Fire Emblem 12 Another Lunatic Tier List

[PKL]

I've wanted to update the Tier List for awhile.

Note: weird experiment criteria incoming

Tier List Rules:
-The game will be played on H3 Lunatic difficulty.
-Mixed Male Class Set is unlocked.
-Prologue performance is counted when evaluating unit's contributions.
Units in Prologue are assumed to get a reasonable amount of experience.
-All Characters are to be recruited.
-Lunatic stat boosters are assumed to exist and may be distributed however the player chooses
as long as the ideal recipients for the first few of each statbooster has received them.

-Characters are assumed to be deployed to compare them. Please no arguments along the lines of "this unit doesnt deserve to be deployed".
-Rainbow Potion is allowed, Growth Drop and Bond Drop are assumed to exist and allowed.
-Wifi Shop is banned.


[spoiler=What each tier means]

Top tier

Units that are core to achieving low turn counts on many maps, and do not require many resources or a team composition to do this effectively

High tier

Units that significantly cut turns with some degree of resources dumped into them (exp, statbooster, warped, rescue ferried) or support units that make those units capable of those strategies. Will not work in every scenario but are large contributors if utilised correctly

Upper Mid Tier

Units that may save turns in certain parts of the game and can be decent combat/utility units despite not being ideal for deployment.

Mid tier

Units that may save turns in certain parts of the game under certain situations.

Lower Mid Tier

Units that may affect turns in a certain part of the game but their usefulness is very limited outside of that.

Upper Low Tier

Units that require resources to perform a given task and may not affect turn counts negatively if given said resources.

Low tier

Units that negatively affect turn counts due to factors like extended babying, denial of resources to important members, etc.

Bottom Tier

Units that have absolutely no redeeming qualities as well as affecting turn counts negatively and taking up resources from other units.

Top Tier

Avatar
Malicia

Feena
Palla
Catria
Caeda

Xane
Etzel
Marth

High Tier

Sirius

Luke

Ryan
Draug
Rody

Linde

Upper Mid Tier

Cecille

Arran

Minerva

Yumina

Ogma

Merric
Navarre
Cain

Julian

Barst

Leiden
Darros

Roger
Wrys

Mid Tier

Belf

Wendell
Katarina

Frey
Athena

Gordin

Jeorge

Lower Mid Tier

Nyna
Elice
Lena

Nagi

Maria
Rickard

Tiki
Warren
Castor
Jake

Upper Low Tier

Elrean
Frost
Est
Caesar
Maris
Dice
Horace
Cord

Low Tier

Norne
Samto
Matthis
Radd
Yubello
Bord

Bottom Tier

Abel

Robert
Beck
Macellan
Dolph
Midia
Michalis
Astram
Tomas
Bantu
Samson
Roshea
Vyland
Wolf
Sedgar
Sheema
Ymir

Discuss.

Current doubts:

*Marth's placement in general

Malicia above Avatar ?

Marth to High Tier above Luke?

Julian vs Rickard, should Julian really be that high compared to him?

Changes:

9/16/2013:

Feena below Malicia

Yumina below Linde

Xane above Etzel

Barst over Roger

Leiden above Belf

Nagi above Maria

Athena over Jeorge

9/23/2013:

Minerva lowered to Upper Mid Tier

Yumina below Minerva in Upper Mid Tier

Leiden above Darros

Belf now in the top of Mid Tier

Frey moved from Upper Mid to Mid Tier, below Katarina

Merric above Navarre

Roger below Darros

Gordin below Athena

2/11/2014:

Sirius over Luke

6/15/2014:

Linde over Cecille and Arran.

Ryan over Draug and Rody.

Arran lowered to Upper Mid Tier.

Edited June 15, 2014 by PKL

[ZemZem]

Where's Abel?

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I should not say this but.... why is Sirius so high and why is he above the Altean Trio?

Also WRT Merric, Ellearan with Scrolls has access to Excalibur, but Im not sure if this is enough to push him up

Edited September 14, 2013 by JSND

[PKL]

Where's Abel?

Top of Bottom Tier for now. But I'm not sure where I'll end up putting him.

[Espinosa]

I like Unique Utility being gone.

I understand that a second Physic staff is nice, but what's Yumina doing this high up? For replicating Mallicia?

Overall, doesn't strike me as tendentious at all.

[PKL]

I like Unique Utility being gone.

I understand that a second Physic staff is nice, but what's Yumina doing this high up? For replicating Mallicia?

Overall, doesn't strike me as tendentious at all.

Yeah, C staves is very nice in general for a few chapters. And she can mostly replicate Malicia except for the whole Hammerne deal. I myself was unsure of her placement. My tiering tends to evaluate units without taking into account that someone else can do their job better. I think that If tier lists do that, there's no reason to tier beyond just the best units.

[PKL]

I should not say this but.... why is Sirius so high and why is he above the Altean Trio?

Also WRT Merric, Ellearan with Scrolls has access to Excalibur, but Im not sure if this is enough to push him up

The whole reason he's where he is, is because he can replicate what Etzel does normally by getting an Arms Scroll and promoting. (gets B rank Tomes for Excalibur, promotion allows him to use it as Bishop and thus he has D rank staves).

[Redwall]

Sirius has a decent chance of getting stat-cursed since his EXP growth is so low (also recall that s.d divided by mean for gained stats scales as n^-0.5, with n being the number of levels gained [which is, for Sirius, much smaller than one would like]). His low personal bases don't really help. I can see him somewhere in high tier since he can be OK with some boosters, but he definitely needs more boosters than the other top-tier units.

[PKL]

Sirius has a decent chance of getting stat-cursed since his EXP growth is so low (also recall that s.d divided by mean for gained stats scales as n^-0.5, with n being the number of levels gained [which is, for Sirius, much smaller than one would like]). His low personal bases don't really help. I can see him somewhere in high tier since he can be OK with some boosters, but he definitely needs more boosters than the other top-tier units.

That's always been my problem with him. But he does contribute a lot to turncounts. I guess I'll move him down a bit. Maybe below Luke and Draug but above Rody?

[Espinosa]

So yeah, Marth. You obviously benefit from your Lord being able to withstand hits (and to reach this state it helps if you can ORKO), which applies to FE where the lord can solo the game (Sigurd, Celice) or just function decently enough (Hector, Leaf, Ephraim, Ike). Then you have Lords like Roy, Eliwood who want the attention desperately just because you don't want them to die (Roy especially), and some Lords may just as well stay completely untrained (Eirika, Lyn, Micaiah). Where does New Mystery's Marth stand in this? No Warp on Lunatic Mode means increased pressure (in no-Rescue staff clears, which is most of them) to take hits, preferrably ORKOing back, so you want to give him good combat stats and you want him to move as far as he can, but that's a lot of resources (which doesn't seem to fit well in Top's description) and more of a necessity for LTCing rather than something directly springing of Marth's natural strengths.

[PKL]

So yeah, Marth. You obviously benefit from your Lord being able to withstand hits (and to reach this state it helps if you can ORKO), which applies to FE where the lord can solo the game (Sigurd, Celice) or just function decently enough (Hector, Leaf, Ephraim, Ike). Then you have Lords like Roy, Eliwood who want the attention desperately just because you don't want them to die (Roy especially), and some Lords may just as well stay completely untrained (Eirika, Lyn, Micaiah). Where does New Mystery's Marth stand in this? No Warp on Lunatic Mode means increased pressure (in no-Rescue staff clears, which is most of them) to take hits, preferrably ORKOing back, so you want to give him good combat stats and you want him to move as far as he can, but that's a lot of resources (which doesn't seem to fit well in Top's description) and more of a necessity for LTCing rather than something directly springing of Marth's natural strengths.

Growth Drop Marth is pretty solid. But he does require resources in the form of exp and kills setup for him on the way to the throne, barring a few maps where he's just rescued (like Chapter 11). He's definetely a neccesity to LTC'ing because of Medeus and because having a durable Marth allows more leniency in LTC strats. I originally had him in high tier but later put him in Top due to how neccesary he is. If I move him, where to? He seems very complicated to tier.

[Redwall]

That's always been my problem with him. But he does contribute a lot to turncounts. I guess I'll move him down a bit. Maybe below Luke and Draug but above Rody?

I think just below Luke is fine. Draug has terrible bases, so-so growths outside of Spd, bad weapon ranks, and wants a Seraph Robe just like Sirius does.

[PKL]

I think just below Luke is fine. Draug has terrible bases, so-so growths outside of Spd, bad weapon ranks, and wants a Seraph Robe just like Sirius does.

Alright, moved him there.

What do you think on Marth's placement? And Feena vs Caeda Catria and Palla?

[Irysa]

I have no contributions to make (haven't played 12 yet, will once I beat 11!), but I guess you really did like those criteria in the general forum huh? I like the extended detail for the mid tier too.

[Espinosa]

Draug's bases seem good enough to me, and he can be trained in Prologue additionally (for an extra level or two).

Tiering a Lord unit who seizes every map is hard, but just apply the same sort of approach to any and all necessary units (Feena et al.). In a way, Marth embodies nearly every map's objective and every resource into Marth is an investment that helps achieve said objective. High maybe? For eating up so many resources.

[PKL]

I have no contributions to make (haven't played 12 yet, will once I beat 11!), but I guess you really did like those criteria in the general forum huh? I like the extended detail for the mid tier too.

Yeah, I did :P. Yeah, I felt like I needed new tiers because some things weren't making sense with the simple approach. Some characters I felt deserved more of a tier gap, etc.

Draug's bases seem good enough to me, and he can be trained in Prologue additionally (for an extra level or two).

Tiering a Lord unit who seizes every map is hard, but just apply the same sort of approach to any and all necessary units (Feena et al.). In a way, Marth embodies nearly every map's objective and every resource into Marth is an investment that helps achieve said objective. High maybe? For eating up so many resources.

Draug is usually not deployed in Prologue because he's almost negative utility (doubled and almost ORKO'd by a lot of enemies) so he won't getting much experience there. Ogma is by far the most superior choice, as it lets you cut 2 turns in Prologue 8 and is a solid unit in general.

High seems reasonable for Marth but I'm wondering where exactly...

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Marth is the exact definition of word "Jack of All Trades"

He can double in some(almost none actually) early game parts, he has good enough growth to make him competent, but not to the level of those who get training and promo bonus, he is durable enough to withstand 2 hits(note that this is quite an acomplishment because your best unit is 2 - 3 shot) and he has way too many job including village, seize and chest

I think Marth is either bottom of Top or right where he is. Above Xane is quite questionable, but Xane has alvailability and momentum going against him, so I can see why he is lower than Marth though

EDIT: On the other hand I can see him right above Ceccile, although I am assuming no Drop

Edited September 14, 2013 by JSND

[Espinosa]

The 7-turn (I think; he managed to shave off an extra turn compared to my numerous Lunatic Prologue runs) strategy of the last Prologue map that grandjackal used to show me and everyone else relied on Draug tanking the thieves and I believe also 2 archers? Or one archer and Merric; I do believe he did prove that Draug isn't detrimental to turn count, though if you invest into Ogma during the last Prologue maps he'll be more reliable in his maingame join map. Meanwhile, Draug with 2 Prologue level-ups has an advantage over most others not named Arran and MU in the earlygame, perhaps easying up the Rainbow Pot consumption?

[PKL]

The 7-turn (I think; he managed to shave off an extra turn compared to my numerous Lunatic Prologue runs) strategy of the last Prologue map that grandjackal used to show me and everyone else relied on Draug tanking the thieves and I believe also 2 archers? Or one archer and Merric; I do believe he did prove that Draug isn't detrimental to turn count, though if you invest into Ogma during the last Prologue maps he'll be more reliable in his maingame join map. Meanwhile, Draug with 2 Prologue level-ups has an advantage over most others not named Arran and MU in the earlygame, perhaps easying up the Rainbow Pot consumption?

Wasn't the 7 turn exclusive to Ogma + Est? That's weird. Draug can't really tank well in Prologue aside from sword enemies. So maybe you're remembering wrong.

[1% critted]

I would put Merric a bit higher, he can one shot Wyverns on his join map, and gain a level upon doing so. But otherwise I agree.

[Redwall]

What do you think on Marth's placement? And Feena vs Caeda Catria and Palla?

How many turns would it take to beat Medeus (and tank out his Dragon friends) if Marth weren't allowed to attack in Final? My guess is a lot, so I think Marth in the top tier is justified.

I agree with Palla > Catria if only because Palla is way better in Avatar-less runs.

Feena vs. Caeda is a tough one...I'd have to think about it.

I think Mallesia should be above the Avatar; Fortify and Physic are just too good. Yumina's not *that* great a replacement IMO since her Mag growth is so low, though I've never used her as a long-term unit.

Draug's bases seem good enough to me, and he can be trained in Prologue additionally (for an extra level or two).

Terrible for his high-ish level (six), then (but still good enough to be in the high tier), though part of my reason for saying that was that I believed the seven-turn clear for P8 required Ogma and Est. I'm not familiar with a seven-turn involving Draug; is it detailed in the forums?

[eclipse]

Is this for LTC or no? The tiering criteria makes me think it is (and if it is, might want to put that in the thread title).

[XeKr]

How many turns would it take to beat Medeus (and tank out his Dragon friends) if Marth weren't allowed to attack in Final? My guess is a lot, so I think Marth in the top tier is justified.

The standard team (and most teams that went through the rest of the game with any semblance of efficiency) without Marth probably can't even beat Medeus. >_>

Re: Airforce vs. Feena. This seems particularly hard to resolve cleanly since Dancers are so special and so many strategies are optimized around them. I'd usually side with the Dancer but Again and such do exist in this game.

Re: Mallesia vs. MU: I'd be curious to see a more detailed analysis. I have thought that MU has traditionally been overrated (statistically not so different from a few others besides a small initial level lead) but the details are more obscure.

Edited September 15, 2013 by XeKr

[-Cynthia-]

Looks like a good list overall, though I think Belf/Leiden (particularly Leiden) might be a tier too low. They're adequate SMs at base with a RP, can also use Dragonpikes or use an Arms Scroll and be ok Snipers. They have less availability than say Navarre/Cain, but you also don't need to level them during the midgame chapters.

How does one use Roger? He seems too slow in Cavalier, but doesn't have weapon ranks in anything else...

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Arms Scroll him into Hunter and promote later into Dracoknight?