Inception Mafia

[riariadne]

what about mafia trying to fakeclaim cop without having the actual power to do so?

That's fair

did you read my post? I exist to prove cop claims, etc. plus, I don't have to act

I don't think using a night to prove a cop scan is valuable when it means they miss out on a report, especially when it doesn't necessarily confirm them as town just that they can investigate, which could be any alignment

this is assuming we actually have a normal cop or whatever. remember how i put town tailor in a game when town had no cop, but mafia did? yeah. we don't know what's in the setup, so it's a bit of a jump to assume as such

We don't know for certain there's a mafia rolecop either, but you listed that as a reason to use your role, so I think citing a hypothetical cop is a fair example of a reason why using your role could be detrimental. Actually this applies to a few people saying "there might not be a cop"

1) i'm just saying what i've got. if people want me to prove it, go right ahead.

2) if i'm mafia; i'm literally throwing away all the utility of my role by being so open about it.

Towncred, which is what I mostly saw out of this post. kind of like a miller claim except it seemed like bullshit

also @rein: if this isn't a townie use of the tailor role, then what is? what else can I physically do with my role that I did not already describe in my opener? tell me that.

idle

I would really appreciate if you reworded your post before you voted for me Poly because I have no idea what you mean "why does messing with both town and maf matter" and mostly just said "maf rolecop won't target a mafia tailor's target" which is not relevant to what I said at all. Furet's vote is also bad and Shinori's seems questionable too

pedit Poly's most recent post is not that relevant either? yeah scummy town roles have existed before but i don't think this is one of them

[riariadne]

to restate that last part I am not voting manix only because his role is scummy but the way he announced it read as having scum intent to me

[Grace]

1) Your claim randomly on page 2

negative utility roles claim asap. why do you think miller is always claimed in someone's first post?

That's just poor and grasping for whatever you can get early in the day phase.

funny how ED1 goes, it's like that

Towncred, which is what I mostly saw out of this post. kind of like a miller claim except it seemed like bullshit

see response to shinori; negative utility roles claim asap.

idle/quote]then instead of making a fuss about it and thinking i'm scum, you could have just suggested that? there's no real reason to think i'm scum (or town, for that matter) from a claim alone.

to restate that last part I am not voting manix only because his role is scummy but the way he announced it read as having scum intent to me

so there's scum intent in being transparent with my role? okay

what about euklyd's doublevoter claim? why is his claim okay but not mine?

[Grace]

overkill quote tags, gg. i think the post is readable enough though

[Prims]

Manix is lying.

##Unvote

##Vote: Manix

[Grace]

elaborate prims.

[Grace]

you can't just say that and expect to not have to explain yourself

[riariadne]

not quoting that nightmare

you seemed intent on using your role right off the bat and that didn't read as town to me because i felt it had the potential to mess with a hypothetical town investigation role a bunch and that isn't pro-town. being transparent about it doesn't mean that the potential for interference to happen disappears. there is a lot of gut to this, as well.

the euklyd thing is not really related outside you both claiming, and while I don't think there was a good reason for euklyd to claim there i did not read scum intent out of it and am considering it null. if I did find scum intent, i would have addressed it as such. at no point did i say all earlygame claiming is scummy or whatever, or anything else that would imply that me not finding Eukly'd claim scummy is a double standard, which seems to be what you're getting at because if it isn't you didn't really have reason to mention it

[Strege]

This post doesn't quite make me want to think your role is town.

I still see your role as sooooo much stronger for scum than town. However the reason I'm not voting you is because of a slew of reasons. I technically think town tailor is also harmful for town.

1) Your claim randomly on page 2 and your posting style makes me more inclined to not instantly jump on you being scum. Because a scum tailor really has no reason to claim at all.

2) Maybe you aren't actually scum because your role really is town and I'm just biased to dislike a 'town tailor'.

Don't randomly try to play off me being scummy because I don't like your claim. That's just poor and grasping for whatever you can get early in the day phase.

"I don't like your claim" is that part that stands out to me here. Why don't you? You seem to accept the possibility of town tailor and think the D1 claim was townie, so it looks like you're just fabricating doubt here. Even if you are in the process of weighing personal bias, the fact that you did not move your vote off an RVS wagon to Manix after the last line of this post looks bad to me.

##Unvote

##Vote: Shinori

[Prims]

I'd rather not elaborate this early, but Real Talk your claim seems like a Manix Role and not a Paperblade Role if you catch my drift. Paperblade isn't me and even if he was I don't give townies roles that are 99% useless for them. If you're telling the truth then I will hold you to it that you're going to idle every night - if you're caught targeting anybody then you should be vigged/lynched immediately.

With that in mind it might be better to let roles set you out instead of rolespec since I'm so-so on your actual content.

Anyway: Rein's vote was fine for an ED1 case. kirsche's response is bad because it drastically under-represents what Rein was saying; it's a vote for Rein because his vote is "factually incorrect", not scum-intended. Furet's I am indifferent about because I don't know what to expect from him but I hope he says more when there's more to talk about.

Shinori reads like Shinori and not scum.

##Unvote

##Vote: kirsche

Bizz is also a likely scum candidate.

[Grace]

@rein: well of course i want to use my role right off the bat, why else would I have it? there are benefits enough to the downsides that make it usable.

something else I thought of: why would I want to target scummy players with my tailor to screw with cop reports? (because cops generally go for the more scummy/neutral players, not the townier players)

in what world is that remotely a good idea? i think you're still overblowing that point, and failing to realize that this isn't an rng test where my role would target randomly.

[Grace]

Bizz is also a likely scum candidate.

via hasn't even posted? they're asleep right now anyway, so i majorly fail to see anything that would support this statement

[Grace]

sorry, they posted once, in rvs. point stands though

[Prims]

if you're town then why aren't you reading the thread

hmmmm

[Shinori]

Cause I don't like it because it's not useful for town like at all.

I'm pretty sure I stated that.

AND OH.

I didn't know I was supposed to go all gung-ho on a guy that I'm on the fence about. Obviously if I'm not voting him it means I think there is logical possibility to him being town. So in other words you are just voting me for NOT voting someone that I think could be town.

That's good logic.

By the way that's sarcasm.

Now let's look at the facts: I don't like the tailor claim however I have reasonable doubt that makes me think he's town. Yet it's obviously bad that I'm not voting this person which confuses me because that leads to poor logical decisions in the future. If we are voting people because they aren't voting people they think could be town there would be a lot more poor votes going out. Now if you were voting me because I wasn't voting someone who I thought was scum it's reasonable. However you're not.

This being said even at the risk of people going "AMG OMGUS" I would like to raise my glass to you Strege and let's get this game really rolling.

##Unvote:

##Vote: Strege

[Prims]

The issue here is that it's not as easy to hold Manix accountable for his actions as he claims unless the tracker is on him every single night, and even then, something like "teehee I just so happened to target the cop's target because I didn't know". Again, he should be obligated to idle until the cop flips; if seen targeting we lynch him immediately.

[Prims]

ok shinori is town peace

[euklyd]

##Vote: Euklyd

Been called "Euk" before, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. :(

You should feel honored, that what.

re: claiming doublevote - I assumed it'd be pretty easy to puzzle out; I don't really have a way of turning it off.

I'm trying to get my thoughts on the Tailor claim+responses in order, so that'll take a bit longer.

[Grace]

The issue here is that it's not as easy to hold Manix accountable for his actions as he claims unless the tracker is on him every single night, and even then, something like "teehee I just so happened to target the cop's target because I didn't know". Again, he should be obligated to idle until the cop flips; if seen targeting we lynch him immediately.

honestly, i don't care if i have to idle. it's not like i can't take suggestions from the town

[Prims]

Another reason for Manix to idle is that if scum has any means of redirection bigger than just driver, they could easily have him fuck up town's results without him needing to be Mafia.

[Grace]

noting though; I was intending to act, per first post. don't think i wouldn't if i got a reasonable chance (cop flip, etc)

[Grace]

Another reason for Manix to idle is that if scum has any means of redirection bigger than just driver, they could easily have him fuck up town's results without him needing to be Mafia.

point taken. never thought of that.

[riariadne]

@rein: well of course i want to use my role right off the bat, why else would I have it? there are benefits enough to the downsides that make it usable.

something else I thought of: why would I want to target scummy players with my tailor to screw with cop reports? (because cops generally go for the more scummy/neutral players, not the townier players)

in what world is that remotely a good idea? i think you're still overblowing that point, and failing to realize that this isn't an rng test where my role would target randomly.

I don't think that the benefits outweight the downsides

I don't agree with this either but I will try and keep that out of this since that is mostly preference in how I play. However, say you do only target people you think are town and are town tailor- if there is a cop out there, there exists a good chance that you will not agree on every read, which could lead to potential crossfire- Prims's "oh it was an accident" thing could also apply here. also, not trying to target scummy players in particular doesn't matter for a masstailor, which you said you want to use

[Strege]

1) Cause I don't like it because it's not useful for town like at all.

I'm pretty sure I stated that.

AND OH.

2) I didn't know I was supposed to go all gung-ho on a guy that I'm on the fence about. Obviously if I'm not voting him it means I think there is logical possibility to him being town. So in other words you are just voting me for NOT voting someone that I think could be town.

That's good logic.

By the way that's sarcasm.

Now let's look at the facts: I don't like the tailor claim however I have reasonable doubt that makes me think he's town. Yet it's obviously bad that I'm not voting this person which confuses me because that leads to poor logical decisions in the future. If we are voting people because they aren't voting people they think could be town there would be a lot more poor votes going out. Now if you were voting me because I wasn't voting someone who I thought was scum it's reasonable. However you're not.

3) This being said even at the risk of people going "AMG OMGUS" I would like to raise my glass to you Strege and let's get this game really rolling.

##Unvote:

##Vote: Strege

1) Manix stated ways in which it could be useful which you haven't argued against.

2) It's not that. You end that post pretty accusatorily and so the lack of a vote stands out to me. I would expect everyone to think that everyone else /could/ be town, and I don't think I am splitting hairs over meaning here when I say that I don't find acknowledgement of that possibility relevant to whether or not you vote for someone. Also, I am voting you mostly because the doubts you do express aren't supported, and the matter of the vote is purely related to that accusatory line.

3) I for one do not read this as OMGUS and my read on you has not intensified. Cheers.

brb catching up on tailortalk.

[BBM]

Votals

Refa (1): SB

Euklyd (2): Refa, Eurykins

Prims (1): Levity

Eurykins (1): Euklyd

Rein (4): Manix, Kirsche, Parrhesia, Polydeuces

Manix (1): Rein

Kirsche (1): Prims

Shinori (1): Strege

Strege (1): Shinori

Not Voting (5): Grassbridger, Objection, j00, Kay, Scorri

Still too much time left in the phase for me to bother calculating that.

EDIT: actually fixed votals

Edited January 18, 2014 by BigBadMarshmallow