FleurDeGlace Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 This was from my role PM which analyses why I acted like I did. Urgh, apologising for my somewhat harsh post against Sangyul but I was irritated by her outbreaks throughout all of her posts. In my defense, she started toeing the line first with her comments and getting angry when I did not agree with her points. #204: My first post against her. #207: Her response which I think is still okay. #209: My response. #211: I detected a lot of confidence from her from this post. #213: And Sangyul admitted to being condescending. #214: My response to her. And things went downhill from here: #215: This post screams personal attack. "Like ... I don't even fucking know what to say to you anymore." This was about where I was pointing out her rudeness. #217: My response. Not sure if I was considered harsh in this post or not. #218: Pointing out that I liked BBM's way of phrasing his argument better. #219: Heavy personal attack again. "your apparent stupidity" "saying the same things over and over again to someone that doesn't understand it" "Look, if you honestly can't get why the fuck I voted Refa and if you think it's "weird" and that I'm only voting him on "word choices" that's your problem and I'm done explaining this to someone who's not going to understand what I am saying even if I explain it 1000 times." #221: Me trying to close the discussion with her. #224: Her bringing up the discussion again. "I apologize for the extreme rudeness of the last post, but you are seriously just ANGERING me right now" I think that this is a very superficial and insincere apology. "I'm sorry but you forced me to be like this." is how I interpreted it. #225: Probably my fault here for continuing the discussion. #227: I sense a lot of anger in this post but I don't know how to explain it. Gut feeling, if you wish. #231: Honestly, while this may have aggravated the discussion, I don't feel sorry for making this post. I can understand if it may have been the wrong thing to do but I felt that someone needed to put a check on Sangyul's using her anger and emotion as a major part of her defense and argument. Really hard to play and build a case against someone if he or she is going to flare up, make you feel bad about it and garner pity from other players and have the other players siding him or her because they felt that the player was overly pressured or bullied in the game. This came from experience on other sites and playing mafia in my circle of friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleurDeGlace Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 And I lost my mojo and mood to play the game after that. Probably should be glad that I was a target by both Kopfjäger and the mafia team on night 1 as I was considering subbing out too. Although, I don't agree with my Kopfjäger shot me as I was crumbling someone with a disabling ability throughout the game more than vigilante from the point I said I would curse our enemies. My comments about the vigilante shot was to give my opinions for the shot and not to crumb the role. I told Green Poet not to talk about it to stop scum from narrowing down who the vigilante was. If she stopped talking about it, it could still be ambiguous about whether or not I was the vigilante but further discussion led to me saying I was not. Sorry Radiant Dragon for the role speculation leading to your lynch. Partly why I felt that your claim was more untrue was because of the limited shots claim by Green Poet which matched up with my own role. That and your claim was seemingly similar to my first ability. I think you should have claimed your role fully although I felt that you have just given up then and there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Emotion is a null tell. If I'm subbing out because I'm angry, that has no bearing on my alignment. The only time when emotion isn't a null tell is when people are using it to manipulate other players, as in they're not actually feeling the emotion. They're faking it. Town and scum (and ITPs) can all get mad. While I'm not proud of the words that I used against you, I can't say I regret it because you got stuck on how I was criticizing Refa's case using only "word choice" ... and then you started harping on about my word choice. Without actually seeming to understand any of what I was trying to get across. Your posts had a tone of coming off as "condescending", like you know me when you clearly shouldn't because I've never seen you before, and I generally don't appreciate comments on why I subbed out and how I must be caving under pressure. I've subbed out at times, but I NEVER sub out because "people are being mean to me and I can't take it". To imply as such about anyone, unless they themselves admit that it's the reason why, is an insult. EDIT: In case I wasn't clear, if a person is in a mentally vulnerable mental state, or is close to cracking under pressure for whatever reason and mafia is just making them emotionally stressed, that's one thing. Implying that someone is subbing out to "run away from people putting pressure on them in a mafia game" is the insult. Edited February 25, 2014 by Sangyul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleurDeGlace Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 What I harped on was what I perceived as a contradiction and how easily your stance shifted and slanted. It may not have been directly obvious to you but I felt that you wavered in your arguments. That's why I wanted to continue pursuing it before your outbursts. Also, as I mentioned before, emotion is a null tell but it becomes annoying when emotion becomes the main part of your posts and makes it hard to read anything. Second, I did not say or imply that you couldn't handle people being mean to you. No one was being mean to you in the first place since there was almost no personal attacking apart from certain discussions that were happening. Rather, you were more the one being mean and personal to others in the thread in the first place. My comment on your subbing out may have been low and uncalled for but it had to be mentioned since some players do do that as scum to get a clean slate. I implied nothing more than that. Last, if you end up in situations where things may get ugly cause you are getting angry, you might want to think about having ways to calm yourself down while playing the game. Subbing does not solve the matter but causes things to be put on hold or dropped without being addressed thoroughly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleurDeGlace Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) @Sangyul: If you are getting angry and agitated, I suggest you take a momentary break from the game and come back to it again later. Emotion is a null tell and messes up any reads on you if it is used explicitly throughout your posts. I don't know how you normally are but I took your comment about me angering you when I stated my points as a threat for you to get angry if I do not see things your way. If that is not your intention, I apologise for that sincerely. I do not want to deal with anger or raging outbursts in a game that is a ready intense enough without this happening. No one is going to agree with you all the time and you're bound to get criticised in mafia so it's irritating if someone flares up just because others do not agree with him or her. Bolded part acknowledges what you've pointed out, that emotions mean nothing and that I don't know you. Itallicised part is my opinion on the matter and how I felt about it. I felt a threat underlying your posts and that was where I knew it would be fruitless to try to persuade you on anything else in the game. EDIT: As the underline tag doesn't work, I bolded that bit instead. Edited February 25, 2014 by FleurDeGlace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prims Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 emotion actually isnt a null tell because a townie will feel different emotions from scum in the same position it's stupid to look into it unless you know the player well though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleurDeGlace Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Also, Fleur and Green, if you guys intend to continue playing mafia here, I'd highly suggest you guys to not use "I'm sorry if I'm being too harsh" or make comments about other players' sensitivities until you know the players better. While I don't think you two had bad intentions when you used it, constantly making comments about other players' "sensitivities" when you don't even know them comes off as highly arrogant, especially when a lot of the players on SF can come off as aggressive. And on that note, irritating the fuck out of someone because you are NOT getting it and acting like you know what they're saying =/= that person is sensitive. If I hadn't subbed out on D1, the game would've got really unpleasant, really fast, and the game doesn't need that. (Also, sorry if my last post sounded a bit condescending, Fleur, didn't mean it to come off that way.) And the game was already ugly from when you were getting angry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I don't feel that I shifted or slanted my stance, and what you were harping on I feel you weren't reading correctly. And no matter how much I explained it, you didn't get it, which pissed me off. Yes, it becomes annoying when emotion becomes a large part of the other person's post, but that's when you ask yourself if maybe you're doing anything to cause it. This is a two way street. If you are doing something that is bothering the other person, it's only fair for you to ask why you are bothering the other person before telling the other person to stop getting angry. My comment on your subbing out may have been low and uncalled for but it had to be mentioned since some players do do that as scum to get a clean slate. I implied nothing more than that. It is taking an unjustified shot at someone who's already subbed out and can't go back into the game to argue that point, and should be kept to yourself. I'm sure other players are smart enough to have already taken that thought into consideration. Honestly, unless you are the mod and the person subbing out actually said that "I'm subbing out so that my slot can get a clean slate" (in which case that person should not be granted a sub out), you don't say things like that because it's rude. Third, I don't need you or anyone else telling me that "if I get angry when playing games then to find a way to calm yourself." Don't you think I know that, and when was the last time telling an angry person to "calm down" ever worked? Also, that comment of "I took your comment about getting angry as a threat" really pissed me off and offended me. I am trying to tell you WHY I am getting so angry in the first place, so maybe you can see that part from my side at least, and you just take it as a threat? Yeah ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prims Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Bolded part Itallicised part wow i havent seen anybody reply to posts like this since mancernecro played here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 emotion actually isnt a null tell because a townie will feel different emotions from scum in the same position it's stupid to look into it unless you know the player well though. The act of feeling emotion is a null tell, though. While you're right that scum and town will feel different emotions when in the same position, I see at times people using "X is getting angry and upset over something I feel is minor" as a scum tell without actually looking any further into it. So you can't say that a person is scum because they're getting emotional. You can say, however, that they feel like frustrated scum because of reasons, and as you said you need to know the player well enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prims Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 yeah it's just stupid when people say "emotion is a null tell" because it gives the wrong impression Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prims Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 stupid probably too harsh of a word for this conversation sorry but what i'm saying is that it's misleading "Sorry if you found that condescending" - mafia players, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) New players are always going to mafia in unusual ways because they're not used to SF mafia. Emotions tend to run riot as well, so new players can easily mistake it for hostility and things snowball from there. The best way for veterans to handle it is to explain what they're doing wrong in a neutral manner and try to put them at ease, because when they're less apprehensive they become easier to read. But then other veterans think you're weird and scummy for it. So in conclusion, mafia sucks. Edited February 25, 2014 by Baldrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prims Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) fleur has prior mafia experience though ~_______~ best advice i can give her is that if you and somebody are gettin mad at mafia games it's better to ask the mod to step in than to tell them to stop getting mad at you, after all, you're the one they're mad at Edited February 25, 2014 by Prims Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Well, I don't know whether the place she mafia'd at prior to this was similar to SF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleurDeGlace Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 All I did was to disagree with you? You keep saying to look at your point why don't you try listening to MINE hmm? The simple description of the scenario was: I don't see your point and feel you're misrepresenting me. You don't see my point and feel that I'm misrepresenting you. What is uncalled for is that you're implying that your own opinion is truer or more right than mine and getting angry when I did not agree with it. No one's opinions are more or less right in a game (except maybe the mod or someone who knows the setup) so it's not a given that everyone will see things in YOUR way. That is definitely not reason enough to get angry and start to imply that others are less intelligent than you just because they don't see it your way. Best scenario is to just drop the case or come back to it when you're calmer. There's what, 72 hours in a game day? I don't believe you can't just leave the game alone for 24 hours before coming back to it if you're genuinely getting upset. Next, that was how I felt about you constantly reiterating that you were angry. I felt that it was a threat to make me give in and concede to your point of view. There is no fucking way that I will give up my own opinion just because the other person is angry unless I truly believe that I'm wrong in my views and that they are right. Call it stubborn or whatever you want but you did not bring anything up that could persuade me otherwise so I don't see why I have to see things exactly as you see them or agree with you 100%. You're implying that only you can get angry at my comments but you fail to also realise that several of your comments as well as your reiteration that you were angry or getting irritated had offended and angered me as well. It is out of goodwill that I'm telling you to calm the heck down when you're angry both for the game and so you don't do or say anything you might regret in a game. You're talking about your anger issues as if you know what the problem is but you don't seem to want to be doing anything to resolve it so I find that really hypocritical. And Prims, that's likely a coincidence or due to the teaching styles here in Singapore cause as far as I know, teachers here like to underline and highlight things for students to pick out from texts and that might cause such a method of pointing out points from a text among students. As I said in PM and I'll say it here again, I'm definitely not a stinking guy and I'm definitely not mancernecro or whatever his name is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prims Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) And Prims, that's likely a coincidence or due to the teaching styles here in Singapore cause as far as I know, teachers here like to underline and highlight things for students to pick out from texts and that might cause such a method of pointing out points from a text among students.well jb is playing in eclipse's game so maybe we should see how he treats quotes while he's in his natural habitat and decide on a consensus also i don't think a giant accusatory post about why the other person is in the wrong and you're in the right is what this thread needed right now lol. Edited February 25, 2014 by Prims Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleurDeGlace Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 It definitely was slightly different but I played mostly in real life where things are different apart from the main focus of the game still being to find the lurking imposters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleurDeGlace Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I am just bloody irritated that Sangyul is saying that she's irritated that I don't see her way but she doesn't want to think that I might be feeling the same way and trying my best to explain my points to her without being rude. The entire episode is just that we do not agree with each other. That's all, in my opinion. Things just escalated based on our disagreement. I am going to leave the forum temporarily since I can tell that I'm losing my composure. I'll reply to anything else tomorrow if I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaoz Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Let's just leave it at this. I think enough has been said on the issue for the time being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 @Prims, it's the post this thread deserves, not the one it needs. @fleur IRL mafia is what I was familiar with before I started here. It's mostly vanilla since roles more complex than cop and doc are impractical, and because one actually gets the 90% of the meaning lost in internet posts it doesn't suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prims Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) generally when two people don't see things the other person's way and are mad at each other because of it, continuing to press why your points are right and the other persons are wrong only escalates things further if you're gonna advise somebody to back down and cool off then it's probably good advice for you as well. trying to get the last word is a trap also this is why i try to avoid back-and-forth arguments in mafia games. E: Typed this before I saw Kaoz's post. Edited February 25, 2014 by Prims Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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