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Proposed Thracia Names Changes


General Banzai
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You defeat your own "no changes on principle" arguments and indicate that you're simply opposed to MY changes, for no clearly explained reason.

I don't think you realize, Banzai... I'm the fucking Vergil guy. If a name change proposed is a better alternative, I will support it. I support Ilios because I feel it's an improvement over Eyrios (that doesn't look like opposing it because you support it, to me anyways). I oppose Dermiad, Ethlinn, Hothur, Niur, Balde, etc. because they aren't improvements, they're just pointless changes. If you're going to rock the boat with name changes, at least have the decency to make them worthwhile endeavors.

As for Oisin; TheEnd said it was no less valid than Othin. He knows his shit. I trust his word, and it's even got a very convenient and obviously intended reference going with it. Oisin is the name, man.

Edited by Arch
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I don't recall TheEnd ever explaining how the katakana オーシン could make the sounds associated with the name Oisin. Am I wrong?

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I wrote a huge explanation as to why, according to the Kana, my name changes are correct, an explanation quite frankly I don't think anyone here even read.

Believe me, I read most of your explanation, and I don't disagree that most of your suggested changes are correct, but not all of your reasoning as to why they are more correct is valid. We don't know for sure how close some of the references are supposed to be to the actual names, and even if we did, we don't know for sure what an appropriate English translation would be (it would only be as good as a gut feeling, and that's never a good choice). And then, some of your reasoning just doesn't provide any adequate justification.

Regardless, my stance is the same: how about let's not fuck around with things that are perfectly serviceable and that we are already used to. Personally I do prefer Ilios to Eyrios, but it's a dumb idea to change it now.

I don't recall TheEnd ever explaining how the katakana オーシン could make the sounds associated with the name Oisin. Am I wrong?

OK, sure, this is an easy one.

The Irish pronunciation of Oisin is oh-sheen (according to Wikipedia, and the IPA table confirms it). "Oh" is a long "o" sound like in "code." This corresponds to オー. "Sheen" has a long "e" sound like in "seen." This corresponds to シン.

It is almost exactly identical to the pronunciation of オーシン.

Edited by dondon151
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And yet the standard Katakana used for Oisin is アシーン. We have a different initial vowel sound and a different secondary vowel sound as オーシン. Meanwhile, Othin and Odin (オーディン) have the same initial vowel sound and a different consonant sound which is perfectly explained by alternatives in pronouncing the ð in the original Norse deity's name.

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And yet the standard Katakana used for Oisin is アシーン. We have a different initial vowel sound and a different secondary vowel sound as オーシン. Meanwhile, Othin and Odin (オーディン) have the same initial vowel sound and a different consonant sound which is perfectly explained by alternatives in pronouncing the ð in the original Norse deity's name.

It would be helpful if you could provide the source, but I suspect that アシーン uses the English pronunciation of Oisin (the second half still doesn't make sense), because the Irish pronunciation has a different vowel sound.

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It would be helpful if you could provide the source, but I suspect that アシーン uses the English pronunciation of Oisin (the second half still doesn't make sense), because the Irish pronunciation has a different vowel sound.

Source

Scroll down to the part about Finn's wife (Oisin is his son). A lot of the Katakana for Irish words are strange (Ulster, for instance, uses アルスター, hence the confusion between Ulster and Alster).

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I don't recall TheEnd ever explaining how the katakana オーシン could make the sounds associated with the name Oisin. Am I wrong?

I didn't explain, I stated.

One thing about katakana names: they're written how whoever wrote them thought they sounded like. That, added to the severe lack of phonemes in Japanese, makes them rather... loose, many times. A name can be written in different ways, and kana can be read in different ways as well. Don't tell me you didn't know that yet?

I find it amusing that someone is willing to accept that オーディン and オージン could be used meaning the same name, but not that アージン could be miswritten as オージン - especially when you have all that Fianna warriors stuff going around.

Edited by TheEnd
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Scroll down to the part about Finn's wife (Oisin is his son).

Okay - so we can conclude that Oisin -> アシーン is valid.

This doesn't mean that Oisin -> オーシン is invalid (as TheEnd has stated why). Additionally, it seems that Oisin -> ウシーン is a commonly used translation as well.

Finally, there's a dude named Roman Osin whose last name is translated to オーシン. So, it could be any of these.

Edited by dondon151
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I didn't explain, I stated.

That's my point. Observe that now that we have explanations, we have discussions that are actually getting somewhere.

And now that you explain further, I notice something else: do we have reason to believe the Wikipedia description of him as アシーン is accurate in the first place, and not some random person's own hasty conversion? I haven't looked at it in detail, but it is my understanding that we do not.

My main concern with Oisin is that the spelling would be confusing to an English-speaking player: to me, it looks like it would be pronounced more like "OY-sin" than "oh-SHEEN" - quite a difference. So while I, personally, am inclined to believe the idea that the character Oisin is the inspiration, I'm not sure that spelling it that way will convey what it's supposed to. I don't like this notion that words placed into English must keep spellings that will be misleading or otherwise incomprehensible to English speakers.

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That's my point. Observe that now that we have explanations, we have discussions that are actually getting somewhere.

Dude

Arch said he wanted to make a new patch but changing Othin to Oisin

All I said was that it sounded fine to me (even because Othin is dumb)

I wasn't trying to persuade anyone, so I had no motive to explain anything

And now that you explain further, I notice something else: do we have reason to believe the Wikipedia description of him as アシーン is accurate in the first place, and not some random person's own hasty conversion? I haven't looked at it in detail, but it is my understanding that we do not.

>Google Oisin アシーン

My main concern with Oisin is that the spelling would be confusing to an English-speaking player: to me, it looks like it would be pronounced more like "OY-sin" than "oh-SHEEN" - quite a difference. So while I, personally, am inclined to believe the idea that the character Oisin is the inspiration, I'm not sure that spelling it that way will convey what it's supposed to. I don't like this notion that words placed into English must keep spellings that will be misleading or otherwise incomprehensible to English speakers.

And Othin isn't?

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That's my point. Observe that now that we have explanations, we have discussions that are actually getting somewhere.

I don't know about you, but from what I'm seeing here, it doesn't look like a "discussion". It feels more like them telling you how it works and them not getting ANYTHING out of it other than them feeling "give us a break already".

If you see them acting hostile/seem like they're putting you down, it's like the same reaction the ROM hackers do in the ROM hacking section when someone new comes around. One's patience can only last so long... especially when explaining every damn detail in multiple different instances.

And now that you explain further, I notice something else: do we have reason to believe the Wikipedia description of him as アシーン is accurate in the first place, and not some random person's own hasty conversion? I haven't looked at it in detail, but it is my understanding that we do not.

Again:

Okay - so we can conclude that Oisin -> アシーン is valid.

This doesn't mean that Oisin -> オーシン is invalid (as TheEnd has stated why). Additionally, it seems that Oisin -> ウシーン is a commonly used translation as well.

Finally, there's a dude named Roman Osin whose last name is translated to オーシン. So, it could be any of these.

What, you're suggesting is it's "more accurate"? Dondon JUST said thinking that way is not going to work.

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Dude

Arch said he wanted to make a new patch but changing Othin to Oisin

All I said was that it sounded fine to me (even because Othin is dumb)

I wasn't trying to persuade anyone, so I had no motive to explain anything

None of this is my concern, but okay.

>Google Oisin アシーン

And it gives results, okay.

And Othin isn't?

Never said that. I tend to read it as "OH-thin", personally, which I understand as a bit closer to "oh-SHEEN", but not perfect.

Which makes now the perfect time to discuss any possible better names for him.

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Am I literally the only person aside from the member himself that thinks Othin is a perfectly fine name? Not Oison, or Othinn, or Ooodinnaasuchysis, Othin sounds just fine to me. How in any number of 7 hells does it sound like a placeholder name? Sorry, maybe I'm just an idiot.

Don't answer that last part

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Am I literally the only person aside from the member himself that thinks Othin is a perfectly fine name? Not Oison, or Othinn, or Ooodinnaasuchysis, Othin sounds just fine to me. How in any number of 7 hells does it sound like a placeholder name? Sorry, maybe I'm just an idiot.

Yeah, I don't mind it. There's no need to change it - there's no need to change any of the names that I dislike, either.

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I don't mind Othin either, I just feel that the reference was intended, and that Oisin is a better translation.

Plus, I really want a scenario where Othin and Celice's character names are both localized. Oisin and Serlis!

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Even if the name is meant to be a reference to Oisin, it's clearly not using the same Katakana as Oisin typically uses. It's a corruption of the name and thus the English version should indicate that corruption as well.

Saying "It's a mythological reference, just copypasta name in English!" is exactly what both sides here want to avoid. Otherwise we're getting shit like Diarmuid, etc.

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Saying "It's a mythological reference, just copypasta name in English!" is exactly what both sides here want to avoid.

Major Crusader/Historical Names:

Okay, time to preface this. Because there are a lot of changes. A lot. Figuring out this Gordian knot of names was probably the most difficult part of my task in editing the Thracia translation script. As with the Dermid incident, there are many points where the Crusader names deviate from the standard Katakana for the Norse deities they refer to. However, rather than just randomly assigning names because the Kana doesn't match up, I looked at patterns as to WHERE the Kana doesn't match up, and how it is different… and patterns do exist.

First, let me explain the mythological references of all the Crusaders just for those not in the know.

Where the Katakana deviates from the reference:

Odo (オード) = Óðr (オーズ)

Baldo (バルド) = Baldr (バルドル)

Hezul (ヘズル) = Höðr (ヘズ)

Dain (ダイン) = Dáinn (ダーイン)

Tordo (トード) = Thor (トール)

Where the Katakana is the same as the reference:

Ulir (ウル) = Ullr (ウル)

Blaggi (ブラギ) = Bragi (ブラギ)

Heim (ヘイム) = Heim(dallr) (ヘイム(ダル))

Sety (セティ) = (For)seti ((フォル)セティ)

Although according to Vincent, "Fala" is a reference to a Nordic Priestess called a Völva (Anglicized to Vala), I could not find the Katakana for Vala. I decided, however, that in all likelihood the Kana for "Fala" would be the same as the Kana for "Vala," and thus decided to change Fala to Vala to reflect that reference.

I could find no specific Norse name to which Nova may refer. I assume it just means Nova, as in Supernova, or whatever the Latin term for nova is based on. In either case, I decided to keep Nova as the name.

That leaves Neir. At first I didn't think it was a mythological reference either, as both it and Nova are the only Crusaders who are not listed as mythological references on Vincent's site. However, I did some digging and discovered that it actually is a reference to Nerthus, an Anglicized prototypal Njörðr. The Kana for Neir is ネール; the Kana for the first syllable of Nerthus is ネル. Considering Njörðr is a major Norse deity (like most of the other roots for the Crusaders), as well as the Kana similarity, I concluded that the reference must be intentional.

(As a footnote, if you're wondering why Neir, Sety, and Heim all use shortened versions of the Norse deities's Kana, I theorize that it has something to do with space, as all shortenings occur to bring the Crusader name down to no more than three Kana, and no Kana for any of the Crusaders exceed three Kana at all. I assume this was done to make sure all the names fit on the Blood Wheel in FE4.)

Now that I've explained all the Crusaders and their references, I will now explain my name changes. I'll start with those which use identical Kana to their Norse counterparts, as those are the easiest. I merely used common Anglicized forms of the Norse deities in creating my translations. Ulir thus becomes Ullur (an Anglicized version of Ullr), Blaggi becomes Bragi, Heim stays Heim, and Sety becomes Seti. I hope none of these will be all too controversial; Bragi is already the name used in the patch anyways, and neither Seti nor Ullur are very different from the originals. I am changing Fala to Vala for the reasons listed above, and I find no reason to change Nova.

That leaves the six Crusader names that deviate from their source material: Odo, Baldo, Tordo, and Hezul make major deviations; Dain and Neir remove or add a vowel elongation mark. Dain is the easiest change to explain, and thus I will tackle it first.

Dain (ダイン) = Dáinn (ダーイン)

The elongation here is removed from the original. I assume this happened because of the three-Kana cap I noted earlier. What is the change in pronunciation between ダイン and ダーイン? I'm not exactly certain, but I assume there is not much. I figure it may have something to do with the accent in Dáinn, placing emphasis on the "a" sound and perhaps having something to do with the diphthong. The point is not the vowel sound, however. The main difference between the current translation (Dain) and my translation (Dainn) is that added "n." However, the changes between the Kana for Thracia Dain and the Kana for mythological Dáinn do not change the added "n," and thus there is no reason why Thracia Dain should have one less n than the mythological spelling. My change reflects that.

Next I will discuss Tordo.

Tordo (トード) = Thor (トール)

The difference here is at the end, replacing the r sound of Thor (ル) with the d sound of Tordo (ド). The different is NOT at the beginning, and substituting a th with a t is not a proper way to corrupt a word in English (it is in Japanese, where there is no th sound and thus the th sound is imitating by the s, sh, z, and t sounds… remember that for later). Thus, Tordo is an improper translation of the Kana, even though the Kana does not exactly match up to the Kana for Thor. As I said before, the only difference between the two Kana is the replacement of the r sound in Thor with the d sound in Thode. As you can see, my translation reflects that difference, adding no extra differences and keeping in line with the Kana.

The same goes for Baldo.

Baldo (バルド) = Baldr (バルドル)

We have another shortening here, again probably to fit the three-Kana cap I discussed earlier. The primary difference between the two names is a clean removal of the r sound, still expressed by the ル used in Thor's name. The obvious translation, then, would be to take Baldr and lop off the r sound as well, leaving us with Bald, which I have decided to Anglicize as Balde. However, there is another possibility here, that possibility being to change Baldo into Baldur. But wait! The two Kana are different, shouldn't that mean the translations should be different as well? Well… maybe not, in this case only. Why? Look at the Kana for the other Norse deities whose names in in r.

Óðr (オーズ)

Höðr (ヘズ)

Ullr (ウル)

The standard Katakana for all three of these Norse deities lops off the r sound at the end, similar to how the Thracia Balde lops off the r sound in Baldr (Ullr appears to have the r sound at the end, but ル is actually being used to dictate the two ls in Ullr. ウルル would be the actual representation if the Kana were to depict the r sound in Ullr). Because it seems standard practice to depict the names of these Norse deities without the final r sound in Japanese, then perhaps it would be reasonable to apply the same practice to Baldur's name. I'll leave that one up to you guys, whether your prefer Balde or Baldur.

But now for the other Crusaders.

Odo (オード) = Óðr (オーズ)

Hezul (ヘズル) = Höðr (ヘズ)

Remember when I told you earlier to remember that there is no th sound in Japanese, and that that sound can be depicted through the s, sh, z, and t sounds instead? Here's where that becomes important. Although ð looks like a d, it can be used to depict both a d sound and a th sound. That is why the Japanese Kana for Óðr (オーズ) and Höðr (ヘズ) look so strange. ズ is a z sound, not a d sound… clearly meant to depict the th sound that is represented by the ð in both of those names. This helps us explain what exactly "Hezul" is supposed to represent. That z in the middle of Hezul isn't supposed to be a z at all, but rather a th, keeping in line with the name of the Norse deity that it directly mimics (ヘズル and ヘズ; the only difference is the missing r sound that I mentioned earlier).

The Kana for Hezul is the exact same as that for Höðr save that Hezul adds the r sound that is for some reason missing in the Kana for Höðr. Meanwhile, the e sound after the H is there to mimic the sound that the ö makes. Remember, Katakana is based around sound mimicry, not spelling mimicry. However, in English, when one takes a loan word from another language that uses an accent, customarily one removes the accent but keeps the base words regardless of pronunciation. Hence, we get facade instead of fasade, cliche instead of clichae, etc. Thus, when making a translation of the Kana for Höðr, we would not blindly follow the sound mimicry of the Kana, but revert the spelling back to that of the original reference. For instance, we do not spell Salem's name as Seiram simply because that is the literal translation of the Kana (セイラム), but rather change it Salem because we know that that is what the vowel sounds in the Kana are trying to mimic. Why should it be different here?

Thus, with all of this taken into account (the e sound replacing an o sound and the z sound replacing the th sound), Hezul should be changed to Hothur (or rather Hothr, but I decided to Anglicize to make things easier for the eyes).

With Hothur taken care of, Ode is far simpler. It replaces the z sound in the Kana for Óðr with a d sound, and thus I institute a d sound rather than a th sound. Then I keep in accord with the names for Balde and Thode and come up with Ode.

Neir has actually given me some trouble.

Neir (ネール) = Ner (ネル)

On one hand, there is a clear difference thanks to the elongated vowel mark added to the Crusader's name. Attempting to follow that vowel change and also keep the same format I have used for other Crusader names (namely, representing the r sound with an ur), I have for the moment settled on Niur. I'm not completely satisfied with the name, as it's an unusual diphthong in English, and I have considered going with Ner, or even keeping the original Neir. I'm open to feedback on this one.

Major Place Name Changes:

The final category I will be covering here, as I have no yet done class and weapon names, save for a few instances which appear in the script (Grafcalibur, Gae Bulg, etc).

I'm actually much less certain on the names here. For instance, Manster, Lenster, Alster, and Conort all use the exact same Kana as the Irish provinces of Munster, Leinster, Ulster, and Connaught, with no deviations whatsoever. I want to make these changes… But already at the mere mention of this in the thread (by someone who wasn't even me, no less), a lot of people already exclaimed hostility towards the changes.

The one major place name change that I have made, then, is:

Freeji --> Freya

Freeji was another one of those places I didn't think was a mythological reference. It wasn't noted as such on Vincent's site, at least. After poking around, however, I finally fell upon the Norse goddess Freyja, and the similarity of that name to the name Freeji instantly struck me. After poking around, it appears that Freeji is indeed a corruption of Freyja (a goddess who, by the way, has many variant spellings for her name, including but not limited to Freia, Freya, Freja, Frøya, and Freyia). Freeji has always been a place of… uncertain nomenclature (I've seen Freege, Frege, Freegi), and so I hope that this change doesn't spark too much of a controversy.

My other changes are minor and generally restricted to the small places on the maps, where perhaps on chapter or so takes place. For instance, Chapter 12 takes place in Dakia, which I changed to Dacia because not only is the Kana for both identical, but Dacia is actually a place in real-world Thracia, making it the only coherent geographical reference in the entire game.

Anyways, here are my proposed changes. I'll see what you guys think. I've done my first edit of the text and will post it soon as well.

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Even if the name is meant to be a reference to Oisin, it's clearly not using the same Katakana as Oisin typically uses. It's a corruption of the name and thus the English version should indicate that corruption as well.

So... why can't it be Orshin? Osin? Osshen? Vergil?

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In other news; I started looking into SNES graphical hacking today. Sent Pukachi a message this morning, hopefully he'll see it. If not, I'll have to figure things out myself. Been perusing the ROM on and off in my spare time today, looking for those jumbled graphics (since the menu texts are all just images). It's just a case of the original graphics being oddly overwritten with new menu graphics, and the pointers maligning to create that weird jumbled mess. All we have to do is figure out how the graphics are handled, make some new menu graphics, and fix all the pointers.

Some hackerspeak for "this shouldn't be too challenging." What'll be more interesting is editing the text, since I don't know if the tools were ever shared.

Edited by Arch
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For the text graphics, refer earlier in... this thread? I believe. I already pointed out where the graphics are located and how to access them.

Not seeing them in this thread, but if you've got that information it'd make my life a ton easier.

EDIT: Found it in the other topic.

Edited by Arch
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