Rate the Unit, Day 37: Lucia

[Hawk King]

@Snowy

Haar starts with 25 points towards SPD on fixed mode. 2 Bexp LV ups with an iron axe and SPD band will get him 90 more points thus giving him a point of SPD. Hell, 1 LV up in his join Chapter without a band and 1 Bexp LV with an iron axe and SPD band will give him a point of SPD. With an 18 AS Haar will double 41 out of 54 enemies in Chapter 24 (The boss and BK are included in this). 8 of the 13 he doesnt double are Swordmaster/Myrmidons, and 2 are the boss and the BK.

What do you mean when you say Haar has trouble doubling? He will easily double (and 1RKO) 70-80% of the enemies in every map, even without a speedwings.

[Snowy_One]

To give a perspective of how they were doing against high and low defense enemies. Try to keep up.

When I pointed out that Rolf's combat was relatively equal to Astrid's, people cried bloody murder and did everything they could to denounce it, including things like movement and joining level. I'm just going to return the favor here.

But he'll still be able to double all the slow to mid speed enemies, and he'll do a lot more damage to them than Lucia. Also, Haar needs one speedwings to become another solid flying unit, which is always nice. You get one in chapter 13. At that point, most of your mains will either have good enough speed or are Mak/Astrid who have access to bexp and the KW to fix any speed problems. So why not save it for Haar? And Lucia is going to need a lot more than one energy drop to fix her issues. Try both energy rings, a seraph robe, and a dracoshield, probably two.

Because Haar is going to only be around for a scarce few chapters. I'm better off giving the wing to someone like Mordi who will be around for much longer than a flier who is simply not going to exist and will be of debatable (at best) value.

First off, name one unit who benefits more from brave weapons than Haar. I'm willing to bet you can't legitimately do it.

If we're going to talk 'who can benefit the most' then, once again, why not dump a load of BEXP on Rolf? He certainly gets the most out of it at his joining time.

Also, the generals would love the brave lances as would Devdan.

This isn't true for silver forges. A shitton of people, like Titania, benefit more from them than Lucia. Second, if we have a full team already, why is Lucia's mediocre, at best, offense better than Haar's similar, if not superior offense, massive durability lead, and move? As for her offense, she constantly needs silver forges. Haar can get out of needing brave weapons with a speedwings, which I've already covered, and some bexp.

We also have a lot more forges than brave weapons. Seven silver forges compared to one brave axe and one brave lance. Plus, how does Titania benefit more from it than Lucia? Titania has decent offense and access to axes while Lucia does not. Titania doesn't benefit much more than with a normal silver. Lucia becomes able to 1RKO. Since you seem to be using that standard for Haar, I'll use it as well.

But he can against plenty of enemies, which aku chi so nicely covered. Then there's the fact that he'll actually get to the enemies.

Yes, because our mega-team of paladins will rip through all enemies meaning Haar needs that speed in order to keep up. Of course, with such a mega-team, using another, late-joining flier who needs BEXP is flat out stupid and unneeded. Sure, Lucia is as well, but the way I see it is this. If Lucia's redundant because other people have better offense, than so is Haar for the same reasons. If Lucia is useless because no mounted movement, not only do you care waaaaaaay too much about movement, but you're clearly focusing on low turn counts, so Haar's late joining is useless and possibly harmful since you need to leave Jill back to recruit him. Either way, claiming Lucia is useless makes Haar useless by the exact same standards.

Again, name the units who benefit with a brave weapon than Haar. Between the lance and axe he's got 60 uses, which will last a while. Giving Lucia two forged silvers gives her 50, which will also last a while, uses and takes forges away from other people who benefit from them more.

I would question why the hell Lucia needs 50 uses to last for the few remaining chapters unless you were putting her in such mega-combat that the question of her value would already be answered on a personal level.

Astrid without EP and with worse move vs a second Jill essentially.

Astrid without EP and worse move for the majority of the game vs. a sluggish Jill who barely even exists. I'll take the Astrid please. Join time is far more important than movement in this case.

He can fly on a map that has an absurd amount of obstacles. Then there's the fact that a bunch of reinforcements spawn around the time he's getting recruited. It is probably a bit high, but he's still got a pretty good chance at getting some decent exp.

Sure, if he appeared right at the start. He does not.

Basically you're telling me that I should field an inferior unit who needs constant silver forges, which get expensive, a bexp dump, and has footie move and terrible, terrible durability just because she does mildy better than someone else at combat against a few fast enemies even though I only have her for even fewer chapters? That seems utterly stupid and wasteful to me.

I'm telling you that you should field a unit who can become passable with only a silver forge over a unit whose only redeeming value is his flight and has to rely on irreplacable weapons just to fight semi-decently.

What are you talking about? There are a bunch of reinforcements that spawn in the east of C23 with Haar. He can easily nab a level here in even the fastest of playthroughs.

I would assume the fastest of playthroughs would require Marcia, Jill, and Tanith to fly to the end, possibly carrying Ike, to end the chapter as quickly as possible without worrying about the mines. Not only does recruiting Haar mean he needs to spend the time spawning, but Jill needs to be there as well, making such a thing difficult at best.

No. I'm telling you that Lucia doesn't even win offense against Haar. Haar beats Lucia's offense and crushes her durability and mobility. Haar also has utility irrespective of his combat by virtue of being the most durable unit with the best movement type (only Jill is close). Haar can execute rescue-drops in hot areas in C25 and C28. You can use Lucia if you like. But know that Haar is just plain better, no matter how you look at it.

Haar is better when I obsess over movement and low turn counts, dump BEXP into late-joining units who don't make good use of it, and give them forges. Got it.

Now seriously. I want you to shut up. I cast my vote here and it wasn't even the highest vote in favor of Lucia. Only Bottlegnomes and Hawk King voted lower than me after you remove personal preference (which has no bearing on stats). As far as I can tell, you're getting mad and furious because someone didn't agree with you in a rating topic and made the mistake of saying he felt that this unit was better than one you loved. This isn't the first time you've done this and, if this continues, I will put you on ignore as I'm sick of this harassment by elitist tier players.

[Hawk King]

@Snowy

Please read my last post. Haar needs at most 400-500 Bexp and as little as 200-300.

Im not mad or upset that you think Lucia is better than Haar. Im just trying explain to you that you are wrong.

Also giving Mordicai a speedwings is just retarded but im not even gonna bother with that one...

[Sniper Sirius]

1/10. Utterly useless...

Reading some of these arguments...man. Just because a unit isn't as good as another doesn't mean bad. Also doesn't make a crappy unit better.

"marcus becomes totally useless once i get zealot. since marcus is totally useless because i have zealot, wolt and bors automatically become more useful that marcus."

Also since when does Lucia beat anyone in combat?

Snowy, you say that Lucia has better combat than Haar? Did you totally just miss aku chi's post? Haar completely demolishes Lucia in combat.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Sniper Sirius

[dondon151]

This isn't the first time you've done this and, if this continues, I will put you on ignore as I'm sick of this harassment by elitist tier players.

see you immediately jump to the conclusion that we're elitists but you completely ignore the more parsimonious conclusion

which is that you're dumb as petrified poop

[I.M. Gei]

Now seriously. I want you to shut up. I cast my vote here and it wasn't even the highest vote in favor of Lucia. Only Bottlegnomes and Hawk King voted lower than me after you remove personal preference (which has no bearing on stats). As far as I can tell, you're getting mad and furious because someone didn't agree with you in a rating topic and made the mistake of saying he felt that this unit was better than one you loved. This isn't the first time you've done this and, if this continues, I will put you on ignore as I'm sick of this harassment by elitist tier players.

Haha, typical Snowball, waxing his aircraft carrier-sized persecution complex and convincing himself that everything's a matter of him against the world, with the world obviously playing the role of the villain.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Black★Rock Shooter

[bottlegnomes]

When I pointed out that Rolf's combat was relatively equal to Astrid's, people cried bloody murder and did everything they could to denounce it, including things like movement and joining level. I'm just going to return the favor here.

Except you completely ignored everything like move, likelihood of actually reaching similar levels, and all the same stuff you're ignoring here. Haar has none of those issues. If anything Lucia does.

Because Haar is going to only be around for a scarce few chapters. I'm better off giving the wing to someone like Mordi who will be around for much longer than a flier who is simply not going to exist and will be of debatable (at best) value.

You get a ridiculous amount of bexp in the chapters after Haar joins. Are you really going to dump all that bexp on Mordi at this point?

If we're going to talk 'who can benefit the most' then, once again, why not dump a load of BEXP on Rolf? He certainly gets the most out of it at his joining time.

Do you know the meaning of benefit? Rolf benefits least from a bexp dump. Marcia becomes death on wings. Mist promotes and gets a horsey for staff utility. Rolf goes from being a terrible combat unit to a bad combat unit.

Also, the generals would love the brave lances as would Devdan.

You mean those guys that won't ever actually see combat because they fall behind so quickly?

We also have a lot more forges than brave weapons. Seven silver forges compared to one brave axe and one brave lance. Plus, how does Titania benefit more from it than Lucia? Titania has decent offense and access to axes while Lucia does not. Titania doesn't benefit much more than with a normal silver. Lucia becomes able to 1RKO. Since you seem to be using that standard for Haar, I'll use it as well.

You really don't understand what benefit means do you? Titania has trouble ORKOing without a forge. She has none with one. Lucia has trouble either way.

Yes, because our mega-team of paladins will rip through all enemies meaning Haar needs that speed in order to keep up. Of course, with such a mega-team, using another, late-joining flier who needs BEXP is flat out stupid and unneeded. Sure, Lucia is as well, but the way I see it is this. If Lucia's redundant because other people have better offense, than so is Haar for the same reasons. If Lucia is useless because no mounted movement, not only do you care waaaaaaay too much about movement, but you're clearly focusing on low turn counts, so Haar's late joining is useless and possibly harmful since you need to leave Jill back to recruit him. Either way, claiming Lucia is useless makes Haar useless by the exact same standards.

Except Haar has other uses, and better combat, which we've covered several times. He can rescue better than any other unit in the game. Haar beats Lucia in combat, durability, move, and utility. If Haar is flat out unneeded, then Lucia is even moreso.

I would question why the hell Lucia needs 50 uses to last for the few remaining chapters unless you were putting her in such mega-combat that the question of her value would already be answered on a personal level.

You made a big deal of how many uses of brave weapons there were. And no, even at 20 Lucia still has shitty combat. At 20 Haar doesn't even need the brave weapons anymore. This gives him 1-2 range on top of dealing more damage.

Astrid without EP and worse move for the majority of the game vs. a sluggish Jill who barely even exists. I'll take the Astrid please. Join time is far more important than movement in this case.

Rolf does nothing on 90% of 20 chapters. Haar does something on 90% of 5 chapters. .1x20=2. .9x20=4.5 Even math disagrees with you.

Sure, if he appeared right at the start. He does not.

His appearance is triggered by moving a certain distance on the map. It's about halfway. He has half a chapter to do stuff and has a reasonable chance of catching up to your other units thanks to flight. Lucia appears slightly earlier, say a quarter of the way through, but there are no enemies for her to fight, except a berserker reinforcement and she's never catching up because it's a big, wide open chapter.

I'm telling you that you should field a unit who can become passable with only a silver forge over a unit whose only redeeming value is his flight and has to rely on irreplacable weapons just to fight semi-decently.

This is so very wrong. Lucia needs a silver forge at least to become passable. She'll probably need more. Her durability makes exposing her on EP a big risk, something you have against Bastian, might I remind you. Haar has comparable, if not better combat, and can actually do stuff on EP. His flight is hardly his only redeeming quality.

I would assume the fastest of playthroughs would require Marcia, Jill, and Tanith to fly to the end, possibly carrying Ike, to end the chapter as quickly as possible without worrying about the mines. Not only does recruiting Haar mean he needs to spend the time spawning, but Jill needs to be there as well, making such a thing difficult at best.

Again, Haar's recruitment isn't determined by turns, but by crossing a certain point. I've had him spawn on turn 2 and turn 15. So he's guaranteed to have at least half the chapter to do stuff.

Haar is better when I obsess over movement and low turn counts, dump BEXP into late-joining units who don't make good use of it, and give them forges. Got it.

No, Haar is always better, unless I fap to huge growth rates. Saying Lucia is better than Haar is the exact same as saying Vika is better than Volug (hint: she isn't).

Now seriously. I want you to shut up. I cast my vote here and it wasn't even the highest vote in favor of Lucia. Only Bottlegnomes and Hawk King voted lower than me after you remove personal preference (which has no bearing on stats). As far as I can tell, you're getting mad and furious because someone didn't agree with you in a rating topic and made the mistake of saying he felt that this unit was better than one you loved. This isn't the first time you've done this and, if this continues, I will put you on ignore as I'm sick of this harassment by elitist tier players.

Again so much wrong with this. First off, I'm by no means an elitist tier player. If I were, would I use Rolf and Shinon as much as I do (about half my total PTs so 8 PTs)? Second, Lord Raven also voted lower than you. And since you posted yet another person has voted lower. That's over half the ratings. Third, I don't particularly love Haar. Now you're just pulling stuff out of your ass, though that's nothing new. I'm not getting mad (that's you); I'm just trying to show you you're wrong, because you are. And I think dondon is on the right track:

see you immediately jump to the conclusion that we're elitists but you completely ignore the more parsimonious conclusion

which is that you're dumb as petrified poop

This is all of the second time I've done this. The other with was with Raven and his Tormod rating. And he didn't throw a hissyfit about it. If you want to ignore me go ahead, though if you're really going to do it, I'm surprised you haven't ignored over half the users on SF already.

On a completely off topic note. Out of curiosity, why don't you ever capitalize anything, dondon?

Edited May 12, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[Dark Sage]

This isn't the first time you've done this and, if this continues, I will put you on ignore as I'm sick of this harassment by elitist tier players.

You could put us on ignore, but since you already ignore the fundamentals of what people say anyway, I don't think you'll get much of a change in your experiences on this board.

[dondon151]

On a completely off topic note. Out of curiosity, why don't you ever capitalize anything, dondon?

this track of discussion does not deserve a serious response

[Samias]

Now seriously. I want you to shut up. I cast my vote here and it wasn't even the highest vote in favor of Lucia. Only Bottlegnomes and Hawk King voted lower than me after you remove personal preference (which has no bearing on stats). As far as I can tell, you're getting mad and furious because someone didn't agree with you in a rating topic and made the mistake of saying he felt that this unit was better than one you loved. This isn't the first time you've done this and, if this continues, I will put you on ignore as I'm sick of this harassment by elitist tier players.

I'm not really into elitist play. I use Rolf more often than Astrid, and I've even used Rolf without using the usual suspects of Titania, Marcia, Jill, or Kieran (I don't think I've ever not used Oscar). There's even been a couple of times where Rolf managed to make it into my top 5. Soren, despite horrible movement speed, usually ends up as my mage of choice. I used to dump bexp on Rhys so he could have combat, and then do a token dump on Mist just so she could heal Ike for a single chapter. I've even hoarded bexp in one playthrough for Elincia to see if it was worth it (short answer: no). I don't LTC, but because I don't, that makes Lucia even worse, because I've babied other similar units who will almost undoubtedly have better stats than Lucia, especially from the 2nd playthrough onward. By comparison, Lucia is fragile and her offences feel anemic for what I expect from a unit of that level. She doesn't come with anything particularly noteworthy like Calill's Meteor tome and B-rank magic, Tauroneo's Resolve, Tanith's Reinforce, Stefan's Vague Katti and S rank swords, or Geoffrey's Paragon. All of these units have something about them that makes them stand out in some manner. Lucia instead joins the likes of Devdan and Bastian as a unit who has a clear problem right off the bat. Lucia's EP is a nightmarish exercise with fingers crossed that she doesn't get hit, ever, since she gets 2-3HKOd by pretty much everything left to face in the game. Even on my most casual of playthroughs, Lucia just stood out as a liability waiting to happen.

[bottlegnomes]

this track of discussion does not deserve a serious response

Anyway, I think Samias summed it up pretty well. On LTC Haar is actually fairly good thanks to flight, good move, and decent combat with some resources. Lucia is next to useless. On non-LTC, Haar is still decent thanks to being able to do stuff not everyone can. Lucia gets even worse because you've leveled people up more so she looks even worse by comparison.

Edited May 12, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[eclipse]

Uh. . ."elitist" play makes it sound really presumptuous. LTC is one play style, efficiency is semi-related, and then there's "stuff your favorite units to the brim so you can destroy everything with them", and things in-between. It's not too much of a stretch to say that you'll have to work more to get certain characters up to speed.

[CrashGordon94]

2/10

She's crap but she can do SOMETHING and be salvaged if you really want to use her, +1 bias for being hot and a very likable character for 3/10

[ZemZem]

Geez, what an argument...

Tallying.

[Snowy_One]

Haha, typical Snowball, waxing his aircraft carrier-sized persecution complex and convincing himself that everything's a matter of him against the world, with the world obviously playing the role of the villain.

Look at it from my point of view. We're in a rating topic where we rate how we feel about certain characters value based on our own personal interpretations of their value. I made a rating that was among the lower ratings. Now I'm being told I'm wrong and I should be rating her lower and it's become a full-on argument because a bunch of tier players can't stand the notion that someone thinks Lucia is more valuable than Haar.

Also, the funny thing is, it often is the 'world' against me with the 'world' acting like a group of incomprehensible morons who feel that they're right when they can't even grasp simple points and arguments. So if such a thing is true and I do have such a complex, then don't you think siding against me and telling me I'm a wrong, stupid, idiot is only going to reinforce such an idea and make it worse? This 'complex' didn't spring from nowhere and isn't self-sustaining after all.

[ZemZem]

Now, I disagree with you about Lucia > Haar, but RTU threads are about personal preference toward units.

[Dark Sage]

Look at it from my point of view. We're in a rating topic where we rate how we feel about certain characters value based on our own personal interpretations of their value. I made a rating that was among the lower ratings. Now I'm being told I'm wrong and I should be rating her lower and it's become a full-on argument because a bunch of tier players can't stand the notion that someone thinks Lucia is more valuable than Haar.

some retard: 2+2 = 5

other people: uh no, 2+2 = 4

some retard: 2+2 = 5!

other people: you're fucking retarded

some retard: FUCK YOU ELITISTS THIS IS MY OPINION GO DIE!

Also, the funny thing is, it often is the 'world' against me with the 'world' acting like a group of incomprehensible morons who feel that they're right when they can't even grasp simple points and arguments.

So if such a thing is true and I do have such a complex, then don't you think siding against me and telling me I'm a wrong, stupid, idiot is only going to reinforce such an idea and make it worse? This 'complex' didn't spring from nowhere and isn't self-sustaining after all.

Nice sig btw, I wonder if people like it as much as I do.

[CrashGordon94]

Now, I disagree with you about Lucia > Haar, but RTU threads are about personal preference toward units.

What about this?

And Lucia versus Haar doesn't sound quite as deterministic as 2+2.

[aku chi]

Snowy_One, I don't give a damn what numeric scores you award certain units. But when you post something that is factually incorrect (such as: Lucia has better combat than Haar), I'm going to call you out on it. I analyzed enemy data for chapter 27 to back up my assertion that Haar's combat is better than Lucia's. My hope was that you would examine the facts, and reach the appropriate conclusion. You did not. I didn't craft this argument solely for your benefit; I was curious myself. And I was actually surprised how useful the Runesword came to be in Lucia's hands. Lucia's offensive potential is generally underestimated. It's certainly better than the likes of Volke, Janaff, and Ulki. But it is not better than Haar's.

[Colonel M]

I give Haar a brave axe, he attacks twice.

I give Lucia a brave sword, she attacks four times.

Lucia's attacks may be weaker, but she also attacks far more.

Attacking far more is irrelevant when Haar is avoiding a counter most of the time, thus improving his durability.

If Haar only gained a whopping 2 Levels (Level 13) before Lucia joins, Haar has 32 Atk with the Brave Axe. Lucia with her Silver Dildo has 33. Yes, it's true that Haar loses in Atk by one in this scenario, but Lucia also has to take a weapon that has eighteen might to beat Haar's Atk when he's wielding 10. Let's also not forget this excludes ranged weaponry, where Lucia's only answers are Wind Sword and Runesword, which are probably given to Mia with Spirit Dusts.

(For the outsiders, this is a joke).

Oh yes, and Brave Lance has 11 Mt, which ties Lucia's Atk. Wow.

Let's look at Haar vs. Lucia with Haar only gaining three levels like aku chi predicted (at the bar minimum) versus Chapter 25.

14 Haar - 48.95 HP | 21.35 Def | 10.6 Res

Brave Axe - 32.8 Atk | 18.05 AS

Lucia - 36 HP | 10 Def | 8 Res

Silver Dildo - 33 Atk | 23 AS | 34 Crit

Vs. Strongest Cats - 42 hp, 27 atk, 18 AS, 114 hit, 38 avo, 18 def, 9 res, 8 crit, 2 cev

Haar will do roughly 30 damage with the Laguz Axe, while Lucia does 30 with the Silver Dildo or Laguzslayer.

I also rounded down on Haar's Str, too. Granted, Lucia has the minor crit advantage, which would give her a slight edge here over Haar offensively.

Defensively, the Cat's 27 Atk 9HKOes Haar while it 3HKOes Lucia.

Also, consider that Haar's single strike means that the Cats barely need to be scratched (12 damage) in order to KO them in one hit. For Lucia to do the same, the Cat has to suffer 27 damage. To compare, base Bastian with a Fire tome does 16 damage - more than enough for Haar to follow-up with a KO.

Vs Raven - 38 hp, 21 atk, 20 AS, 124 hit, 42 avo, 14 def, 11 res, 8 crit, 2 cev

If Haar procs Str, he ORKOes the Raven with Brave Axe (33-14=19 damagex2=38). Meanwhile, Lucia is stuck doing 20 damage with a Brave Sword or 19 with Silver Dildo.

Haar doesn't even take damage in this scenario, but even if he did, the Raven's beak breaks on Haar's manly skin. Lucia takes 11 damage, or a 4HKO.

Vs. Lv 6-7 Warriors - 46 hp, 27 atk, 12 AS, 94 hit, 29 avo, 12 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 5 cev

Oh yeah, by the way, consider me generous, since I could've named the one with 49 HP | 13 Def.

Haar naturally doubles these enemies regardless, so now we could pull out forges. Forged Hand Axes have 12 Mt while forged Steel Axe has 16. Remember that Haar has 22.8 Str.

Even calculating the toughest Warrior, Haar ORKOes with the Steel Axe forge. If Haar gains a Str proc, he ORKOes the Lv 6-7 Warriors with the Hand Axe forge, thus never receiving a counterattack from them. If Lucia has her Silver Dildo out, she misses the ORKO (22 damage per strike).

Haar will take a 9HKO once again while Lucia is 3HKOed again. Though, if you're asking Avoid... Lucia faces 22% Displayed. Then again, Haar faces 46% Displayed, so he can roughly dodge at least 1 out of 2 timees.

Vs strongest Swordmaster - 34 hp, 28 atk, 21 AS, 123 hit, 47 avo, 11 def, 7 res, 24 crit, 5 cev

Brave Lance has 11 Mt somehow... but no matter, Haar ORKOes them with the Brave weapons. Lucia misses doubling on this one, so the Brave Sword is to be called upon. By the power of the Gods she does...

...26 damage.

Haar takes, at worst with the Brave Lance equipped, 18 damage. Lucia, if struck upon, would die even if critical was only x2. Even though the Swordmaster doubles Haar, 36 damage is certainly not KOing Haar.

Vs. the strongest Halberdier - 42 hp, 25 atk, 15 AS, 105 hit, 35 avo, 14 def, 9 res, 7 crit, 5 cev

Why I named the strongest? The others are slow enough for Haar to double and ORKO with Steel Axe forge.

This is the one where Haar might lose since the most he can do is 38 damage while Lucia can critical and do 36 damage at worst. Though, if Haar is given the Speedwing, he doubles and ORKOes this fellow too.

Lucia, once again, is 3HKOed while Haar takes... 3 damage, or a 17HKO.

tl;dr - pretty much what aku chi stated. Haar can usually match Lucia's combat at worst or do better in most scenarios. With the Brave weapons, Haar's durability does nothing but improve further as well. Meanwhile, Lucia is reliant on Silver Dildos to match Haar's offense, which have only been available for 3 chapters.

It's also very difficult to at least match Haar in durability. Even Jill, who is probably the second closest flying-wise, doesn't obtain 21 Def naturally until 20/12 and match Haar's base HP until 20/19. That says a lot.

Also, one speedwing? Why would I hold onto something like that for that long just so Haar can take it? Might as well hold on to a energy drop for Lucia if that's the case.

Well, if you really wanted to you could hold onto both Speedwings, but we aren't going to sandbag Lucia much further than what we are already.

Lucia with the drop doesn't change a whole lot to be honest. She still fails to ORKO the Cats (she goes from 30 damage to 34, out of 42) and she still can't ORKO that Halberdier (40 damage out of 42 HP). Hell, she still can't ORKO the Swordmaster I mentioned with the Brave Sword (30/32 HP). The only thing that drastically changes is:

- She ORKOes the Warriors I mentioned. Not the tougher ones; they're still a little out of her reach (she does 46 damage to 13 Def ones).

- She ORKOes the Laguzslayer Swordmaster.

- She ORKOes the Knight Killer Halberdier.

She'll also do 26 damage to Gromell if she can somehow encounter him, so she 2RKOes... though I think at that point he would fly off and use the Elixir. I don't quite recall his AI in this scenario. Op, scratch that - this dude has Resolve. She would miss doubling him after that.

So it does change a little bit, but she still fails to take more than roughly 4 blows out of the entire encounter. Not to mention Haar could also take that Energy Drop and ORKO the tough Halberdier here and prop a 2RKO on Gromell just like Lucia.

Other units who can use axes want it as well, especially since they can both avoid counters and manage to deal four attacks-worth of damage instead of Haar's puny two.

Yes, but how many of those units, in Chapter 25, can fly and use the Brave Axe.

...Wait...

...you can only mention Haar?

The only possible unit that could probably use it here is Boyd with Vantage, but that assumes a) we're using Boyd, b) we're using Vantage on Boyd, and c) he's being ferried to the destination. Haar can (roughly) replicate what Boyd is doing with Vantage on him as well, though even without it, Haar isn't really in huge amounts of fear of dying anyway.

Also, the only reason you would take the Brave weapons away from Haar is to avoid counterattacks, but that doesn't completely change that they're likely taking counterattacks on the Enemy Phase to begin with. If Titania ORKOes with Brave Axe and ORKOes with the Silver Axe forge, why does it matter that she puts on the Brave Axe on Player Phase when it requires a second unit to come over there and trade the weapons around to possibly take blows on the Enemy Phase? Not that, in the scenario of Chapter 25, your Paladins are doing a whole lot since the terrain is kind of bending against them at the moment. We don't want to exactly waste the weapons; we want to put these weapons to good use. Putting them on Boyd w/Vantage or Haar is good use. Putting them on Titania to avoid a counterattack for a single turn isn't exactly the most optimal use.

So either a silver forge, of which I have multiple

You have a possible of 3 Silver forges.

You have a line of Paladins and flying units that would like them for some of the tougher enemies around here.

I honestly don't think Lucia crosses my mind as the first recipient of those items.

If Haar takes a weapon with enough MT to beat Lucia, Lucia beats him because he now can't double. If he takes a weapon that allows him to double, Lucia has more MT. Either way, Haar looses.

Uh, bullshit.

- Lucia needs to take a Silver Dildo to beat Brave Lance Haar's Atk by a single point.

- Haar can ORKO enemies with a Steel Axe forge that are slow enough. Enemies like that do exist in the game.

- Haar still has extra Mov, durability, and re-move.

I don't see Lucia winning this other than, in situations where they both never ORKO an enemy, she has a chance to proc a critical attack.

So you're willing to dump BEXP on Haar, a unit you have for only a few chapters, but not Rolf? Especially since Haar is still lack-luster after the dump.

...

When I pointed out that Rolf's combat was relatively equal to Astrid's, people cried bloody murder and did everything they could to denounce it, including things like movement and joining level. I'm just going to return the favor here.

...

If we're going to talk 'who can benefit the most' then, once again, why not dump a load of BEXP on Rolf? He certainly gets the most out of it at his joining time.

There are a slew of issues with Rolf in this game:

- He needs BEXP to be even close to "competent" (no, chipping an enemy does not provide saving graces). To be fair, so does Astrid, but when she chips she also obtains a whopping 30 CEXP. Rolf in his chapter gains roughly half for chipping an enemy.

- He is only allowed to attack once per turn, except in the rare scenarios that Reyson refreshes him (which to ask, why) or if a bow user is in range of him in the Enemy Phase (or possibly a Sage that can only strike him from 2 range). Yes, once again, so does Astrid, but that only is the scenario in an unpromoted state of Astrid.

- Rolf does not have Paladin-like movement like Astrid does.

- Rolf lacks Paragon like Astrid has, which means BEXP-plowing is a cheaper investment.

- BEXP is a little more scarce if we're doing things like forcing a swallow on Jill and / or Marcia (especially both) in comparison to later in the game, where the only unit that might actually need it is Ike if he's barely been touched.

Of course one can justify using Rolf and possibly putting BEXP on him to become a slightly better unit (or at least one that can actually be trained and be slightly self-sufficient) and actually have victories on some units such as Ena, Bastian, and the aforementioned Lucia. Even so, taking on Astrid, a unit that takes roughly half the cost of using Rolf, is damn-near suicide.

Rolf could be used, but in a game where you can take any horse / flier into Jebus Christ mode, it's almost irrelevant. Even Soren and Ilyana have closer claims to BEXP before Rolf.

Because Haar is going to only be around for a scarce few chapters. I'm better off giving the wing to someone like Mordi who will be around for much longer than a flier who is simply not going to exist and will be of debatable (at best) value.

You also went on a rant how Mordecai sucks because most people value him merely as a shover / smiter.

Giving the wing to Mordecai isn't exactly an awesome idea, either. It still takes some time for Mordecai to transform and actually obtain those uses, and the Demi Band cuts some of his power back. By the time the Demi Band arrives, Mordecai is probably all but useful. Maurim arrives and pretty much shreds him in offensive parameters by a mile; especially in the scenario that Mordecai probably didn't get much CEXP to begin with (unless he used the Laguz Stone).

Also, the generals would love the brave lances as would Devdan.

I'm going to pretend that you didn't mention a 6 Mov unit that is difficult to Shove around as a counterargument for Brave weapons.

As for Devdan, he would need roughly 12 levels to even match Haar's Str. His Spd problems at that point would almost be irrelevant, since he would have 20.8 Spd at that point.

Titania doesn't benefit much more than with a normal silver.

That depends on how much Titania has also been used as well.

...I'm going to take a stray guess and say by Chapter 26 she would be roughly Level 15, and she would have roughly 7 levels with the Str band and 8 with the Knight Ward.

18.65 Str | 23.9 Spd

Steel Axe forge - 34.65 Atk

Let's start with the Paladins.

3x Paladin lv 7-8 (steel bow, 1 steel lance, 1 steel sword)

36 hp, 25 atk, 17 AS, 96 hit, 40 avo, 17 def, 10 res, 5 crit, 6 cev

This one was pulled merely because it was first.

To ORKO, she would need a Str proc or her B Mist support near her (or Rhys or Boyd at B and near her too I guess). But let's hit something tougher:

1x Paladin lv 10 (silver sword [d])

39 hp, 30 atk, 17 AS, 111 hit, 41 avo, 18 def, 11 res, 6 crit, 7 cev

Even with the Str proc she would miss, and she would miss the ORKO even with the B supports near her.

1x Halberdier lv 10 (steel lance, short spear)

43 hp, 25 atk, 15 AS, 107 hit, 35 avo, 15 def, 9 res, 8 crit, 5 cev

This one would require, once again, to have her supports near her to ORKO.

1x Wyvern Lord lv 9 (silver lance)

44 hp, 34 atk, 13 AS, 112 hit, 31 avo, 22 def, 9 res, 8 crit, 5 cev

And these ones would definitely require the Silver forge to ORKO.

There are situations where Titania can use the Silver forge, since it frees her from needing the support units around her at all times and thus can sort of charge further ahead. Furthermore, there's also the bosses where the forges can prove useful. In the example of Hafeed:

Hafedd lv 17 (brave lance, spear, knight ward, occult [d])

46 hp, 31 atk, 20 AS, 141 hit, 59 avo, 24 def, 20 res, 13 crit, 19 cev

She would do 22 damage with the Steel Axe forge. With the Silver, it climbs to roughly 32. Granted, it isn't a ORKO, but it's a 2RKO here at least.

Of course, with such a mega-team, using another, late-joining flier who needs BEXP is flat out stupid and unneeded

Uh if anything, it's smarter to just give him the BEXP and just let him tear everything apart with the team. He flies, his bases are decent, a Speedwing could be given to him if you want, and he has the Movment like the mega-team. I would rather have Haar on the team in a mega-team than Lucia in a mega-team.

But that would just mean a crushing blow to Lucia.

Astrid without EP and worse move for the majority of the game vs. a sluggish Jill who barely even exists. I'll take the Astrid please

Wut?

I would still take the sluggish Jill any day of the week. He's not even that sluggish. Even Bastian, who is slower than Haar, can double some units for fucks sake.

In fact, let's just re-emphasize why that is:

No. I'm telling you that Lucia doesn't even win offense against Haar. Haar beats Lucia's offense and crushes her durability and mobility. Haar also has utility irrespective of his combat by virtue of being the most durable unit with the best movement type (only Jill is close). Haar can execute rescue-drops in hot areas in C25 and C28. You can use Lucia if you like. But know that Haar is just plain better, no matter how you look at it.

Thank you.

And with that, good night sweet prince.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Colonel M

[I.M. Gei]

Yeah, Snowy, I'm sure that calling you out on your massive victim complex feeds into it no less than pitying you and reassuring you that you're actually in the right (read: you're not) every single time you parade around your butthurt vendetta.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Black★Rock Shooter

[Snowy_One]

Yeah, Snowy, I'm sure that calling you out on your massive victim complex feeds into it no less than pitying you and reassuring you that you're actually in the right (read: you're not) every single time you parade around your butthurt vendetta.

So... If someone feels they are being unfairly singled out, you think that trying to reassure and stand up for them will make them feel like they are being unfairly singled out just as much as pointing and laughing at them with the rest of the group? Let me guess, if a kid has a problem with bullying, you also think it's better to beat up on them than to seek aid from an adult or even stand up for them as well.

Snowy_One, I don't give a damn what numeric scores you award certain units. But when you post something that is factually incorrect (such as: Lucia has better combat than Haar), I'm going to call you out on it. I analyzed enemy data for chapter 27 to back up my assertion that Haar's combat is better than Lucia's. My hope was that you would examine the facts, and reach the appropriate conclusion. You did not. I didn't craft this argument solely for your benefit; I was curious myself. And I was actually surprised how useful the Runesword came to be in Lucia's hands. Lucia's offensive potential is generally underestimated. It's certainly better than the likes of Volke, Janaff, and Ulki. But it is not better than Haar's.

I don't approve of your numbers because you spent a large amount of BEXP to get Haar up to those levels. Maybe if it was just you, I might have been willing to accept them, but with Colonel M's prior refusal/hypocrisy in the tiers towards the spending of BEXP on anyone who is not absolutely perfect for LTC play, I cannot accept that someone would deny one bad unit BEXP, then spend more BEXP on a unit that could be argued to be worse (based on how much one values joining time) in order to get him to be better than another bad unit who needs less. Maybe you should have rerun the numbers with Haar and Lucia gaining only a level or two.

[bottlegnomes]

So... If someone feels they are being unfairly singled out, you think that trying to reassure and stand up for them will make them feel like they are being unfairly singled out just as much as pointing and laughing at them with the rest of the group? Let me guess, if a kid has a problem with bullying, you also think it's better to beat up on them than to seek aid from an adult or even stand up for them as well.

Actually yes. It's psychologically proven that by playing into a need it just reinforces the behavior because the person gets the idea that by doing said behavior it will be beneficial. For example when a child is afraid of lighting you shouldn't comfort him, since he'll just keep being afraid. Rather, you should tell the child to not be afraid or ignore the behavior. As for bullying, the worst thing to possibly do is confront the bullies, actually even worse is have someone else do it. And reacting to the bullies is just going to keep them doing it. The best thing to do is just ignore them.

I don't approve of your numbers because you spent a large amount of BEXP to get Haar up to those levels. Maybe if it was just you, I might have been willing to accept them, but with Colonel M's prior refusal/hypocrisy in the tiers towards the spending of BEXP on anyone who is not absolutely perfect for LTC play, I cannot accept that someone would deny one bad unit BEXP, then spend more BEXP on a unit that could be argued to be worse (based on how much one values joining time) in order to get him to be better than another bad unit who needs less. Maybe you should have rerun the numbers with Haar and Lucia gaining only a level or two.

He didn't spend that much bexp. Haar joins half way through chapter 23. That gives him 3.5 chapters to gain 5 levels. So to do that all he'd need is a level or two of bexp. With actually being able to get EP exposure, Haar can get a decent amount of cexp.

[aku chi]

Maybe you should have rerun the numbers with Haar and Lucia gaining only a level or two.

Maybe you should do it yourself.

[Colonel M]

I don't approve of your numbers because you spent a large amount of BEXP to get Haar up to those levels. Maybe if it was just you, I might have been willing to accept them, but with Colonel M's prior refusal/hypocrisy in the tiers towards the spending of BEXP on anyone who is not absolutely perfect for LTC play, I cannot accept that someone would deny one bad unit BEXP, then spend more BEXP on a unit that could be argued to be worse (based on how much one values joining time) in order to get him to be better than another bad unit who needs less. Maybe you should have rerun the numbers with Haar and Lucia gaining only a level or two.

I wasn't that hypocritical with it.

It's very simple: Haar doesn't need BEXP, and even if he got BEXP, he's still one of your better units to receive it. The problem lies that even if Rolf obtains BEXP, it will take a significant amount to get him to this stage that's called "par". Haar is already par. In fact, he's arguably above par.

I can give Rolf BEXP, but it will not magically give him a mount nor will it give him an Enemy Phase. He has availability, which is an advantage, and it can be used against Lucia and Bastain, but Lucia and Bastian only require dire minimal resources (forges or in Bastian's case siege tomes) to do something useful. Then again, Rolf changes almost nothing either. He can be useful on a less-efficient playthrough and if you're willing to invest roughly 1K BEXP. That doesn't mean someone like Lucia or Bastian is, either (in fact like Rolf their contributions are almost negligible). Haar can actually contribute to an efficiency playthrough at little cost.

There is no real hypocrisy here. I did not give Haar a single BEXP level whatsoever.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Colonel M