Choose You're Own Role Mafia - Game Over

[Kriemhild]

I really don't like BBM's claim because of Modmeta.

This is a really dumb reason but I really doubt Prims would give town a role that OP (see previous games by him and posts by him about giving a large town mediocre roles and a small scum OP roles).

Not a valid reason to think BBM is scum but I think it's enough to doubt his claim.

I agree in that it is a dumb reason. It's too early to be thinking about modmeta. We need to see more roles before we can make a judgment on whether Prims would do something like this or not. Whether a role is OP or not depends on the overall balance of the game, which is built up by all the other roles as well.

I still find it a bit suspicious though, because BBM somehow expects us to roleclaim to him and appoint him as a Leader (directing our actions) without presenting any evidence or even any flimsy reasoning about him being Town.

[Da Bear]

I agree in that it is a dumb reason. It's too early to be thinking about modmeta. We need to see more roles before we can make a judgment on whether Prims would do something like this or not. Whether a role is OP or not depends on the overall balance of the game, which is built up by all the other roles as well.

I still find it a bit suspicious though, because BBM somehow expects us to roleclaim to him and appoint him as a Leader (directing our actions) without presenting any evidence or even any flimsy reasoning about him being Town.

While this is true, I doubt that the ability to give town limited OC would not be considered OP in any circumstance, especially when combined with Insomniac to give him even more communication ability. OC is always powerful for town.

I agree with the second paragraph though, that was my original reason but after thinking it through I just don't think this is something Prims would do.

(Not entirely related to your post but I'm already acknowledging that I could be wrong in saying that I'm not using this as something strong enough to think BBM is scum, so it's not like I'm giving this theory much weight yet)

[Strege]

I find asking for a character claim odd because it's revealing information unnecessarily. There have been several roles that care about flavour/character (examples exist in Toonami and Avatar mafia if I'm not mistaken). Flavour can also hint at abilities (and we don't know that BBM is

fully claimed). Flavour fishing is generally not the worst, but it seems like a fine thing to inquire about at this stage. I don't find Refa scummy but I'm interested in his response to my explanation.

Refas request for a BBclaiM doesn't really mean much because role identity doesn't relate To alignment. In what world is that scummy?

Could you reword this please? I don't understand what you mean by "role identity".

Personally I don't think BBM would play this as a scum gambit, though a little doubt is usually healthy. I don't really understand town leader setups in general but I feel like the risk of implicating his scumbuddies would grow fairly quickly if scum!BBM started calling shots.

JSND, do you have any minor scumreads at this point? I can't expect much from anyone early on but it makes me slightly uneasy that you're spending a lot of your posts ensuring that people don't pass BBM off as town, but without opining about or questioning him or anyone else.

[Kay]

I think he'd totally do it as scum, Strege. It would only implicate his scumbuddies if he arranged things in a way that would, and people would have to know enough about what he had to work with and what he was doing for that to happen, which wouldn't be that easy. Leading the town is pretty much always worth it for scum imo.

Also, I got the impression the character claim request was just out of curiosity. Which is pretty null imo. I doubt in this game there's a lot for either town or scum to do based on characters, but that's just a hunch.

[Elieson]

Strege by role identity I meant for it to be synonymous with Character Claim. Role identity is just easier for me to type on my phone.

[Da Bear]

JSND, do you have any minor scumreads at this point? I can't expect much from anyone early on but it makes me slightly uneasy that you're spending a lot of your posts ensuring that people don't pass BBM off as town, but without opining about or questioning him or anyone else.

As of yet I don't see anything else really worth commenting on, I hope that changes quickly.

I have nothing there to really base a concrete read on, which is why I have not given a solid read. I'm merely wary of BBM's claim. I was going to ask why people were just agreeing with BBM's plan but then people who agreed with me showed up and the plan no longer seemed as important as the claim itself.

Although now that you mention it, I would like to know why everyone seemed so sure of BBM at first, his claim set off alarm bells for me immediately and I would like to understand what the thought process behind disagreeing responses looked like.

[Paperblade]

In a city gripped by fear and greed on streets greased by blood and tears, who is left to look out for the little guy and see if he's got any money on him?

The main problem I see with BBM's plan (other than the part where he's scum) is knowing when people are supposed to enter/exit

[Da Bear]

The main problem I see with BBM's plan (other than the part where he's scum) is knowing when people are supposed to enter/exit

BBM also claimed Insomniac, he simply keeps multiple tabs.

[SB.]

This is a really dumb reason but I really doubt Prims would give town a role that OP

shinori's touhou role

imo we don't claim to BBM unless someone can clear him or something. I probably can't get on because of timezones anyway. If it's a really dumb reason, why suggest it in the first place? I feel like you're just trying really hard to get people to mistrust BBM at this point.

Flavour can also hint at abilities (and we don't know that BBM is fully claimed).

This isn't a good thing. Why should BBM want to out any other parts to his role if he only claimed part of it?

##Unvote

##Vote: bearclaw

@Paperblade, he could just tell people to leave in IRC and then say for the next to enter in thread.

[Paperblade]

oh right

BBM's role isn't that great, Proto's role in Touhou was way better

[Strege]

Strege by role identity I meant for it to be synonymous with Character Claim. Role identity is just easier for me to type on my phone.

I'm afraid I still don't understand your comment then. If BBM's character somehow had something to do with his alignment then Refa asking him to claim it wouldn't be a terrible idea, I'd think, but I found Refa's question out of place because it wasn't relevant to alignment.

@SB: I might be misunderstanding you but I am not suggesting that BBM share possible other information about his role -- I'm saying that flavour can hint at stuff like that and fishing for flavour information isn't good because of it.

[Paperblade]

Flavor information is a two-way street. If I claimed Darth Vader and you got hooked because you were too busy being force choked, that would be suspicious.

At the same time Prims is pretty good at separating flavor and the gaym so I don't think it's a big deal

[Prims]

Day 1.1 - Votals

bearclaw13 (4) - Paperblade, Objection, kirsche, Serious Bananas

Strege (3) - eclipse, Elieson, BigBangMeteor

j00 (2) - bearclaw13, Boron

Paperblade (2) - Shinori, Kay

Refa (2) - Reinfleche, Strege

Elieson (1) - scorri

Grassbridger (1) - Refa

Reinfleche (1) - j00

Shinori (1) - Proto

Not Voting (4): Bluedoom, Grassbridger, NekoRex, Rocker64

With 21 alive, it takes 7 to deadline lynch and 11 to hammer. You have 56 hours and 10 minutes left in the day.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Professional Mafia Player

[Zkirsche]

SB is that a serious vote?

Personally I don't think BBM would play this as a scum gambit, though a little doubt is usually healthy. I don't really understand town leader setups in general but I feel like the risk of implicating his scumbuddies would grow fairly quickly if scum!BBM started calling shots.

This is a little too trusting, I'm pretty sure you were in that game where BBM threw both his buddies under the bus early, he makes these kind of gambits all the time. I'm going to take a page out of Bard's book and say that this is laking the healthy amount of paranoia that townies usually have, made worse when you realise that you're seriously advocating a D1 town leader that you're willing to give away your role to.

##Unvote

##Vote:Strege

Serious time.

[Da Bear]

BBM's role isn't that great, Proto's role in Touhou was way better

Proto's Touhou role had the fundamental weakness of scum being just as able to enter the qt as town. This stopped the ability to claim roles to each other or gain clears from all of that. BBM's role (assuming he's town) would not let scum learn other roles and would give him probably gamebreaking information. He's also Insomniac so he can just tell us who to lynch after the OC is finished in case scum shoots him.

I can not see Proto's role being superior, can you tell me why you think it is?

shinori's touhou role

Pretty much the same thing as what I said to paper. Shinori's role could benefit scum just as much as it could benefit town. It could kill town, make scum lynchproof, that kind of thing.

How could BBM's role (assuming he's town) possibly help scum in any way?

[Elieson]

Strege

Refa asked bbm to claim his character.

I don't think it matters because no matter what bbm says, it's not indicative of bbms alignment.

Therefore I don't think refa is scummy for asking bbm to claim his character.

[Elieson]

Kirsche, shining force mafia

[Refa]

I really don't like BBM's claim because of Modmeta.

This is a really dumb reason but I really doubt Prims would give town a role that OP (see previous games by him and posts by him about giving a large town mediocre roles and a small scum OP roles).

Not a valid reason to think BBM is scum but I think it's enough to doubt his claim.

I call BS on this. In Kirby Mafia, BBM was Town Gravedigger, which was also OP as fuck. In addition, the claim is easily proveable and rather specific, so I'm pretty sure his actual claim is true.

(Not entirely related to your post but I'm already acknowledging that I could be wrong in saying that I'm not using this as something strong enough to think BBM is scum, so it's not like I'm giving this theory much weight yet)

This post bothers the heck out of me, considering that the only reason I see to not go along with BBM's plan is if he's scum.

I don't find Refa scummy but I'm interested in his response to my explanation.

I believe I already responded on that?

I was curious when he said "THERE ARE NO LIMIT'S ON GOD'S POWER", but I didn't figure he'd actually pick God hahaha. I don't see how character claiming makes a difference at all, considering he explicitly stated what his role was.

Leading the town is pretty much always worth it for scum imo.

I don't believe scum would want to be town leader, because that implies having a definite stance, which scum literally just cannot do.

This is a little too trusting, I'm pretty sure you were in that game where BBM threw both his buddies under the bus early, he makes these kind of gambits all the time. I'm going to take a page out of Bard's book and say that this is laking the healthy amount of paranoia that townies usually have, made worse when you realise that you're seriously advocating a D1 town leader that you're willing to give away your role to.

##Unvote

##Vote:Strege

Serious time.

Honestly, I don't find Strege scummy for that seeing as I was seriously considering the same; only time I started to doubt was after people started posting about why it might not be such a good idea.

Proto's Touhou role had the fundamental weakness of scum being just as able to enter the qt as town. This stopped the ability to claim roles to each other or gain clears from all of that. BBM's role (assuming he's town) would not let scum learn other roles and would give him probably gamebreaking information. He's also Insomniac so he can just tell us who to lynch after the OC is finished in case scum shoots him.

Where in does BBM's role does it state that only town can enter? Where??

I'm finding bearclaw suspicious as all hell. I feel like he's throwing suspicion on BBM not because he's town with a healthy amount of paranoia, but because he's worried about BBM's role itself.

##Unvote

##Vote: bearclaw

Would vote again.

[SB.]

Serious, kirsche.

Prims probably made the setup non breakable through massclaiming like this. If we try to play the rolegame then we'll probably be punished for it.

Bizz, what are you talking about?

[Refa]

Elieson isn't Bizz, you twat.

[scorri]

Where in does BBM's role does it state that only town can enter? Where??

That wasn't the point, I don't think. I think the point was that the QT forced people to talk in the QT, make role claims in the QT, etc. Now, some discussion was had via IRC, but pretty much everything with claims was shared by kirsche and Paper. WRT IRC, only BBM would get the details. Which, if he's scum still sucks, but everyone that's a part of it doesn't get the information. Therefore it's not the same thing.

That being said, I honestly don't think his role is that OP and you need to consider it from both sides. He's likely not lying about his role. If he is, it'll be super obvious and dumb. So, if he's scum, it could be used just as easily to break the game, since scum would have all the role claims. So really, it's not something that can indicate one way or the other if he's scum or not and this rolespec is honestly getting to the point of dumb. If you have a legitimate case on BBM, cool, go ahead. If you're trying to lynch him just because of his role, nope, try again.

[Zkirsche]

Honestly, I don't find Strege scummy for that seeing as I was seriously considering the same; only time I started to doubt was after people started posting about why it might not be such a good idea.

The difference being that Strege is pushing it whereas you aren't.

This post bothers the heck out of me, considering that the only reason I see to not go along with BBM's plan is if he's scum.

Yes, and from our POV BBM can be scum. I don't see why not being open to the idea of giving someone our roles is scummy.

Modmeta is dumb but dumb =/= scum.

I don't believe scum would want to be town leader, because that implies having a definite stance, which scum literally just cannot do.

Have you been in a game with a town leader of the sort being proposed here?

[scorri]

Also, while I don't think BBM's role makes him scum, I'm also not really a fan of the whole "lets claim to BBM" thing. I think that it's too risky and honestly not worth it. If a cop were to get a guilty and didn't want to out it, then I think that there could be a use for it, but I don't think mass claiming D1 is the way to go.

[Refa]

Yes, and from our POV BBM can be scum. I don't see why not being open to the idea of giving someone our roles is scummy.

I'm not saying that thinking that BBM can be scum is wrong. At this point, I cannot say with 100% certainty that BBM is not scum, so I can't discount that possibility. What I find scummy about bearclaw is that he's literally stating that "I'm not using this as something strong enough to think BBM is scum" wherein the only reasonable scenario in which his doubts pay off is if BBM is scum. So yes, he certainly is implying that BBM could be scum without just openly stating it.

Have you been in a game with a town leader of the sort being proposed here?

Not until now, no.

[Da Bear]

This post bothers the heck out of me, considering that the only reason I see to not go along with BBM's plan is if he's scum

And we don't have any evidence either way as of yet, so it would be stupid to just go along with his plan, see?

I don't believe scum would want to be town leader, because that implies having a definite stance, which scum literally just cannot do.

I'm unsure what you mean by this. Why would scum not be able to want specific people/roles lynched?

Where in does BBM's role does it state that only town can enter? Where??

You could get your answer from BBM's plan.... he specifically answers this problem.

I'm finding bearclaw suspicious as all hell. I feel like he's throwing suspicion on BBM not because he's town with a healthy amount of paranoia, but because he's worried about BBM's role itself

Of course I'm going to be "throwing" suspicion on BBM. What would you do when it looks like the entire town is happily going along with claiming tl an unclear.

BBM's role worrying me is kind of obvious at this point, why is it scummy to not like his plan?

Also, I've never said I doubt the truthfulness of BBM's claim, I've said that I doubt his alignment. There's a huge difference.