SSB4 Marth and Lucina

[TheRepeat]

As I'm sure many of us have, I've been playing a lot of Smash for 3DS, especially with the four Fire Emblem characters. Gotta say it's great, and they're all fun. Except... I think I'm missing something with Marth.

So, I know the main difference between Marth and Lucina is that Marth does more damage at the tip of his sword and less damage on the rest of it, while Lucina's damage is a balanced middle along the entire blade. My first thought was "oh, so Lucina is a kind of skill-gate character. You play as her to get used to the mechanics, but Marth will be better since he takes more skill to use." I thought the tipper was enough to make Marth the superior character. Except, in practice, it isn't; at least in my experience so far.

Because Lucina's sword is balanced throughout, she doesn't have to rely on keeping the enemy a certain distance away. As long as her sword can touch them, it will do solid damage. This means that she actually has a useful up-smash, unlike Marth's, which is completely useless unless you land the tipper (which is more trouble than it's worth, and you should probably up-tilt instead).

Also, Marth's sword has been shortened even more since Brawl, which itself had shortened it from Melee. I'm pretty sure it's shorter than Link's sword now. Lucina's Falchion is of the same length, but if you have to get that much closer to hit someone, it's easier to just close the distance and attack than closing the distance while also worrying about landing the tipper.

And the tipper itself. In Melee, the tipper was much easier to land, and was integral to his attacks. In Brawl, the tipper was made significantly smaller and much harder to land, which continues into SSB4. This was fine and dandy in Brawl, but now he has a clone who is better off without the tipper. (And he doesn't have chaingrabs anymore, but that's beside the point.)

Ironically, I can't help but compare Marth to Roy. Roy 'sucked' because he had a poor sweetspot on his weapon, and sourspotting his attacks would hit like a wet noodle. Marth is the same way in this game. If you don't land that precise tipper, that forward-smash isn't doing anything. Meanwhile, Lucina's forward-smash is amazing, and can kill at medium percentages. Not to mention how both characters have the revamped Shield Breaker, which is basically the same thing in case their forward-smash is stale. Except Marth's Shield Breaker runs into the same problem as his up-smash: gotta land that tipper, bro. Stabbing is not Marth's strong suit.

So I'd deduced most of this while playing, but then a thought occurred to me. The two Falchions deal different damages, but what about knockback? From what I've been able to determine since then, I've found that they are pretty much exactly the same. That is, Lucina's knockback isn't distributed throughout her sword; rather, it's identical to Marth's Falchion.

An example is both character's down-aerials. I had assumed that Marth was the only one with a meteor smash, since you had to land the tipper for that to work and Lucina, well, didn't have one of those. I had also tried to land a meteor with Lucina several times and failed, but apparently those failures were just me sucking at the game, because I now know that her dair does, in fact, have a meteor smash at the tip. It seems to be just as powerful, too.

I basically dropped my 3DS at this point, completely dumbfounded. What does Marth have that Lucina doesn't? Lucina appears to be superior in practically every way to Marth, with his only advantage being that little tipper. I posit that question to anyone reading this: am I missing something with Marth? Does he have some other advantage I don't know about? I hope the great Marth doesn't have to step down from his consistent place in the upper echelons of the tier lists.

TL;DR: What's so great about Marth compared to Lucina? Thanks for the reply.

[Anacybele]

What does Marth have that Lucina doesn't? The tipper. lol

But honestly, we've had too many threads on this subject already. I thought we settled the Marth vs Lucina debate awhile ago.

[TheRepeat]

I looked for something like that for a while before posting. Guess I looked in the wrong places.

And still, the tipper seems like more of a disadvantage than anything.

[DodgeDusk]

I personally use Lucina over Marth, as I generally like characters that are more focused on rushdown. They both offer different playstyles; you can try and play Lucina as a spacing character, but Marth does that better. Unless you don't want to be punished for making a mistake, Marth ultimately offers that playstyle better than Lucina. You could even argue sourspotting with Marth yields potential combos at higher percentages (maybe? This is admittedly just theory)

[TheRepeat]

Really wanna test that now, but I wanna lay off Smash for a little while. I've already put 40+ hours into it and I only got it on Friday.

[Florete]

There's not much to consider here. You basically hit all the points already, so you just use Marth if you're good at tipping and Lucina if you don't want to bother.

What does Marth have that Lucina doesn't? The tipper. lol

But honestly, we've had too many threads on this subject already. I thought we settled the Marth vs Lucina debate awhile ago.

1. He clearly knows. It's in the second paragraph.

2. We've had maybe one or two topics on a similar subject (but not quite the same), so I don't know what you're getting at there.

[Anacybele]

He still asked in the last paragraph "what does Marth have that Lucina doesn't?" And I could've sworn we had more topics about this than that, but I guess not. My mistake.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Anacybele

[Ema Skye]

The knockback actually does differ with tipper vs. no tipper. Tipper!Marth sends people way farther than Lucina does.

Aside from that and Lucina being a bit shorter, they're basically the same.

(still have more differences than pit and dark pit :P)

[solrocknroll]

Even if they were carbon copies, I would still cherish Lucina forever. I <3 Lucina, so Lucy > Marth.

[Samias]

I saw a breakdown of damage between Lucina and Marth, and the damage difference is negligible between them with their non-tipped attacks, but Marth does a significant amount of damage more than Lucina hitting with the tip. The biggest difference is knockback, which gives Marth a slight advantage in being able to KO in the lower %s if he can land the tip. Lucina is just way easier for most players to handle but Marth isn't really worse than Lucina. If you master his mechanics, he's the better character to pick. Lucina is just an easier version of the character to play, which is entirely fine by me.

[Guy Starwind]

I changed most of Lucina's moves with her custom ones. Personally I like those more.

[Lord Raven]

I've viewed Lucina as a pressure character and Marth as a spacing character. If you have a playstyle based upon pressure then you should use Lucina, whereas if you prefer spacing then you should use Marth. Lucina can still space but she can put up pressure better than Marth.

[Straylock]

The tipper hits that Marth possesses I still think are pretty darn handy simply because of that extra knockback. I find it really helps in this game since people tend to stick around longer, meaning you usually have to get them to a much higher percentage to KO them (assuming you aren't doing any fancy aerial moves to keep them off). But I do agree that Lucina's consistent damage is quite nice. I personally find myself switching between them constantly.

Also I'm not sure if this is exactly the case, but it seems like Marth's throws have more KO potential. They seem like they do.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Nylock

[Randoman]

I thought I should throw this out there that today I've KOed a Pac-Man and Wario at 59% and 65% today with Marth's tipped forward smash at the 2/5th point of Final Destination and Omega Arena Ferox, respectively, and that was their damage after being hit by the forward smash and not before.

Tipping attacks with Marth isn't as uber difficult as everyone makes it out to be. Sure, you're not going to be tipping over 50% or more of your attacks, but tipped attacks help a ton in terms of getting Marth low percent KOs. I've found getting KOs with Lucina to be insanely tedious since her finishers are really weak compared to most of the cast. At least with Marth, you can either learn to tip your moves or get lucky and tip attacks every now and then and get a low to mid percent KO (unlike Lucina who has no such luck with that).

And if tipping moves is that hard for you, start with trying to hit with the half of Marth's sword that's near the tip, rather than the half of the sword that's near the hilt. You'd be suprised how many accidental tipped moves you'll pull off by fighting with that mindset. Besides, since Marth's sword is quite long compared to most people's melee attacks, you might as well take advantage of that long range and hit with the tip half of the sword rather than the hilt half. I mean, why are you using a character with long range melee attacks if you aren't going to exploit that long range to the fullest?

Plus, Lucina has "I'll be cut from SSB5/6" written all over her, so you might as well accept the inevitable and main Marth.

[shadowofchaos]

Lucina's Counter is more of a KO move than Marth's.

I know it's weird to think, since in Brawl I was sure that it didn't have one, but counter in this one also seems to have a tipper sweetspot.

If you want the match to last longer and rushdown, pick Lucina.

If you want playstyle focused on skill and possible gimping and low percentage KO's, go for Marth.

I find Lucina to be a lot easier to use in For Fun or with Friends, and Marth with For Glory.

You scrubs have inferior English Lucina.

Even if they were carbon copies, I would still cherish Lucina forever. I <3 Lucina, so Lucy > Marth.

昔の僕のようにワイフのアホだ、お前。

Edited October 9, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[Lord Raven]

I have had better success overall with Marth on any smash match, because of his early killing potential. Lucina just has more flexibility, but a tipper f-smash is clutch especially because I've almost always come close to the necessary spacing (although I have undershot it several times which led to punishment).

[Randoman]

I'm quite sure that both Marth and Lucina's throw knockback and counter knockback are the same, or at least very similar. I tested out both of their throws in training mode, and Marth's counter knockback has been improved greatly compared to Melee and Brawl.

Out of curiousity, for those who main Lucina, how are you able to tolerate her lack of KOing power? It's so annoying how long opponents live when fighting with her and I remember I don't have the tipper to help land a decisive/much earlier KO.

[Elieson]

It's about level dominance and timing. Waiting for an opening is a big deal as Lucina, and counter-prediction is extremely important.

I, for one, LET myself get hit on occasion when %s are low, to build a false sense of security in my opponent's mind about certain things that I'll do later in the match. You wouldn't believe how spamming down-A aerials leaves your opponent able to "Predict" that you'll do a Down-A. They often try to prep a higher-range Up-A smash or Up-B, depending on who they are, and those are the best times to utilize Down-B Counters on Luci.

Alternatively, Edgeguarding with charged ShieldBreaker can often set you up for a followup KO. Charge it up while they're recovering low, and they'll hang wide and jump/upB to ledgegrab. Prepping a quick Down-A smash takes care of that, or a jump off stage followed by an UpB while right behind them hits very hard (as damage for UpB is dependant on distance travelled, and reduces heavily as travel distance increases). You can very easily swing back and ledge grab, or hang forward and leave yourself in. This is sorta risky as if they're fast, you'll get open for a grab, but if they're at higher %, your UpB hit will send them pretty high, and let you set up for a Counter as they land.

Countering Grab-heavy opponents like Ganondorf and Cap'n can be a bit tricky because they thrive on "countering your counter". These guys require more prep and should only be countered during Aerial combat (or at least, when they're in the air). If they're off stage and at relatively high %, charge off, hit them, and recover back. It'll take some practice, but her NAir is pretty quick.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Sara.

[Randoman]

I appreciate the advice and all Sara (I do mix up my moves and try to be unpredictable and prevent stale move negation from weakening finishers or making my KOing tactics not as predictable), but I was asking more about Lucina having problems with getting low to mid percent KOs.

Barring a side smash near the stage's edge or continuous edgeguarding that doesn't get interrupted by another opponent (which happens way too often), I find my opponents percents getting way too high to the point that I find Lucina one of the worst characters to KO with in terms of doing so at low to reasonable percentages. Also, I've only been able to play against CPUs mostly in SSB4, so mind games won't really be an option against them (though I do use them against human opponents).

[Ema Skye]

Lucina has no problems getting KOs compared to the rest of the cast.

[Mighty Kamina]

Lucina has no problems getting KOs compared to the rest of the cast.

Yeah, the cast in general suffers from KO problems. The only characters I've seen who can consistently get kills at a decent percent (about 70%) are: Bowser, Ike, Donkey Kong, Ganondorf, Shulk (Especially Smash Monado), Dedede, Tippered Marth, and Little Mac.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Yeah, the cast in general suffers from KO problems.

Pretty sure his point was quite the opposite.

For some reason Lucina feels faster than Marth. Am i imagining things?

[Samias]

Pretty sure his point was quite the opposite.

For some reason Lucina feels faster than Marth. Am i imagining things?

According to the people picking apart the game, yes you are imagining things. Her attributes to Marth sans sword should be identical.

Honestly I think Lucina's KO power is still very good compared to most of the cast. She'll reach KO %s pretty fast through her speedy tilts with good range. Not as crazy as the heavies, but not nearly as long as say, Fox or Mario or something.

[Ownagepuffs]

For some reason Lucina feels faster than Marth. Am i imagining things?

Yeah you're on acid. Nah just kidding. They have identical frame data, however due to Lucina not needing a tip you spend less time trying to space which creates the illusion of a faster play style.

I think Marth is a league above Lucy to be frank, and when the Wii U version comes out and spacing becomes easier (because let's be honest, fuck the 3DS circle pad), the gap between the two will widen that much more.

[Anacybele]

That might be why I seem to have more trouble against Lucina than Marth despite their speed being the same. And this stinks because of my hate for Lucina. I'd rather lose to Marth than lose to her.