Character viability impressions (gameplay spoilers)

[Folt]

According to what I've heard

Tsukuyomi is adopted. So he isn't a Wind Tribe member by blood.

EDIT:

It’s not really a different build, but I want to draw a little attention to how exp mechanics seem to work now. The game “remembers” in a sense what level units are promoted at, such that earlier promos get faster exp gain than later promos. So the penalty to early promotion is just those really late levels that are lost.

Oh shit is this true?! O_O

Edited July 28, 2015 by Folt

[XeKr]

I think most players will notice something weird in Nohr as Camilla gets far more exp than you might expect for her level, especially compared to Xander or units promoted at 20. It's then easy to test that 10/1 units get different exp than 20/1 units. There's a small penalty still, but early promoted units still get reasonable enough exp gain (considering if they were effectively level 21 as similar to past games, exp would surely be 1 on kill/0 on hit given diminishing returns in Fates' exp system).

[Folt]

I see. That's actually kinda interesting. I wonder if Gunther is the same thing, then again, that would probably be better to test on Conquest.

[XeKr]

Yes, I think it’s even more pronounced for Gunther (when he rejoins) than Camilla . I think Yuugiri gets a small bonus similar to Camilla (was “promoted earlier”). I don’t think Crimson does (similar to 20/-- exp). Ryoma/Xander should be max level promotes too. Not sure about the others atm. Well I suppose Felicia/Jakob are obvious and even more unique.

Hinoka, Asama, Setsuna, Tsukuyomi (perhaps more details later <_<) added. Bow build for Hana added. Some build names slightly revamped to be sillier more descriptive (hopefully). Other small edits (terminology consistency is hard). Sakura’s rating changed to “use” for now since based on support value her personal is a weaker Battle Command, but it’s available from base and stacks (and stacking Def/Res is very strong), plus she has Rallies/Staves as well.

Edited July 30, 2015 by XeKr

[Minischew]

I think most players will notice something weird in Nohr as Camilla gets far more exp than you might expect for her level, especially compared to Xander or units promoted at 20. It's then easy to test that 10/1 units get different exp than 20/1 units. There's a small penalty still, but early promoted units still get reasonable enough exp gain (considering if they were effectively level 21 as similar to past games, exp would surely be 1 on kill/0 on hit given diminishing returns in Fates' exp system).

? How do you know which levels pre-promotes were promoted at?

[XeKr]

We don’t know, but we can observe that at the same displayed level, some promoted units get more exp for killing the same enemy. For example, level 10 Gunter, level 10 Camilla, and level 10 Xander will all get different exp killing a level 10 promoted enemy. Same with a 10/10 unit (that you knowingly promoted early), 15/10 unit, and 20/10 unit. And so on.

Brief example from the real game. For a level 10 Sorc kill, level 10 (unpromoted) Kagerou gets 90 exp, 10/1 Saizou gets 72 exp. 20/1 Nishiki gets 57 exp, --/1 Yuugiri gets 72 exp (is she 10/1 maybe?), --/2 Crimson gets 54 exp (we can extrapolate 20/2 maybe?). While it may or may not seem like a big difference here, it generally matters more for enemies closer to your level.

Since I'm here, 20/10 Takumi, --/10 Asyura and Yukimura all get 30 exp, suggesting they were promoted at 20.

It’s hard to know exactly what level they were “promoted” at, though it should eventually be possible with enough data and the exp formula. It certainly could be hardcoded per character like Jakob/Felicia seem to be (as we can’t promote before 10).

Edited July 30, 2015 by XeKr

[XeKr]

Oboro, Hinata, Takumi added.

Random musings about possibly over/undervaluing various utility things (or why Felicia/Sakura are rated higher than Silas/Subaki/Hinoka atm). In some past games, the stat advantages offered by unmounted units were unnecessary, as mounted units still had the stats (often comparable or better) to take hits and oneround stuff (often at 1-2 range). Low Hp all around, nerfed 1-2 range means this isn’t true for the most part. Extremes in Spd or Def, even Str/Mag (for really bulky enemies or ohkos to avoid damage), tend to matter. Moving ahead of the rest of the army is more dangerous, and might result in getting stuck/slowed by an enemy surround anyway since not everything melts in your path.

In particular, flying off to some task alone runs the significant danger of just getting killed, especially by bows. Even if ferrying stronger other units (ala Shanna/Vanessa), most units can’t take too much enemy phase alone. There’s some of the “I should just fly Percival/Seth” around feeling midgame with Ryoma, but it drops off after a while. The game simply rewards sticking, and working together to take advantage of stuff like Attack Stance, aura-skills, Rally, staves (Physic/Autumn is limited stock, heals like nothing, and has 5 uses).

There’s a considerable amount of defeat boss/seize in the lategame, so it might be expected a single primary high move Pair would suffice. But Nohr trolls you with Poison stacks/Infinite Staves/Negative chain and such (and only 1 Rescue?), and even in other routes there’s sometimes secondary objectives needed to open up the path. The point being sometimes a lot of combat needs to happen to clear efficiently, and can’t always just send 1 mount to each objective. Need other units and classes sometimes, with better skills/stats.

That said, Yuugiri, Crimson, Camilla, Xander are still all amazing, and Dark Falcon->Revenant Knight/Dark Knight might still be the best Corrin build (Horse God and triangle against bows, kinda works). High bases not just move are probably the most important thing there (Ryoma is arguably even more impressive), and Avatar gonna Avatar. I’ll probably have to reevaluate the other mounts later, but these are the impressions right now.

[Luninareph]

So... I don't have the game yet, so I can't say for sure, but I would like to tentatively suggest that you're looking at Hinata wrong. I say this mostly because you suggest his SPD can be fixed, which seems unlikely to impossible unless somebody seduces the RNG into consenting to it. But that is, I think, the point. Hinata is supposed to be doubled, because he's intended to be a tanky counter character.

My theory is, Hinata has Oni Savage as his second class set because he's intended to pick up Counter from Shura to supplement his passive. If you Parallel Seal him into an Oni Savage immediately upon recruitment, he'll have 75% HP growth and 65% DEF growth, which is nuts for Hoshido; promote him into a Blacksmith for 75% HP and 60% DEF, then dip into Shura later to pick up Counter and even more DEF if needed. Buddy him to Subaki for Eastern Heart (also, Mirror Strike is good when he needs to take out a mage) and MAYBE pick up Strength Seal/ Line of Death/ Swordfaire from Samurai promotions if you want (he has crap SKL as well as SPD, so Astra is probably not worth the effort since it'll rarely proc). End as Shura for more DEF or Blacksmith for more HP and swords. You now have a self-healing Countering tank who increases his damage after he's been beaten up enough to proc his passive, which will happen pretty easily because people will double him, which just speeds them closer to death.

As I say, I don't know how viable this is in practice. Maybe the designers did just seriously undertune him by mistake. But I think that was what they were going for, and the logic seems sound. It definitely seems better than trying to fix Hinata's godawful 15% SPD growth.

[Water Mage]

There's something I've been meaning to ask,

does having the ability to use Dragon's Vein affect the unit's viability in some way?

Or is it not that important?

[XeKr]

So... I don't have the game yet, so I can't say for sure, but I would like to tentatively suggest that you're looking at Hinata wrong. I say this mostly because you suggest his SPD can be fixed, which seems unlikely to impossible unless somebody seduces the RNG into consenting to it. But that is, I think, the point. Hinata is supposed to be doubled, because he's intended to be a tanky counter character.

My theory is, Hinata has Oni Savage as his second class set because he's intended to pick up Counter from Shura to supplement his passive. If you Parallel Seal him into an Oni Savage immediately upon recruitment, he'll have 75% HP growth and 65% DEF growth, which is nuts for Hoshido; promote him into a Blacksmith for 75% HP and 60% DEF, then dip into Shura later to pick up Counter and even more DEF if needed. Buddy him to Subaki for Eastern Heart (also, Mirror Strike is good when he needs to take out a mage) and MAYBE pick up Strength Seal/ Line of Death/ Swordfaire from Samurai promotions if you want (he has crap SKL as well as SPD, so Astra is probably not worth the effort since it'll rarely proc). End as Shura for more DEF or Blacksmith for more HP and swords. You now have a self-healing Countering tank who increases his damage after he's been beaten up enough to proc his passive, which will happen pretty easily because people will double him, which just speeds them closer to death.

As I say, I don't know how viable this is in practice. Maybe the designers did just seriously undertune him by mistake. But I think that was what they were going for, and the logic seems sound. It definitely seems better than trying to fix Hinata's godawful 15% SPD growth.

It’s an interesting idea and tbh I can’t really say how it would work. Hinata does have very good Def in the Oni line, but that doesn’t mean a lot since "good" Def in this game might be like a 4hko or 5hko, which is effectively a 2-3hko if doubled. However, his base Spd is certainly good enough that he’ll avoid the double for a while.

Actually, it might be possible to just stack defense like crazy (16 base Def in Oni + 65% growth + 3 from Shura later + 4-6 from Rinkah + 2 Sakuraura + 2 Demoiselle + 2 Battle Command + 3 Horse God even?). It’s like up 24ish Def at base level 10 which is huge, up to like 37ish at just 20/1, which is definitely quite great and probably better than what I have suggested. Unlike Nohr, enemies won't ignore you either.

Another thought is, being doubled actually builds the Dual Guard gauge faster than most tanks, like Dragonstone users or Knights w/ Defensive Formation, which will block a lot of damage against selective enemies (save against mages if possible). So he could be sorta like Xander in that sense.

The Counter thing could work, just that it’s a level 15 skill so unless you buy it won’t be used for very long. His Personal does add some damage however, which does matter a bit as Hinata needs to rebuild weapon ranks and won't hit too hard regardless.

edit: Yeah it's kinda unintuitive but actually I do think it could work throughout a good portion of the game, even if not grabbing all the skills mentioned. A little writeup added.

There's something I've been meaning to ask,

does having the ability to use Dragon's Vein affect the unit's viability in some way?

Or is it not that important?

It does matter as the effects do impact the battles, to various degrees. I suppose you just have so many users of it that it doesn't feel like a big deal (maybe because I used all the royal children). I suppose Hinoka is notable for being a flying user of it, certainly (but not so different from Subaki flying another user, for example).

Edited July 31, 2015 by XeKr

[Luninareph]

edit: Yeah it's kinda unintuitive but actually I do think it could work throughout a good portion of the game, even if not grabbing all the skills mentioned. A little writeup added.

Woo! My idea might work! I'm glad I could help! :D

[avengerfive]

Hey since you are doing a lunatic run, can you answer a few questions? 1. What is an optimal team size? 10-12? And are children necessary? Both are for a lunatic run.

[XeKr]

Woo! My idea might work! I'm glad I could help! :D

Thanks for your help. ^_^

I don’t claim to know all the good ways of using the units, especially since there’s so many mechanics (and interactions between them) in this game. I probably wouldn’t have noticed something like that for a while, since I’m used to valuing Spd so much. So it’s nice for different perspectives.

Hey since you are doing a lunatic run, can you answer a few questions? 1. What is an optimal team size? 10-12? And are children necessary? Both are for a lunatic run.

I’d say 10 is a reasonable number, since that’s around 5-6 kids (with Kanna and Shigure), to about fill out the lategame 16 deployment slots. But more or less 1st gen units could certainly work out too. While concentrating exp into a smallish team is still relevant, as typical of FE, it's slightly less dominant of a strategy in this game because of how the exp formula seems to work.

I wouldn’t say children are necessary but simply just useful. They have base stats on par with your other units and can inherit skills, so your team can expand in size with no real cost. It’s generally nice to have more competent units available because of Attack Stance and enemy debuffs. Plus their better caps might come into play during the final few chapters.

[avengerfive]

Thanks! Im probably going to do Nohr Lunatic first, but after Im going to do Hoshido Lunatic, so your impressions are really useful!

[Emperor Hardin]

Has anyone thought about the bosses.

A Berserker like Gazzak with Great Shield, Stubborness, and Ravenstrike(Super accuracy on a Berserker)!

[-Cynthia-]

I'm guessing using the 'sealing' skills hasn't been a big part of your strategy given their lack of mention of your Oboro impressions.

[XeKr]

Thanks! Im probably going to do Nohr Lunatic first, but after Im going to do Hoshido Lunatic, so your impressions are really useful!

Nohr Lunatic is a great challenge for a first FE14 run, so look forward to it. The children are particularly useful later since Camilla, Xander, Corrin can’t carry you if they’re all half maxhp and -4 all stats. ;P

Has anyone thought about the bosses.

A Berserker like Gazzak with Great Shield, Stubborness, and Ravenstrike(Super accuracy on a Berserker)!

Something I might try to do my next run is to keep track of the capturable bosses. Right now I’m not aware of a good resource on them, so it’s hard to know which ones are good. Gazzak's Def growth is quite impressive though.

I'm guessing using the 'sealing' skills hasn't been a big part of your strategy given their lack of mention of your Oboro impressions.

It’s more I prefer Ninjas/Dread Fighters and Draconic Curse, I think. And it’s not too hard to team up and kill things with Attack Stance, even without Seal debuffs, especially if hit strongly by Corrin/Camilla/Crimson/Xander/etc (Defense Seal is just +12 damage which is chip). And some units like Ryoma or trained Bowman!Mozume just straight up oneround enemies, even fairly bulky ones, at full hp. Debuffing wasn’t really in past games, so it also doesn’t naturally come to mind as much. Simple chip+kill is ingrained.

Hinoka/Oboro are probably okay tank+debuffing with the Guard/Reverse Naginata but midgame it’s kinda pointless and later I think Hp/Def doesn’t really hold up. For that matter I did find Shinonome kinda useful in that role because of his Def, so it probably would’ve gotten mentioned there. Kanna also kinda does the same in Nohr/Invisible and just seems better/more flexible. More def especially with Dragonstone+ or Levin Sword for solid 1-2 range, etc.

I probably should’ve mentioned it, but the fact I didn’t remember to shows how unimpressive I found Hinoka. >_>

Though I suspect if I didn’t use Dread Fighter Corrin for a lot of Hoshido/Invisible, it may have been more useful. The latter is actually fairly harsh to other earlygame units, in no-grind conditions, so debuffs could be more significant.

Edited August 1, 2015 by XeKr

[Thor Odinson]

Who was the mother for your Shinonome?

[XeKr]

Mozume in Hoshido, Camilla in Invisible. Notably, I don't think Aptitude affects too much base stat inheritance (different formula now) and Shinonome's own level ups (recruited like 20/6). I do think mother's growths affect Shinonome a little, but it's mainly his own bases/growths (for autolevel to 20 and Child Seal) are solid I think.

Edited August 1, 2015 by XeKr

[Thor Odinson]

Mozume in Hoshido, Camilla in Invisible. Notably, I don't think Aptitude affects too much base stat inheritance (different formula now) and Shinonome's own level ups (recruited like 20/6). I do think mother's growths affect Shinonome a little, but it's mainly his own bases/growths (for autolevel to 20 and Child Seal) are solid I think.

That's good to know. He's the kid I care most about c:

[Dark Sage]

So I take it debuffs are more useful in the enemies' hands than in the players' hands? If so, is it by a significant amount?

[XeKr]

Right, for example Lance Fighters and Ninjas were pretty scary in early Nohr when I first started, low Hp means you have situations where you Def stack with Pair Up/Elise/etc and feel immortal or like 24hko’d but suddenly get 4hko’d after debuffs. It’s not always that extreme. Maybe it’s 3 damage for a 9hko turning into 9 damage for 3hko, etcetc, but you get the idea.

We need to keep our characters alive so the debuffs persist on them, while debuffed enemies are less important because they should be dead instead. This can get really crazy in the lategame when Negative Chain lets them stack debuffs, otherwise it’s “just” -4 to 6ish in a stat.

This (being more useful for enemies) is true for a few other mechanics too. For example the enemy uses Silver for extra damage with impunity because the debuff stack rarely matters for them whereas over time our units would get too weak from repeated use. The enemy also uses Poison/percentage based skills better, since they trigger on the user’s turn and we tend to let them attack our high Def units on their phase. The enemy has more units and generally gets more benefit from the “user trigger” skills, including massive stuff like +40 hit or +10 Def. Line of Death helps them a bit more because their units are expendable, ours are not. Cut Through breaks our chokepoints or formations, exposing healers/Azura. And so on.

Edited August 1, 2015 by XeKr

[Ayra]

I kind of like the resist seal on Rinkah; since her main use is to pull enemies, she spreads out the resist Seal around. I tend to have Orochi following Rinkah closely. So if Rinkah pulled two enemies, she can sometime kill one using her magic as Oni with Orochi's dual attack (who is really good at that especially with the seal appliedl) and Orochi can kill the other by herself. Without the resist seal, Rinkah would definitively be worse. Of course, someone like Effie can do all that better without even needing Orochi (or anyone) at all, but... yeah. That's why even though I get some use out of Rinkah, I definitively agree with your "Don't use" rating from a gameplay perspective.

I did try Hinoka as an Holy Lancer on 3rd path playthrough (instead of a very mediocre pegasus knight in my two Hoshido playthrough) and she's faring much, much better.

I pretty much agree with all your ratings actually. There's some slight differences (Like I rate Jacob lower than you), but overall I definitively approve throughout.Thumbs up!

[Minischew]

That was really interesting to read! On a side note, I have two questions...

(a) I heard that Setsuna's a really good mom, particularly due to her Spd mod. Given how powerful the children are, would this make her a more valuable character? If we're thinking of using children, would the investment be worth it?

(b) You mention child units once or twice. Do you plan on writing about them as well?

Thank you for the impressions! I really love having an idea of how the units perform before delving into the game.

[lysander]

(a) I heard that Setsuna's a really good mom, particularly due to her Spd mod. Given how powerful the children are, would this make her a more valuable character? If we're thinking of using children, would the investment be worth it?

Stuff like +3 max spd mod doesn't really factor into main-game lunatic runs since you're not expected to hit max stats, especially with the revamped exp system--what you've read is in reference to post-game or My Castle theory-crafting.

The rating system he's using is for how easy it is to naturally use characters during the course of the main-game on lunatic with "use" for characters who are easy to use to great effect, "maybe use" for characters who, in theory, should be decently easy to make use of and to decent-good effect and "don't use" for characters you'd have to go out of the way to try to fit into your army/keep in your army as the game progresses. "don't use" isn't really the same as bad so much as it is "you'd have to try harder/might have to ditch them after all if the right stats fail to go up at the right time".

As an example, Setsuna's "don't use" rating comes from a-bit-too-low str for her join time and the number of other, easier to use bows you get/already have. Obviously if somebody had her gain 2 levels of str and everything else in her join chapter--would on average take the +7 levels he cited--or felt like using stat-items on her to boost her up to speed, she'd instantly become a "maybe use" or even a "use" if things kept up. Or if somebody did want to plan ahead for post-game, even if it would make the lunatic run a bit harder, her +3 max spd mod might be a personal factor for consideration but by the basic metric he's using it normally would not be. This is something people, more generally, fail to realize when looking at actual tier lists as well--on higher difficulty ranked FE7 for instance you're usually feeding exp to a variety of characters and if some of them happen to gain good levels in the course of that you might shift them into your army semi-permanently or even permanently no matter where they'd normally end up on the list. This seems to again be the standard in Fates due to exp system changes/increased deployment.

Edited August 2, 2015 by lysander