Any particular reason Ray/Hugh lack hard mode bonuses?

[feplus]

This has always bothered me, since IIRC they are the only two enemy recruits without HM buffs.

I'm wondering whether this was an oversight, intended, or a programming bug. I'm hoping this was discussed in developer interviews or if any of the game code indicates they were intended to receive buffs. Any information is appreciated.

[Phantom037]

Douglas also lacks HM bonuses. Ray lacks them because of the way his character is loaded into the chapter (it might have something to do with the cutscene he's in at the start of the chapter, but I'm not sure). Hugh either doesn't have them for the same reason or because his recruitment method requires set stats.

[Jedi]

Yeah pretty much what Phantom said, although its more obvious in Douglas's case, because he doesn't technically join you until the next chapter.

Maybe I should mess with stat values and see what the trio would look like with HM bonuses.

[Tryhard]

I believe Ray's bonuses were planned, but they were pretty brokenly good.

[dondon151]

raigh with HM bonuses would still be a mediocre unit in the context of FE6

[Irysa]

Instant promoted HM Ray would have something like 21 magic and 14 speed, along with 30 hp and 10 def. Yooo.

[Gryz]

I don't think any playable characters were meant to get HM bonuses...

At 666C78 there is a very interesting list of character numbers.

0x17 Rutger
0x35 Cath
0x16 Fir
0x04 Shin
0x38 Gonzales
0x0F Klein
0x2E Tate
0x2A Ray
0x37 Miledy
0x3F Cecilia
0x1D Percival
0x1A Garret
0x27 Hugh
0x32 Zeiss
0x0B Douglas

It's all the recruitable enemies + Cecilia (I guess she was planned to be an enemy like Percival + Douglas at some earlier point in development)

Characters in this list aren't supposed to receive HM stat boosts - however this list only gets read when generating the initial enemies on the map. It does not get read when additional enemies are loaded via reinforcements/events, which applies to most recruitable enemies. (Ch 13 Percival gets no HM bonus; he is on the prep screen map. Ch 15 Percival gets a HM bonus; he is loaded during a turn 1 event)

So it looks like the problem is not Ray/Hugh/Douglas getting no bonuses, but rather no one was supposed get bonuses in the first place.

[Jedi]

Whoa, I had no idea... o.o

That's really interesting.

[Robert Stewart]

O_o

So hard mode bonuses were just the result of sloppy coding? Interesting.

Edit: I wonder how this slipped past QA. Did no one notice, or did they notice but leave it in?

Edited August 28, 2015 by shinpichu

[feplus]

Thanks Gryz, that's super interesting info.

So if a hacker wanted to give Hugh/Ray/Douglas HM bonuses, all they'd have to do is "load" them after the map begins?

[VincentASM]

*Mind blown*

Actually, I vaguely recall giving Raigh HM boosts by simply loading him in a different chapter. I don't remember making him a reinforcement though, but then again I don't really remember what the heck I did.

If true, this is almost as sloppy as the Hector Mode ranking data loading the Eliwood Mode ranking, leading to some crazy results in the Hector-only chapters.

[Irysa]

Gryz does something similar exist for FE7?

[bottlegnomes]

This is the single most interesting thing I've learned about Fire Emblem since at least true hit vs. displayed hit.

I have a feeling they were intended in HHM. I have absolutely no basis for saying that aside from that they didn't take them out, though. But with that in mind, my guess is one of two things: First, they noticed them and decided it was an interesting mechanic, but forgot to or couldn't add Hugh and Ray. Second, they did notice, but for some extenuating circumstances couldn't make the fix.

On a side note, I am legitimately flabbergasted that we as a community never came across this earlier, or if we did, that it didn't spread like a serenes forest fire.

Edited August 28, 2015 by bottlegnomes

[Lord Raven]

I haven't played Eliwood hard mode in a while but how does stat generation work there? If it's relatively the same as FE6 with less auto levels then that gives credence to the fact that HM boosts were intentional at that point.

[dondon151]

i thought EHM enemies don't have HM bonus levels

which may or may not be an oversight

[Dark Sage]

I'm pretty sure IS knew that this was a bug but decided to keep it in anyway because they figured it was interesting. I don't have direct evidence for this, but I'd imagine this would've been caught during playtesting. Plus they kept this mechanic in FE7.

So kind of like wavedashing in SSBM or combos in SF2.

I wonder if there's some sort of way to hack the game so the list isn't read. Douglas still wouldn't get HM bonuses (because he joins as an ally in 16x, not as an enemy), but Ray and Hugh would see a significant boost in usefulness.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Dark Sage

[bottlegnomes]

i thought EHM enemies don't have HM bonus levels

which may or may not be an oversight

I've never played past like chapter 18 in EHM, but from what I remember, the enemy stats are pretty much the same, just deployment slots are lowered and enemy density is upped some. I just remember wondering why I was playing it since it didn't seem harder that HNM and I missed out on two characters, even if one is useless.

I wonder if there's some sort of way to hack the game so the list isn't read. Douglas still wouldn't get HM bonuses (because he joins as an ally in 16x, not as an enemy), but Ray and Hugh would see a significant boost in usefulness.

I know someone did a PT with those enabled, but I don't remember if the patch was public, though I feel like it was.

Edited August 29, 2015 by bottlegnomes

[feplus]

i thought EHM enemies don't have HM bonus levels

which may or may not be an oversight

IIRC, EHM gives generic promoted enemies ten extra levels, and then HHM adds five levels to all enemies on top of this.

[bottlegnomes]

IIRC, EHM gives generic promoted enemies ten extra levels, and then HHM adds five levels to all enemies on top of this.

The 5 levels is definitely true. It's how Guy and Raven and so on get their bonuses. Not sure about the prepromote bonuses. If it is, I'm almost certain they took that out for PCs.

Edited August 29, 2015 by bottlegnomes

[Sniper Knight]

The hero here has 16 str with a base of 6 and a growth rate of 30%. If we compare him to an average 20/10 Lowen, the has the same growth rate and 7 base, they have the same strength. The screenshot is from HHM, so that would be 15 extra levels, which seems about right.

Edited August 29, 2015 by PanneKnight

[Gryz]

So if a hacker wanted to give Hugh/Ray/Douglas HM bonuses, all they'd have to do is "load" them after the map begins?

For Ray/Hugh, you just need to edit the list at 666C78 with a hex editor. For Douglas, you can edit the list to make him have HM bonuses in chapter 16, but he won't have them when he joins the team in chapter 16x since he's loaded as a player unit.

Actually, I vaguely recall giving Raigh HM boosts by simply loading him in a different chapter. I don't remember making him a reinforcement though, but then again I don't really remember what the heck I did.

Probably because you put him in chapter 1 which loads the enemies through the prebattle events.

The 2 different methods of generating HM bonuses (initial and reinforcements/events) seems to be related to why enemies in HM chapters 1-5 (before prep screen) have higher stats than expected. The enemies first get a HM bonus when loaded (initial or event), and before the battle starts, the "give HM bonus to initial enemies" function gets applied to all enemies so they receive a second HM bonus. So putting Ray in chapter 1 gives him a HM bonus (loaded during prebattle cutscene) but not the second HM bonus (because he's on the 666C78 list).

Gryz does something similar exist for FE7?

Nope. In order to receive a HM bonus, FE7 checks for hard mode, Hector mode, and the unit is an enemy.

In FE8, recruitable enemies don't get HM bonuses because the game blocks bonuses to enemies with a character number less than or equal to 0x3B.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Gryz