Germany and the Refugee Crisis

[Bman]

So, in the last year, over 1 million refugees from the middle-east have entered Germany, and the numbers are still rising. Many people are worried because of that, since we don't know how we can integrate so many people and stop ghettofication. Also, there have been many reports of refugees misbehaving, like stealing, beating up each other and molesting women. While some of these reports should be taken with a grant nof salt (like some guys on facebook saying that refugees raped and killed a 13-year old girl), there are also many helpers who say that they are overwhelmed by the numbers. Despite many complaints, chancellor Angela Merkel is still holding to her open-gates-policy. Her own party and even other EU countries are turning against her, and some voices in the population are calling for her to step down.

Anbother problem is that the tone of the debate has become a lot harsher. The parties on the extreme right have been rising in the last months, using the dissatisfaction of many people. They are spewing absolute nonsense, and a lot of racist views, but the people stil listen to them. They also claim that our press is lying and not reporting about crimes done by refugees. While I do not believe that, incidents like New Year's Eve in Cologne and that a member of the AFD (the right-wing party on the rise) was not invited to a talk show because politicians of the federal state (I forgot which one it was) refused to debate with them only put oil into the fire.

My Question is, how have Germanies actions been reported and discussed in other coutries, and what do you think about them yourself?

Edited January 26, 2016 by Bman

[Duff Ostrich]

One of the issues is that many of these "refugees" are really just economic migrants looking for a better life, and Merkel has made the particularly disastrous promise that they will find it in Germany.

With a sensible immigration policy and a reasonably strong national identity it is easy to assume that immigrants will eventually adapt to the customs of the nation they move to. Open the floodgates and the situation changes. Instead you get pocket communities of very poor, restless young men who obviously do not share the values of the place they have moved to. Everyone knows how backwards attitudes towards women are in the Middle East, and now, for instance, the people of Cologne were subjected to the highly misogynist whims of men who think they have the privilege to mistreat "kuffar" women.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Duff Ostrich

[Solkia]

I've heard about this, there's been a lot of street protests over this right?

1 million is quite a lot of refugees to take in, thought I can't really say I know much of anything about Germany's social structure

[CyborgZeta]

Merkel's open border policy isn't sustainable, and I don't think it was a good idea. Rather than just taking in refugees, her declaration enticed millions of people to leave their countries to come to Germany.

She's inviting droves of people from predominately Islamic nations, where the cultures and views are completely different from Germany's (and the West in general). These clashing cultures will only create conflicts in the future. The idea of multiculturalism only works so long as the competing cultures are a minority compared to the host country's national identity and culture.

It's not helped by the fact that most of the people coming are young men. Canada is an example of how actual refugees should be taken in, which is taking in primarily women and children that are properly vetted.

In addition to all that, there's the economic strain of taking in this large influx of people as well.

My own country has a similar problem in illegal immigration.

Edited January 26, 2016 by CyborgZeta

[Phoenix Wright]

One of the issues is that many of these "refugees" are really just economic migrants looking for a better life, and Merkel has made the particularly disastrous promise that they will find it in Germany.

With a sensible immigration policy and a reasonably strong national identity it is easy to assume that immigrants will eventually adapt to the customs of the nation they move to. Open the floodgates and the situation changes. Instead you get pocket communities of very poor, restless young men who obviously do not share the values of the place they have moved to. Everyone knows how backwards attitudes towards women are in the Middle East, and now, for instance, the people of Cologne were subjected to the highly misogynist whims of men who think they have the privilege to mistreat "kuffar" women.

i dunno about that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw

[Loli_Tama]

Ah this topic, I was waiting for it to appear here sooner or later. So, before I give my opinion theres two points of notice that I want to adress:

1- This is not a refugee crisis, it's a migrant crisis. A good part of the people entering Europe are not refugees or even Syrian but people from all over the north of Africa coming for money;

2- Simply saying that all right wing parties are racist tells me quite frankly that you haven't done much research on the topic besides what comes out on the mainstream media. Are there racists? Absolutly but not all of them are and some might have interesting views if you listen. Again, not all of them but some.

So with that out of the way back to the situation. Honestly I think anyone that can think rationally saw the car crash that would happen from a mile away. You can't simply open up the borders and let everyone in without some sort of screening and expect everything to be fine. Besides the economical strain of supporting so many people theres also the cultural diferences that needed to be thought about. These are people that come from countries where womens rights and free speech are almost non existent. What's more shamefull about this situation is that if anyone tries to object to this mass imigration and open border policy with honestly good points about why it might be bad they are immediatly labeld racist or islamophobic to try and shut down any discussion of it.

Even worse the crimes that are being commited by this "refugees" aren't all being reported on the mainstream media. Heck the Colone new years attack was only reported at least 5 or 6 days after it happened. Not only that but the police themselfs lied about it by first stating that everything was peacefull that day to later saying that the suspects were not assylum seekers but criminals that they knew before which was proven wrong by the many reports of police officers on the scene wich were leaked to the media. Even when it came out on the media do you know what their most important point was? It was that the right wing was going to use it as an example of why this mass migration was bad. This orchestrated sexual assault on women is bad not because it happened but because it proves the racists right.

And you know what happened to the people who did it? Nothing. None were judged or deported and they're still free to do what they want, probably planning their next attack on Carnival.

Do you want to know what happened to the women who came forward and identified these men as being arabs and north africans? They were harrassed and called racists. Not only that but the Mayor of Colone said if women don't want this to happen to them they should stay an arms lenght away from strange men because that is so helpfull when you're surrounded by a mob of them like what happened in new years eve.

Not only that but Merkel got the cooperation of Facebook and Twitter to censor and delete hatefull coments about the migrants.

With all of this I think it's quite obvious why exactly more people are agreeing with the right: when your media doesn't cover things that are happening because of this goddamn PC culture and being afraid of being labled as racists, your police doesn't protect you because it has been suggested by the government to simply look the other side when migrants commit crimes because then they would have to admit that they were wrong about the open borders and when you point this out and say this is wrong your government doesn't punish the criminals but instead censors you like you're the criminal and everyone else calls you a racist.

Sorry for the long post but I had this sentiment of injustice bottled for a while because if all of this had been done by white men instead of arabs you can bet that it would be all over the news and the feminists would all be talking about the white rape culture instead of simply saying 'well there have always been rapes in Germany' and forgetting the fact that never before in Germany a gang of 1000 people orchestrated a sexual assault on women. Not to mention the men that were also beaten that night.

[dondon151]

i dunno about that

i am pretty skeptical of anything that reza aslan says

[tuvarkz]

i dunno about that

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/women-worth-less.aspx

Also, let's see Saudi Arabia, and how women are treated:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia#Women

Apparently, unlike Western countries (With all the allegations of 'rape culture' therein), Women ARE legally disadvantaged in comparison to men.

[blah the Prussian]

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/women-worth-less.aspx

Also, let's see Saudi Arabia, and how women are treated:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia#Women

Apparently, unlike Western countries (With all the allegations of 'rape culture' therein), Women ARE legally disadvantaged in comparison to men.

Saudi Arabia ain't the only Arab country out there, bro. It helps to recognize that the majority of the refugees are not from the Saudis or their fundamentalist brethren, but rather from Iraq and Syria, both of whom have been secular since the rise of the Fascist Baath parties. It helps to recognize, then, that most of the people who attacked the women in Köln were from North African countries, not Iraq and Syria. It is worth mentioning that they ate not in prison not because the police don't care to catch them, but because it is, in fact, hard to catch them because the police were woefully unprepared to deal with the incident. Also, there was not a single major source that called the women who came forward about sexual assault racists. Tumblr does not represent the mainstream, you will be shocked to learn. Also, in the other thread tuvarkz himself said that about 9% of "refugees" are not actually refugees. It seems to me that that is a damn good margin. Finally, lets be real here, people, we are a bunch of teenagers and twenty somethings. I think that the Chancellor of Germany is better equipped to know how many refugees her country can take than we are.

[Bman]

I've heard about this, there's been a lot of street protests over this right?

1 million is quite a lot of refugees to take in, thought I can't really say I know much of anything about Germany's social structure

You must mean PEGIDA (it's the acronym for Patriotic Europeans against the Islamification if the Occident), and they started protesting around 1 and half year ago.

And Germany has a rather good healthcare-system (we have minimum wage, child-support, and support for people out of work), but the problem is that many germans depend on that, too. Some fear that it may lead to a conflict between immigrants and natives over money and social housing. On the other hand, however, Germanies Birthrate is not the highest, and the immigrants have a lot of children, so some theorize that it may help our system. It just depends on how much of the immigrants can start working and pay taxes.

Ah this topic, I was waiting for it to appear here sooner or later. So, before I give my opinion theres two points of notice that I want to adress:

1- This is not a refugee crisis, it's a migrant crisis. A good part of the people entering Europe are not refugees or even Syrian but people from all over the north of Africa coming for money;

2- Simply saying that all right wing parties are racist tells me quite frankly that you haven't done much research on the topic besides what comes out on the mainstream media. Are there racists? Absolutly but not all of them are and some might have interesting views if you listen. Again, not all of them but some.

So with that out of the way back to the situation. Honestly I think anyone that can think rationally saw the car crash that would happen from a mile away. You can't simply open up the borders and let everyone in without some sort of screening and expect everything to be fine. Besides the economical strain of supporting so many people theres also the cultural diferences that needed to be thought about. These are people that come from countries where womens rights and free speech are almost non existent. What's more shamefull about this situation is that if anyone tries to object to this mass imigration and open border policy with honestly good points about why it might be bad they are immediatly labeld racist or islamophobic to try and shut down any discussion of it.

Even worse the crimes that are being commited by this "refugees" aren't all being reported on the mainstream media. Heck the Colone new years attack was only reported at least 5 or 6 days after it happened. Not only that but the police themselfs lied about it by first stating that everything was peacefull that day to later saying that the suspects were not assylum seekers but criminals that they knew before which was proven wrong by the many reports of police officers on the scene wich were leaked to the media. Even when it came out on the media do you know what their most important point was? It was that the right wing was going to use it as an example of why this mass migration was bad. This orchestrated sexual assault on women is bad not because it happened but because it proves the racists right.

And you know what happened to the people who did it? Nothing. None were judged or deported and they're still free to do what they want, probably planning their next attack on Carnival.

Do you want to know what happened to the women who came forward and identified these men as being arabs and north africans? They were harrassed and called racists. Not only that but the Mayor of Colone said if women don't want this to happen to them they should stay an arms lenght away from strange men because that is so helpfull when you're surrounded by a mob of them like what happened in new years eve.

Not only that but Merkel got the cooperation of Facebook and Twitter to censor and delete hatefull coments about the migrants.

With all of this I think it's quite obvious why exactly more people are agreeing with the right: when your media doesn't cover things that are happening because of this goddamn PC culture and being afraid of being labled as racists, your police doesn't protect you because it has been suggested by the government to simply look the other side when migrants commit crimes because then they would have to admit that they were wrong about the open borders and when you point this out and say this is wrong your government doesn't punish the criminals but instead censors you like you're the criminal and everyone else calls you a racist.

Sorry for the long post but I had this sentiment of injustice bottled for a while because if all of this had been done by white men instead of arabs you can bet that it would be all over the news and the feminists would all be talking about the white rape culture instead of simply saying 'well there have always been rapes in Germany' and forgetting the fact that never before in Germany a gang of 1000 people orchestrated a sexual assault on women. Not to mention the men that were also beaten that night.

Oh, I didn't want to imply that I think that all right-wing-parties are racist. I agree with the CDU/CSU a lot on this topic, it's just the AFD that worries me. I should have said extreme right, to make my point clearer.

And I agree with you, the problem is that for a long time, you couldn't say anything negative about Merkel's policy, because you were immediately stamped as a racist and or Nazi. This frustrated many normal people, who in turn started to turn to the AFD and alike. What worries me is that they spew a lot of hate, and often this hate hits the wrong people. Instead of just blaming the guys who attacked the women, all muslim men are now under suspicion. Furthermore, they even want to establish vigilante groupes that patrol the streets at night.

What you said about the media is interesting. I work at a local newspaper, and every time we post something about a crime done by a migrant, we have people from the extreme right saying that this proves how all migrants are bad and how they should all be sent back, while people from the left say that the newspaper is trying to stir up anti-migrant views. People don't realize that we just want to report the crime, and that the perpetraitors ethnicity is always given, no matter if he is German, Czech or Syrian. I can't speak for the big newspapers or other media though, and how they do it.

[Phoenix Wright]

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/women-worth-less.aspx

Also, let's see Saudi Arabia, and how women are treated:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia#Women

Apparently, unlike Western countries (With all the allegations of 'rape culture' therein), Women ARE legally disadvantaged in comparison to men.

lol you didn't watch one second of the video. try again bud

we can cherrypick bad things from religious texts all day--it doesn't directly prove anything concerning the legislatures of nations. yes, saudi arabia is probably one of the most vile nations in terms of its treatment of women (and many other aspects of life), but jordan, another predominantly muslim country, isn't anywhere near as bad. perhaps not as great as the "west," but women aren't treated like cattle there.

the point that i agree with aslan on is simple: the broad brush with which we wish to paint all muslim countries with eliminates real discussions one could have concerning the region/nations.

i am pretty skeptical of anything that reza aslan says

any particular reason? basically my whole perception of him is contained within his interview i posted and one with wolf blitzer, both of which seem to have good dialogue from him. i don't know much aside from his general feelings about how we should be talking about the middle east.

upon further inspection, i can see what you're saying.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[Yojinbo]

The question shouldn't be how many refugees germany can handle but why nobody seems to have a problem with the fact that these people have to flee their countries in the first place. European politcians avoid that issue. Ever wondered why?

[CyborgZeta]

I think that the Chancellor of Germany is better equipped to know how many refugees her country can take than we are.

The problem is that it has long stopped being a refugee crisis. The majority of the people coming now are migrants, particularly from African countries like Eritrea.

And unless Europe completely closes its borders, migrants will keep coming. I actually saw a good video earlier that made a good point about poorer countries, immigration, and migrants.

Edited January 26, 2016 by CyborgZeta

[blah the Prussian]

The question shouldn't be how many refugees germany can handle but why nobody seems to have a problem with the fact that these people have to flee their countries in the first place. European politcians avoid that issue. Ever wondered why?

Its not all of Europe's fault, though, just that of Britain and France, and Turkey for being ruled by ultranationalist asses that made it so that the Ottoman Empire had to fall apart. Germany certainly wasn't responsible for what happened to the Middle East after WWI.

The problem is that it has long stopped being a refugee crisis. The majority of the people coming now are migrants, particularly from African countries like Eritrea.

And unless Europe completely closes its borders, migrants will keep coming. I actually saw a good video earlier that made a good point about poorer countries, immigration, and migrants.

Eritrea is ranked with North Korea and Saudi Arabia in terms of hellishness. I think its fair to call people fleeing Eritrea refugees, given that the regime they are fleeing isn't that much worse than Daesh. In any case, can you get me stats on the ratio of refugees to migrants?

[Yojinbo]

Its not all of Europe's fault, though, just that of Britain and France, and Turkey for being ruled by ultranationalist asses that made it so that the Ottoman Empire had to fall apart. Germany certainly wasn't responsible for what happened to the Middle East after WWI.

You're funny.

[blah the Prussian]

You're funny.

Why thank you. Seriously, though, the problems that existed in the Middle East would have happened with or without European interference. The area was already massively ethnically and religiously diverse, and the common allegiance to the Sultan was the only thing holding it together. Well, when Enver and his gang of asshats took power it killed any chance the multiethnic Ottoman Empire had to survive. If the Empire goes down, and it was going down with or without WWI, the Middle East explodes anyway, simple as that.

[Yojinbo]

Obviously I wasn't talking about the collapse of the ottoman empire as the root of all problems.

Europe may not be the main 'villain' here but as long as european countries like germany, france or the UK export arms to Saudi-Arabia and Qatar from where the inevitably fall into the arms of Daesh ... and as long as a considerable part of the IS militia consists of EU citizens with EU passports ... and as long as we're handing out shitloads of money to Erdogan for free ... we have no business pretending like we're the victim of some alien invasion. Not when we're playing such a major role in this mess.

Europe may not have caused the whole thing but we've surely been adding a lot of fuel to the fire over the last 5 years. Not once have we made any serious attempt to calm the situation down.

[blah the Prussian]

Obviously I wasn't talking about the collapse of the ottoman empire as the root of all problems.

Europe may not be the main 'villain' here but as long as european countries like germany, france or the UK export arms to Saudi-Arabia and Qatar from where the inevitably fall into the arms of Daesh ... and as long as a considerable part of the IS militia consists of EU citizens with EU passports ... and as long as we're handing out shitloads of money to Erdogan for free ... we have no business pretending like we're the victim of some alien invasion. Not when we're playing such a major role in this mess.

Europe may not have caused the whole thing but we've surely been adding a lot of fuel to the fire over the last 5 years. Not once have we made any serious attempt to calm the situation down.

Ah, I see. Well, I agree with that, to an extent.

[Excellen Browning]

Just to give ya'll a heads up; the Eritreans coming to Europe are proper refugees, fleeing from a cruel dictatorship.

I'm worried as well about the refugee stream. I know for a fact Dutch and German immigration and refugee agencies have been overwhelmed, and I suspect the same is true for other western countries and those countries along the way to them. And of course the reality so many eastern European countries are trying to close their borders so they don't need to deal with the issue at all.

[solrocknroll]

I'm having trouble seeing how many people seem to see Merkel as a bad leader when she's been around for 10 years. She's obviously done something right. I can't see how something like the open borders can ruin 10 whole years. Of course, tons of rulers who do one controversial thing even after many years have been attacked all throughout history, so it seems that this really is nothing new.

Is the policy a good idea? Not exactly. Should she resign? Absolutely not.

[Yojinbo]

I'm having trouble seeing how many people seem to see Merkel as a bad leader when she's been around for 10 years. She's obviously done something right.

She's pretty bad tbh. There are a lot of problems going on in germany that aren't covered much in the media and a lot of the things that go right are hardly the result of her doing. All she really did during those 10 years was sustain her power but she didn't do anything for the german people.

[blah the Prussian]

I'm having trouble seeing how many people seem to see Merkel as a bad leader when she's been around for 10 years. She's obviously done something right. I can't see how something like the open borders can ruin 10 whole years. Of course, tons of rulers who do one controversial thing even after many years have been attacked all throughout history, so it seems that this really is nothing new.

Is the policy a good idea? Not exactly. Should she resign? Absolutely not.

To be fair, longevity means she is a good politician, which very rarely translates into being a good leader. I myself dislike Merkel for not restoring the Hohenzollerns, but apart from that I don't have many problems with her.

[Moblin Major General]

Meanwhile, I'm sitting on my ass in America, who only gave a shit about Hungary and Croatia not accepting people. However, we managed to bug out the Kurds and Yazidis and bring them here, something the Arab world refuses to do. Daesh is almost like the Nazis of the Middle East, and the political ramifications for the Near and Middle East are almost that severe. No wonder even the Sunni Arab majority wants to leave.

[Excellen Browning]

To be fair, longevity means she is a good politician, which very rarely translates into being a good leader. I myself dislike Merkel for not restoring the Hohenzollerns, but apart from that I don't have many problems with her.

Not to mention "leaders" in the western world work within severe restrictions of their power. Government is almost completely the carrying out of law, with ministers serving more as political control to their department. Merkel is the figurehead of the ruling coalition and the majority bloc in the Landstag and her only real "power" is to get a majority there to make changes to current policy.

[Life]

Just to give ya'll a heads up; the Eritreans coming to Europe are proper refugees, fleeing from a cruel dictatorship.

This is absolutely correct.

Most Eritreans who come to Europe or North America are usually passing through Israel/Ethopia/Sudan... other countries where they're treated like indentured servants. And yes, that does include Israel at times. I work with a bunch of Eritreans and have done so for the past two years.