that simply 20/20ing a core team is not good enough... or is it? I only had one unit at 20/20 in my recent ENM run and everything was fine. It's really grey to me.

- Tactics seems largely straightforward, but when I add up all the HHM chapters - skipping 0 turn count chapters and going Linus/Kenneth - I come up with 328 turns, which is much higher than the 310 that seems to be the goal. Adding in the 0 chapters and it seems like I need to shave off like 40 turns from the recommended values. What am I missing here? I assume Linus is what you want to default to because Geitz is tons better than Wallace... or does this magic 310 number on the Summary page of rankings assume you go Lloyd first?

And, are any of the gaidens worth skipping, not counting 19xx obviously? I assume no.

Any info you've got is appreciated.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Brinzy

[Florete]

-It seems like you answered the first one yourself. Funds is not a big deal.

-The experience rank requires you to cycle through weaker units and feed them kills. 20/20ing a core team is most definitely not enough. Train everyone (yes, everyone) to a point and focus on units who give you free and/or bonus experience (Thieves, healers, Ninian).

-I haven't added it up myself, but what with branching path and 0 requirements, I'd trust your own calculations over a vague number on the site. Like, it doesn't even say that's the max, just that it's "good enough"...

-Imo, 32x is not worth going to unless you're really needing an extra experience push.

It's almost five years ago and I didn't log the whole thing, just the ending, but if you'd like, you can see the results of my HHM S rank run here to give you an idea on experience and turns and...stuff.

[Brinzy]

Hah, I remember seeing this thread years ago, now that you've prompted me. I should've checked.

I see that you, unlike most players, actually gave Lyn a fair shot. That gives me hope, because my best runs often involve the female units that gravitate towards high Avo. It isn't something I seek to do... I just like those units more.

Taking a glance over your numbers, I noticed that you also found skipping the chests in 28x to be worth it. I'm glad that chapter gives you 28 turns to work with, because that's probably the biggest cut you can make anywhere in the game.

Gotta ask, who did you do the arena with, if you recall? I assume Serra/Priscilla are great candidates once you can use them.

I'm so excited to give this a shot now. Your thread and your post basically answered all my main concerns. : )

Edited June 20, 2015 by Brinzy

[Florete]

I can't remember for sure, but for the arena I'm pretty sure I focused on most any units not part of my main team. Matthew and Legault, and later Jaffar, are good choices for their experience boost. Anyone you might have a tough time raising otherwise is a good candidate for the arena, so long as you use Ninis's Grace.

Glad I could help.

[Mekkah]

Here's the recordings of my own unfinished run.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jj9oYDubTceVI1BSu5nLB6-JxZveVheqEOiKrTn7Dgc/edit?usp=sharing

I've only kept track of turns. As you can see, it starts with a pretty big deficit, but the midgame turn count requirements are very generously making up for it. At Dragon's Gate, I'm already in the positive.

[Balcerzak]

If you need more numbers/etc. feel free to peek at my logged run as well. I actually did every gaiden chapter, for the sake of completionism, but you can obviously get away with skipping some of them. I'll gladly answer any other questions as best I can remember, but the run is pretty old at this point, and I did reasonably thorough documentation throughout, I think..

Edited June 20, 2015 by Balcerzak

[Sunfall]

Funds is only ever a concern if you are using more than a full deployment limit's worth of units--this should never be an issue once you have settled on your final lineup. From there it is just a matter of stealing the valuable stuff whenever it shows up and hanging onto it.

Experience is simply how much experience you have gained throughout the entire game--there is no differentiation between levels gained by basic or promoted classes. If you ever find your Experience rating slumping, just bring someone into a chapter that can gain lots of experience from kills, provided that they won't be too much of a liability for the chapter.

Linus or Lloyd first only really matters if you have any intentions of using Geitz; HHM bonuses actually make him pretty decent. but if you don't need him, you can go ahead and shoot for the Lloyd chapter if you want.

[Brinzy]

Wow, these numbers are actually VERY helpful for me. I'm just debating on if I want Blue Gem or White Gem and I'm set.

You guys are awesome.

[Brinzy]

Okay, Lyn's mode is down.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgDVIbE5qZBP1yhs2ncGmN5uDbvrDTroI

If anyone's bored.

I decided I wanted the white gem instead of the blue gem, so I didn't use the Energy Ring.

[ruadath]

Congratulations on finishing Lyn Mode! Now the real nightmare begins... just kidding. Good luck with the rest of it, and keep us updated!

[Brinzy]

Thanks!

As you can see, unlike your run, I didn't plan anything besides making sure I understood the metrics. : )

I am following yours simultaneously.

[ruadath]

It's funny really; I planned a ton for the LHM 58/60 stars and getting Sain promoted at level 13 (my two primary objectives), but I've made almost no plans for HHM itself. It might take me a while before I do chapter 10 and beyond, since I really need to come up with a general strategy for resource distribution, etc. in HHM before I start it. I would very much appreciate others' input/advice here!

[Paper Jam]

The Silver Card and the Arenas (particularly in Linus' version of Four-Fanged Offense) make the Funds rank pretty trivial, honestly. You shouldn't have much trouble with Funds even if you recruit Farina.

310 is a rough estimate (not to mention a low estimate), and the Lloyd/Linus and Kenneth/Jerme splits complicate things. You are correct that the total par for HHM Tactics with Linus and Kenneth is 328. (Incidentally, Lloyd+Kenneth is 317; Lloyd+Jerme is 324; and Linus+Jerme is 335.)

While it's possible to get S rank in a run where you completed all of the sidequests (I should know; I've done it), 19xx and 32x might not be worth the trouble.

With the Warp staff, you can complete 32x in as few as 2 turns, or maybe even just one with a lucky crit. (The Magic Seal doesn't stop you from warping characters INTO its dead-zone.)

Oh, and to get 5 star Funds for chapter 16, you need the White Gem.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Paper Jam

[Brinzy]

Hey thanks Mr. Jam. I appreciate it.

I don't find 19xx very appealing. I've read arguments that have supported 32x, namely from people saying to promote an assassin and have them farm Berserkers, but I can't say that I find it that particularly interesting. If I absolutely can spare the turns, I will go to 32x for the essentially free XP, but I am not really in favor of the chapter. Of course, being able to spare those turns will absolutely help the XP rank.

Fortunately I went after the White Gem, so I should be good to go for that. Energy Ring was appealing but ultimately a no-go.

Would it be fair to say that Experience rank is harder than Tactics? This is merely a matter of opinion for everyone reading. It certainly seems that way to me.

Anyway, I got two HHM chapters up.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Brinzy

[Paper Jam]

Depending on how you like to play, Experience can be harder than Tactics. (I'd say the first time I played EHM, it definitely was.) Granted, Tactics is tighter and Experience less so in HHM than in EHM, so your mileage may vary in that regard.

What makes Experience so much more difficult in Hard Mode than in Normal Mode is that the penalty for killing low-level enemies with high-level units is much more severe than in Normal Mode. Like Red Fox of Fire said, you really can't afford to bench anybody without giving them at least a few kills. Most of the time, I find myself weakening enemies with high level units so that I can kill them with low level units.

I had a pretty long lecture planned out, but I'm not sure if you care to count every last experience point. I do have some tips about bosses if you are interested, though.

[Brinzy]

I am interested about what you have to say about bosses.

I don't know the mechanics exactly, but basically since there's little difference between a boss kill on someone higher leveled than the boss vs. someone lower than the boss, it would be beneficial to get strong units to kill bosses, right?

Do you milk boss XP by chipping away with characters? I tend to do this, personally.

Other than that, that's really all I can think of. I'm probably overthinking this.

[ruadath]

I don't know the mechanics exactly, but basically since there's little difference between a boss kill on someone higher leveled than the boss vs. someone lower than the boss, it would be beneficial to get strong units to kill bosses, right?

Well, it depends really. You (sometimes) don't want to make an overleveled unit even more overleveled such that they are relegated to only making such contributions to the EXP rank. Sometimes its better to bench, or use only for weakening, a particular unit for a few chapters so that the enemy levels have a chance to "catch up" to them.

Do you milk boss XP by chipping away with characters? I tend to do this, personally.

Yes, this is a good idea, provided you're not close to the threshold on Combat rank (which you never should be). This is actually (sometimes) a better idea for overleveled units since they often get more EXP hitting the boss than one-shotting weak enemies (e.g. the way I used Sain in the Eagler chapter).

Edited July 14, 2015 by ruadath

[Brinzy]

I agree with not wanting overleveled units to become an even worse issue later on. Personally in 13, which I just uploaded, I actually killed the boss with Oswin and got 83 experience after chipping away at him with a few other units. I don't typically kill on him unless it will make killing on other characters easier. Combat... isn't a real rank. I never, ever think about it, much like how I don't actively think about the Survival rank.

Things mostly seem to be going as expected so far. Given this is the first time I've recorded myself, I didn't realize it took me 25 minutes to clear chapter 13.

[Paper Jam]

I'm going to get a bit mathematical here, and cite http://serenesforest.net/blazing-sword/miscellaneous/calculations/

Although high-level units do not get as much experience as low-level units when fighting the same enemy, it is possible to waste experience when your unit's level is too low as well. By "wasted experience," I mean experience that you would have gained if certain limitations inherent in the system had not taken effect: Most notably, that level 20 characters cannot gain experience at all, that level 19 characters can only gain enough experience to bring them to level 20, and that nobody can gain more than 100 experience from a single battle.

It's that last part that may lead to wasted experience if you use a low-level character to defeat a high-level boss. For most units* killing most enemies*, you get 30+10E/3-10U/3 experience, where E is the enemy level (plus 20 if promoted), and U is your unit's level (plus 20 if promoted). For killing a boss*, you get 70+10E/3-10U/3 experience, but again, this can't exceed 100. For example, if your unit is 10 levels lower than the boss, the unit should get 103 experience for killing the boss**; but since you can't get more than 100 experience from a single battle, in this case 3 experience points would be wasted.

In short, in addition to deploying your lowest-level unit in each chapter and giving them plenty of experience, I recommend also deploying a unit who is within 9 levels of the boss (the boss level minus 9 being the highest level at which you can get 100 experience for killing the boss). I refer to this unit as my "designated boss killer."

*Other than Soldiers, Thieves, Assassins, Troubadours, Valkyries, Clerics, and female Bishops

** If E-U=10, then 70+10(E-U)/3=103 1/3

Edited July 14, 2015 by Paper Jam

[Brinzy]

I've seen that formula around a ton, but I NEVER thought to maximize experience points that way. I've honestly never even read about this anywhere.

That is brilliant. I can already see some applications for this when I bring back some strong but lowish units vs. relatively easy to kill bosses throughout the game. Man oh man... I need to research this more to see who may be optimal when, based on typical circumstances.

(I've got 13 and 13x up.)

Now that I am actually watching myself play this game for the first time, seeing me misplace units and miss out on supports I want makes me cringe. Serra x Hector is slow enough as it is...

Edited July 15, 2015 by Brinzy

[Brinzy]

So I have a save file where I did Dragon's Gate in 14 turns... which would have been 12 if I had remembered to give Legault a Lockpick. This chapter for some reason has been RNG smacking me badly. Looking in my recycle bin, I have 23 attempts on this thing. I'm only 3 turns behind Tactics however, so keeping this save would only put me one turn behind. I could simply watch my video and repeat every single thing I did to shave those two turns, but looking at Mekkah's and Balcerzak's runs, that's still relatively slow. In fact, my turn counts generally look like Red's, so it must be a playstyle thing.

How do you guys handle that chapter? What I do is I leave Dart behind to clean up Pegasi and Archers, and I use Lucius to get the Killer Bow and then move him in to solo the mages with a Pure Water. Eli, Fiora, Canas w/ Door Key, and Priscilla go to the right. Serra Unlocks the bottom left room and Matthew solos that archer. Generally, Lyn is doing quite well with Hector, Lowen, and Marcus (who I had to sub in over Wil to actually beat the chapter). I just can't seem to intercept Legault taking the door in front of Darin in time, so I have to go around and hope Hector and Lyn have it together for the Fighters, Knights, and lone mage.

If anyone misses at a bad time, I essentially have the Secret Card Thief walling me off, which will cause Legault to escape... and this has happened a LOT. Should I just burn up experience here with Marcus to save turns and frustration? That's what it sounds like I need to do to get turn counts close to 9.

[Paper Jam]

If my memory and my notes are correct, I used Wil and Rebecca to deal with the archers, brigands, etc. in the SSE building and Matthew and... one of the cavaliers, I think; probably Sain... to deal with the archer and the chest in the WSW building. I know that I had Matthew open the chest and then the cavalier rescue him and carry him counterclockwise around that building to rejoin the Lords, who were pushing up the alley west of the middle building. I had Lyn kill Cameron; she and Eliwood made short work of the other cavaliers and nomads too.

Raven and Lucius dealt with the enemies in the middle building; Wil and Rebecca stayed behind to deal with the pegasus reinforcements; everyone else kept pushing forward through the alley.

I don't remember whether I had Matthew rescue-dropped to the door in front of Darin and had him open it so that the Lords could intercept Legault, or whether I used a Door Key to do the same. Either way, I sent Matthew to open the chests in the WNW room.

Anyway, my notes tell me that I managed to do all of this in 10 or 11 turns.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Paper Jam

[Brinzy]

I assume every iteration of East you meant West? But anyway, I never considered just staying near the start with archers to deal with that group... that's really smart. My Rebecca is level 9 and my Wil is level 7, so I could make it the last chapter I use either of them heavily.

10 or 11 turns to do all of that sounds very reasonable given that I potentially had 12 turns in the bag. Thanks for your help!

[Paper Jam]

Grr... I do get east and west mixed up way too easily.

Anyway, by ESE I meant 5:00; ENE and ESE was indeed supposed to be WNW and WSW (and I edited it accordingly), or 10:00 and 8:00.

[Brinzy]

Gotcha. No worries. : )

I managed to do the chapter in 13 turns, because I positioned Marcus in such a way where I assumed Hector would finish Darin and Marcus could run past the throne, but he missed, so I ended up wasting a turn. I'm 1 turn behind turn count, which is a lot slower than most of these runs I see. While I am not super worried about S-ranking tactics in the end, this may mean that 32x is out of reach sadly. You can end 32x quickly, but you won't farm much XP it seems like.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Brinzy