Return of the Emblem: Chat

[Phoenix]

I only see names when people are editing things or making suggestions (but anonymous accounts are a good alternative). If anyone knows what the character limit for posts on SF are, let me know because that's one of the reasons I didn't just put everything directly into the proposal post.

[Mercakete]

Is there any way we can start working on our "character journals" I think you called them? It seems pretty concise, so we can start putting things together that way.

[Phoenix]

There are a couple more things I want to set up first but I'll send out the join links via pm once that's done. I should probably get some sleep first, though. Anyone who wants a link to the campaign lemme know and I'll get those sent first thing tomorrow.

[Mercakete]

Hmm. It's weird that mounts don't occupy a space when they're not in use. And if there isn't one, there should be a skill or something that allows a mount to follow his or her rider. Vehicles are not living creatures, so I understand why they'd be stationary. Also, if mounting is a standard action, that means they can't move in the same phase (unless that was simply discluded) and doesn't make much sense. I think there should at least be (if there isn't already one) a skill that allows a character to mount up and then use their move, even if they can't use another standard action that phase. Same with taking off for flight.

Speaking of flight, so, flying units can only counter other flying units. I didn't see any mention of it, so can grounded units only counter fellow grounded units?

Also, I noticed that in the capturing section, it mentions transferring a captured unit to another unit, but only briefly touches upon that. Does the unit taking the captive have to agree to the action? And it's never mentioned in the rescuing section. Can rescued units not be transferred to other allies?

Over all, there's a lot of good information here, and I think it's very well put-together and thought-through. Good job.

Things I found funny:

- "Units can only be shoved one space per attempt, and only onto passable terrain." + "Flight is also the only means of passing over ‘sky’ terrain." That one jerk who shoves that one unconscious dude into sky terrain.

- "OBSCURE: Activates automatically; if the user's faction begins its turn and at least 2 allies are within 2 spaces of the user, the user's Evasion is increased by 25% for the duration of that turn." Basically, "meatshield."

- "STALKER:" Just this name.

Ok, as a note, I haven't read the Nihil or Summoned Companions pages yet. I've gone over the rest of it, though, I think.

[Phoenix]

Hmm. It's weird that mounts don't occupy a space when they're not in use. And if there isn't one, there should be a skill or something that allows a mount to follow his or her rider.

The original version of Rider did that in a roundabout way, but was removed recently (by recently I mean like January probably).

As for taking a space, the reason they don't take up space is because independently controlled units have to have their own stat sets, and thus, their own character sheets, and consequently not being something equipped but instead being something riders are pseudo rescued by. Taking up space also directly plays into combat, which while somewhat reasonable can be abused in some pretty dumb ways. Finding the most workable balance between an item you slap on for large bonuses and effects and a second fully functional character with full stats and a custom 'mount' class is extremely difficult. Vehicles are a bit different since they're just big objects you have to mount before you can even control (Eg: Ballista). I just don't want to reach that point where anyone who gets a mount is effectively using two fully functional independent characters when unmounted (and get mad at me when said mounts start taking fire lol).

Vehicles are not living creatures, so I understand why they'd be stationary.

Stationary mounts is an old artifact I forgot to get rid of when Rider's 'mount whistling' mechanic was removed. Characters should be able to mount back up in any allowed area without backtracking. I'll remove that bit from the rules doc.

Also, if mounting is a standard action, that means they can't move in the same phase (unless that was simply discluded) and doesn't make much sense. I think there should at least be (if there isn't already one) a skill that allows a character to mount up and then use their move, even if they can't use another standard action that phase. Same with taking off for flight.

It might be doable, though I do personally prefer slowed mounting since it's A: slightly more realistic in a lot of instances, and B: a good way of balancing the bonuses mounts would be granting, generally in the area of more HP, AS, EVD, DEF and RES in specific cases, more MOV, and for attack mounts, standard attacks that are independent of the user's stats.

Granted, a skill to speed certain aspects of this up isn't a bad idea so I'll consider it (or maybe just an amendment to the Rider skill lol). What I think I'll do for now though is allow post-mounting movement and post-mounting takeoff only when a character hasn't already moved and likewise allow post-takeoff movement only if a mounted unit hasn't already moved. That paces things without making flying mounts too much of a burden to get going.

Speaking of flight, so, flying units can only counter other flying units. I didn't see any mention of it, so can grounded units only counter fellow grounded units?

This one's a bit tricky. The restriction of air to ground counters has nothing to do with flavor (or mounts specifically) and everything to do with limiting effectiveness from the air(the only other one currently in place is increased damage under specific circumstances). Since making it two sided would defeat the purpose of that mechanic, I'd probably just allow air to ground counters and look for a different fix there.

Also, I noticed that in the capturing section, it mentions transferring a captured unit to another unit, but only briefly touches upon that. Does the unit taking the captive have to agree to the action? And it's never mentioned in the rescuing section. Can rescued units not be transferred to other allies?

You make no assumptions. That's hilarious lol. But yeah rescued units can be transferred, but only to willing recipients. I'll note it in the rescue section.

Ok, as a note, I haven't read the Nihil or Summoned Companions pages yet. I've gone over the rest of it, though, I think.

Duly noted.

[Toogee]

I glanced through the docs a bit. If this goes through, I'll convert Jam to Tactician and just flavor the names of her skills. Not sure what to do with weapons; Tacticians can't use light magic, but they can use swords. I'll see how her stats add up and plan accordingly. Will there be some sort of story element to explain the changes?

Regarding the current system: If the next battle is our last in the current system, should we forget about saving up points and spend them now? I assume everything is reset once the new system goes through.

[Phoenix]

Will there be some sort of story element to explain the changes?

I'm not against some plot fiasco explaining some of this, but only with regard to the PCs. A global event would just be a pointless distraction.

Regarding the current system: If the next battle is our last in the current system, should we forget about saving up points and spend them now? I assume everything is reset once the new system goes through.

Points are going to be converted into any combination of XP or Gold people want, and people can refund anything they don't want to keep post-update, so spending them now won't really change anything.

While we're on that topic I need to note that points aren't actually being scrapped. I was trying to figure out a way to deal with newcomers and XP/Gold allotments and points seem to be the best solution.

Scroll down to 'How Points Work' for more details on how that's currently going to be handled in the update/overhaul.

XP Gold & Points

[Mercakete]

Regarding...well, all of your reply post: ok. I actually have no disagreements, here, and understand things better now, so thanks. I'll post things here if I have any more questions.

Edit: Ah, so, you can only have 1 discipline and 6 skills equipped at a time. However, is it possible to actually have more of them, and just switch them around between battles? Does it cost exp/gold to switch them around?

Edit again: Ah, and do guns/whips/etc. still calc MT off of the skill stat?

Another Edit: So, for the tactician line, I know you have to buy each variant of the two skills individually (or does 1 come free as your first one?), but do they each count to the total of 6 skills, or are the considered a part of 1 skill? (Like, if you bought all of them, would you skill slots be full, or would you still have 4 open?)

Edited June 30, 2016 by Mercakete

[Phoenix]

Ah, so, you can only have 1 discipline and 6 skills equipped at a time. However, is it possible to actually have more of them, and just switch them around between battles? Does it cost exp/gold to switch them around?

PCs can purchase and keep as many skills and disciplines as they want. The limits in place are just for simultaneous use.

Ah, and do guns/whips/etc. still calc MT off of the skill stat?

Extremely unlikely that they would post-update.

So, for the tactician line, I know you have to buy each variant of the two skills individually (or does 1 come free as your first one?), but do they each count to the total of 6 skills, or are the considered a part of 1 skill? (Like, if you bought all of them, would you skill slots be full, or would you still have 4 open?)

For Tacticians, they can grab any of their class skills as a starter. They're each individual skills though. Think of 'Orders' and 'Tactics' as category names to better distinguish the underlying entries. As hilarious as six skills in two would be, I'd be left with a problem ... I'd need four more skills for the class' skillset that would somehow not push their utility through the roof ... which is a lulzy prospect.

[Mercakete]

Ah, I see some of the PC's in Fight are doing some kimono shopping. Nice. Hey, if you'd like I found a neat, easy-to-read guide that can help your kimono shopkeeper keep competent in her field (or if you just want to learn more about kimonos/yukatas.) Here's the link: http://blog.fromjapan.co.jp/en/fashion/all-about-kimono-and-yukata-the-differences-how-to-wear-buy.html

Should have everything you need there. Keep in mind that it's late spring in the rp right now, unless it's transitioned into early summer without me noticing... Bird?

[Phoenix]

Still late spring.

Also, more news ... in light of the mount conundrum and another minor issue I was having, I'm considering a twofold fix. In a nutshell, I'd be removing the Summoner class, reducing the final total to 12, tweaking the former summoner skills for broader use, and placing them in the Special Skill category. For those that really need to be able to ride their mount and see them on the field, too, they could use the summon skill to more or less get the effect they're looking for. I'm hoping to cover various types of flavoring, like an independent mount, a pet, a demon summoned from the sanctums, or even something similar to Tanith's reinforce skill, though to a lesser extent numbers-wise.

I still want to make sure roll20's not too much for anyone's computers, so again, if anyone's got a particularly slow computer, I'd like to get you on there to see how it responds.

[Mercakete]

Are the skills/class docs updated with the new class/skill information, then? Is this going to change the mount mechanics? If so, how? Will the mount section in the docs be updated? If so, when?

[Phoenix]

Are the skills/class docs updated with the new class/skill information, then? Is this going to change the mount mechanics? If so, how? Will the mount section in the docs be updated? If so, when?

Still in the consideration phase. No changes happening yet. If it does go through it's not going to change the mount mechanics, only give people an in-game option for some of their mount flavoring, among other things.

[Mercakete]

Regarding summon skills, how do they work with mounts? Can a rider "summon" a mount? It seems so, based on what you said earlier. If that happens, though, shouldn't restrictions be put up for the rider? It doesn't make sense for a rider to be mounted while their mount is next to them. How does dismissal work for "summoned" mounts?

[Phoenix]

I'll make the specific rules for mount related summons after the actual mount items exist. As for how dismissing summoned mounts would work, it'd be the same as a regular companion, only they would just become mountable again when their token goes away.

[Mercakete]

How many spaces would a token take up? For some mounts, it wouldn't make much sense for them to take up the same amount of space as someone whose maximum height is below 8ft tall and maximum width is 5ft wide. Unless the squares are bigger than I'm thinking? Maybe they're big enough to fit an equine. But what about wyverns or some of those demons the Fallen summon, like the Dread?

[Phoenix]

Representative token sizes will vary by type, but not species specifically. Available species will be noted in the mount items, but there won't be any unique to any one of them, because there are only three sizes planned: standard, 2x2, and 3x3. Anything beyond that is getting into the realm of hyper realism and isn't going to help anything in practice.

[Script]

Alright, time to get off my lazy arse.

I can probably run that roll20s thing.

Xenia is fine with the stat switches and loves the skill switches.

Gar likes the skill changes but has a hearty "FUCK NO!" to the stat change since it ruins him so badly. No changing into a Thief either. Probably the same "NOPE!" for weapons since there's not gonna be any SKL weapons left.

Since, let's face it, Gar is my main and Xenia's basically just a staffbot. I'm saying no go on this.

[Phoenix]

Objections that have nothing to do with a specific PC's niche being changed in some way have been almost nonexistent. I am curious though; what can't Gar do with the information that's already available?

[Script]

This is going to come across as exceedingly petty so bear with me. The new stat shifts for Myrmidon mean Gar's getting +2 HP and +2 STR over his old self, but losing -2 SKL and -2 SPD. The SKL to MT lose is technically the minor point here, since new Skills and the higher Strength will be compensating for it, but the SPD lose is pretty killer for current Gar and future Gar. Just using the current stats for the Stilettos he has equipped since I don't know how the new ones works, means he drops a Doubling Tier down from Doubling 9s to Doubling 8s. This sounds exceedingly minor, but just using the Flight Challenge at 12 SPD Gar Doubles 11/15 Enemies. At 10 SPD he doubles 9/15 enemies. But with a Bard boost of +1 AS, current Gar now doubles 10s, which means he doubles everyone in the Flight Challenge 15/15. At 12 SPD he can potentially Double all 15 enemies, at 10 SPD he can only double 9 enemies. Not a lot, but he loses some flexibility and power.

It also drops EVD down 2 points. At his current 19 EVD and using the same Flight Enemies as above, Gar would be Auto-Hits Only (AHO) for 10 enemies, 6s Only (6O) for 4 enemies and the Boss had always Hit. At a new17 EVD he's now at AHO for 6 enemies, 5-6 rolls for 4 enemies, 4-5-6 rolls for 4 enemies, and the same auto-hit always for Boss.

4 enemies at 16% chance to Hit him now becomes 4 enemies with a 50% chance to hit. And four more now have a 33% chance.

While the SKL=MT problem can be dealt with the new Skills and Disciplines, very little deals with Attack Speed. Yes, Gar will gain quite a bit of MT due to the new system's peculiarities, but so will everyone I presume and I'm assuming enemy armor is gonna be a lot more common.

I acknowledge that Thieves now have the stat set I desire, but they more importantly lose out on Vantage, the Skill I desire most.

I also just don't like having more HP on him because I prefer to have him as the frailest guy / roleplay it as running early whatever.

Like I said, very VERY petty.

[Phoenix]

Yeah, that did mostly read as 'Gar isn't an untouchable paper tiger, anymore' lol

Since you brought up the items I'm going to go ahead and point out that weapons, magic, and armor wouldn't increase any stat via percentage, anymore. They would all be flat increases going forward. That includes mounts as well. I'm also (well I was; right now I'm taking a break from the conversion to experiment with some alternative ideas) removing some of the current effects since they can work better as specific stat bonuses. The only stat that you couldn't boost by using some non-mount item once the conversion's finished would be MOV. I'll also be adding new items post-conversion depending on how the list looks.

This is also relevant to your HP issue because if I can find the right balance of stats and effects, you might be able to keep Gar's HP below 15 by tier 3 and below 12 while at tier 2. Whether or not it could work that way depends on if any items wind up with HP nerfs or if I can standardize everything well enough to let people forge weapons (stat nerfs would be forgable to help lower costs, basically).

Now, I don't want to give the impression that I'm trying to preserve everything about the current system. PCs aren't meant to be almost impossible to hit, be able to double all enemies bar none, kill anything in one round with no setup, or consistently tink every possible attack. Update or no update enemies are going to get tougher and more flexible going forward (especially in the current system since I tend to overgear them to get around various issues and Luna's pretty busy these days lol). Anyway, keep in mind that there's more than just damage and evasion. Items are going to have nearly as much range as skills but deal in flat numbers instead of percentages, and aside from anything overly petty, should address any of the old character niches in some way.

[Mercakete]

wrt stat nerfs on forged items, which stats would the nerfs be affecting: simp stats or raw stats? It seems to me that it should be simp since otherwise physical fighters could just subtract mag all day (winding up with something silly like -500mag), and vise-versa for magic users (unless there's a cap on that? (like "no simp stat can go below 0 and simp HP can't go below 1.) Still seems silly/abusable to me.)

[scorri]

I mean, probably just say a raw stat can't go below zero, done?

[Mercakete]

As I said, it still seems silly/abusable to me. Like, if you invested all your level up stats into three stats (say, str/mag/skl,) then making the item -mag and +str for all those stat points, you could make someone severely broken. But if it was limited to simp, then you're only trading in mt/hit/AS/etc., balancing the system out more evenly.

[Phoenix]

They affect simplified stats (raws can't go below zero anyway since that's how I wrote up the sheet).

Bonuses and penalties are adjusted here and factor into the final value, which can potentially push it into the negatives ... and no, you can't equip anything or a combination of things that nerf your HP below 1.

Now about forging, which is still precariously balanced on the edge of the table, there is going to be a maximum stat adjustment per item, though I haven't settled on the exact numbers because forging's the least important thing I've got on my plate atm, but I just want that to be known since NPCs are always getting everything for free and a lack of caps is just a 'No' and an internet wrist slap waiting to happen. There's a bit of dragging down and a bit of lifting up in this proposal because I feel that lessening the gap between PC abilities and NPC abilities is needed. Forging would play into that somewhat, too, but again, it's low priority right now.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Phoenix