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Rate the Unit, Day 37: Lucia


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Dat Rules (stolen/borrowed from Integrity)

- Ratings are assumed to be on Hard Mode+Fixed Mode.

- Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted. If somebody else said what you want to already, quote them explicitly.

+/- ≤1 point extra regarding personality/appearance is encouraged, but no more. If you exercise your bias privileges, please do so explicitly.

- Numerical votes out of 10, or something proportional to it. Make it easy to calculate for my sake.

- Every ranking phase ends whenever I get out of bed, between 0700 and 0800 EST. Do the math for your timezone, Brits.

- I will insist you do not use the "Not X" reason on any character, where X is another unit. If you do, your vote will be thrown out.

- "Recruits X" or "takes you to X chapter" arguments are explicitly banned. C'mon, people, this shouldn't need to be a rule. That's not gameplay performance.

- Assume that the character in question is being recruited.

- Similar to the "Recruits X" rule, do not use "she brings the sonic sword" or any other justification as an argument.

- BEXP is free to be used in any quantity on any character.

- Rating a unit too low because you think its overrated will make me throw away your vote without mercy public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif.

- I withhold the privilege to tell you your rating is bogus and demand you revise it if it breaks any of the above. I will not throw out votes anonymously, you will be informed and given a chance to revise.

Averages:

Rolf: 1.15

Sothe: 2.03

Brom: 2.32

Tauroneo: 2.85

Shinon: 3.00

Janaff: 3.32

Ulki: 3.59

Ranulf: 3.93

Devdan: 4.11

Volke : 4.82

Ilyana: 4.98

Soren: 5.15

Rhys: 5.31

Gatrie: 5.46

Mia: 5.71

Muarim: 6.19

Mist: 6.41

Mordecai: 6.55

Makalov: 6.59

Tormod: 6.62

Zihark: 6.65

Haar: 6.73

Lethe: 6.75

Nephenee: 6.79

Callil: 7.21

Stefan: 7.40

Astrid: 7.76

Boyd: 8.29

Ike: 8.57

Tanith: 9.08

Oscar: 9.08

Kieran: 9.23

Jill: 9.31

Marcia: 9.36

Reyson: 9.79

Titania: 9.91

I always thought her white coat was badass.

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Forced in one chapter and can contribute chip damage, maybe ORKOing if she gets lucky with crits. However, she loses to trained Zihark and Mia, and while she has better luck, Stefan is better than she is at base. Late join time, swordlock, unreliable offence and fragility of a mage all speak against Lucia's value as a unit. Brings along a Laguzguard which is of some use here and there. Use her in the first chapter she starts in, and then don't deploy her again. 2.5/10

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Her base stats don't make up for her joining time and that there is almost no way that u could do to make her any good. But at least she could support well with Ilyana as she has an epic affinity, Earth. Other than for support and forging her weapons, there is no other way that u could do to make her any good.

2.5/10

Edited by リンダ
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PROS:

-really high growths (415% total growth)

CONS:

-terrible base stats

-sword locked

-bad offense

-bad durability

-7 movement, no canto

-low availability

Lucia is ultra bad. Swordmasters are a bad class and she is by far the worst one. Base Stefan is as good as 20/20 Lucia, and Mia and Zihark are better than a base LV Lucia at 20/5, even when leveled up without using bands...

She can kill stuff with silver forges or criticals, but there are about 20 other units who can do the same thing without relying on forges and criticals. Her durability is garbage; she will be 2HKOed by almost any enemy. Even the weakest enemies will 3HKO her.

0/10 - Yep, I done did it. I gave her a goose egg. There are just too many units who perform better than her...

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Hawk King bases his ratings on lies.

Anyways, mediocre bases(no Stefan having better bases than hers does not count against her), good growths but very little growing time and great affinity but unfortunately none of the characters she supports with are likely to be in play. Being swordlocked isn't great in this game to boot. She ends up being mediocre endgame filler and that's all there is to her.

2/10 +1 bias because she's the second-most attractive female in PoR(and RD as well) IMO for a score of 3/10

Edited by Daigoji Excellen
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@Hawk King- lucia is salvageable. She is definetely not 2HKO'd by every enemy. Shes 3HKO'd IIRC and she faces poor hitrates. Giving her a silver sword forge allows her to ORKO some stuff and she can use runesword decently. Her low availability and meh bases put her down but shes not OMGrolf or bastian bad. Another plus for lucia, is that you didnt have to tolerate any sucky start like you would with mia/zihark and she didnt require BEXP for swordlock. 2/10 +1 bias makes that 3/10

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Well... Lucia... Is a very late joiner. That right there caps her off at not getting above a 5 in my book. She's also got some relatively bad base stats. Actually, screw the relatively! Stefan came back in chapter 15 five levels lower and he had better stats than Lucia! To make it worse she has the only skill in the game that outright hurts it's own wielder by robbing them of support and terrain (Astra sucks, yes, but Parity is on a whole other level). It's not even like there are even enemy skills to negate in the first place! Her supports are poor as well. Sure, if she gets one, it's good, but Ilyana will have had multiple people who would make better supports since they're actually around and Janaff and Bastian are bad units as well!

That being said... Lucia has one thing on Bastian, Haar, and the like. She's redeemable. Sure, it may take a lot of BEXP, but she can be turned into a semi-passive SM. Her strength will always be low, but that can be fixed via a forge so that, while not great, it can at least do something. She doubles. She criticals...

3 (2 + 1 Personal)/10

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To make it worse [Lucia] has the only skill in the game that outright hurts it's own wielder

Tempest. Blossom (especially in fixed mode).

It's not even like there are even enemy skills to negate in the first place!

Several late-game enemies have skills. Some generic enemies in Endgame have skills.

That being said... Lucia has one thing on Bastian, Haar, and the like. She's redeemable.

Assuming you're talking about combat, how can Lucia ever compare favorably with Haar?

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Snowy_WOneder thinks dumping a truckload of BEXP and forging a Silver Dildo with +5 Mt / +9 Crit suddenly makes her better than someone that flies and only really needs Brave Weapons to function decently.

Part of me is surprised he doesn't do the same with Bastian, who actually is okay of he got shoveled to Level 20.

Edited by Colonel M
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@PKL -Bastion is definitely better than Lucia. He has siege tome utility. Lucia has a sucky start just like the other 2 Swordmasters. She just has less time and requires more resourses to be good. Also, Mia and Zihark have less competition for a deployment spot. Lucia has to compete with 4 flyers, 6 paladins, and the other 7 move units who actually have good, forgeable 1-2 attack range options.

Sure in a draft setting she could be decent, but when you are using every character in a LTC setting her contributions are next to nothing. Seriously, if she is used in every map what is she doing for us?

She cant move far enough to help complete any Chapter objectives, so the only thing she can do is kill out-of-the-way enemies for self-improvement.

I really dont think my rating is too harsh. Can she make any contributions toward the Chapter objectives for the remainder of her existence???

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Seriously, if she is used in every map what is she doing for us?

She cant move far enough to help complete any Chapter objectives, so the only thing she can do is kill out-of-the-way enemies for self-improvement.

I really dont think my rating is too harsh. Can she make any contributions toward the Chapter objectives for the remainder of her existence???

Uh, C25. All those Paladins we've been training suffer from poor mov. She can help with the rout. It's nothing spectacular, but it's something. Lucia might also be able to help collect some treasure in C27.

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@Aku Chi

Ok, its something i guess but you would almost have to go out of your way to the point of babying to make Lucia kill anything in Chapter 25, since Boyd, Ike, Stefan, and Nephenee exist. And collecting treasure is really trivial, and is never a Chapter objective.

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Snowy_WOneder thinks dumping a truckload of BEXP and forging a Silver Dildo with +5 Mt / +9 Crit suddenly makes her better than someone that flies and only really needs Brave Weapons to function decently.

Part of me is surprised he doesn't do the same with Bastian, who actually is okay of he got shoveled to Level 20.

I give Haar a brave axe, he attacks twice.

I give Lucia a brave sword, she attacks four times.

Lucia's attacks may be weaker, but she also attacks far more.

Also, in the event of the brave sword/axe breaking or being given to someone else, Lucia can function with a forge. Haar cannot.

Edit: The difference between Lucia with a forged silver, and Haar with a brave axe at 20/20 is 1 in favor of Lucia, who can still double when the sword is taken away (Haar cannot). This is ignoring that Lucia can make good use of skills and Haar cannot (even though you likely only have junky skills left by the time either joins). The only thing Haar has on Lucia is flying and rescue-dropping for the final few chapters.

Edit Edit: Also, at base level, Lucia beats Brave Axe Haar by 2 MT. I wouldn't say she's weaker. I would say she's factually stronger than Haar throughout their entire existence unless Haar can break free of his speed problems.

Edited by Snowy_One
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@ Hawk King- but siege tomes are very likely to be broken by the time Bastian joins :/. He also has terrible combat since he will never double. At least lucia has 7 move, crit chances and can double..not to mention that when bastian joins, there really isnt any need to have siege tomes, except MAYBE ch 27...

Edited by PKL
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I give Haar a brave axe, he attacks twice.

I give Lucia a brave sword, she attacks four times.

Lucia's attacks may be weaker, but she also attacks far more.

Good thing his attacks are massively stronger. Haar w/ brave axe has 31 attack. Lucia w/ brave sword has 23 attack. The weakest enemy in the chapter has 8 defense. Lucia will do 60 damage total, probably avoiding a counter. Haar will do 44, also probably avoiding a counter. There's a pretty big gap there, but both are 2HKOing and it only gets worse for Lucia from there. The highest def enemy is Rikard, whom Haar actually has a chance of reaching, though Jill/Marcia should be killing him. He has 20. Haar's doing a total of 22 damage. Lucia's doing a total of 12. Yeah, she's doing a lot better there. Hell, 12 defense enemies, which are pretty common only put their total damage output 6 points apart, and Haar's avoiding a counter there while Lucia isn't.

Also, in the event of the brave sword/axe breaking or being given to someone else, Lucia can function with a forge. Haar cannot.

So you're going to give Lucia a bunch of silver forges when all Haar needs is one speedwing to have good combat? Heck, he doesn't even need that, just get him overleveled with bexp and a speed band and he'll be fine, with 20.6 speed.

Edit: The difference between Lucia with a forged silver, and Haar with a brave axe at 20/20 is 1 in favor of Lucia, who can still double when the sword is taken away (Haar cannot). This is ignoring that Lucia can make good use of skills and Haar cannot (even though you likely only have junky skills left by the time either joins). The only thing Haar has on Lucia is flying and rescue-dropping for the final few chapters.

Edit Edit: Also, at base level, Lucia beats Brave Axe Haar by 2 MT. I wouldn't say she's weaker. I would say she's factually stronger than Haar throughout their entire existence unless Haar can break free of his speed problems.

Wow, Lucia beats Haar by one or two attack with a weapon that has 8 more might. She's definitely not weaker :facepalm: . Anyway, with the brave axe, Haar is ORKOing all the same enemies as Lucia and avoiding counters on top of it. To fix her problem, Lucia needs constant silver forges, which takes some away from other people, or both energy drops (plus probably bexp and she'll still probably want forges), and then she's still swordlocked with 7 move and bad durability. Haar takes one speedwing or a bexp dump and then he has solid combat, very good durability, and 9 move flight.

Anyway, Lucia's pretty terrible. Terrible bases, worse than most prepromos, and on top of that, she doesn't have the time to grow to fix those bases. Then all the usual SM problems. Also, base level Stefan really is on par with 20 Lucia, sans luck. Anyway, terrible unit, but if you pour enough resources into her, she can become passable.

1.5/10 + 1 bias = 2.5/10

Edited by bottlegnomes
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I don't think she's that terrible. I mean, she's not awesome, but she does have some purpose. She's free in Chapter 25 and can do quite well against the Berserker reinforcements. In the next chapter, all of our Paladins are gimped, and there are lots of enemies with axes on the mountain, giving her some way to level herself. Her bases aren't very good at all (10 base defense as a Lv.--/12 unit, what? ). But her growths are seriously some of the best for the beorcs in this game (all of her growths are better than rival Stefan's, for example). So while her bases are indeed lacking, her growth rates can somewhat migate them. I think that her bottom/low tier position is deserved, but I don't think she's the third worst unit in the game (she can have some use on her free map unlike Rolf);

3 +1 bias = 4/10

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2/10. While she's terrible on account of lowish bases for her level, she's salvageable, which is more than can be said of a certain green haired archer.

Edited by Golden Cucco
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I give Haar a brave axe, he attacks twice.

I give Lucia a brave sword, she attacks four times.

Lucia's attacks may be weaker, but she also attacks far more.

Also, in the event of the brave sword/axe breaking or being given to someone else, Lucia can function with a forge. Haar cannot.

Edit: The difference between Lucia with a forged silver, and Haar with a brave axe at 20/20 is 1 in favor of Lucia, who can still double when the sword is taken away (Haar cannot). This is ignoring that Lucia can make good use of skills and Haar cannot (even though you likely only have junky skills left by the time either joins). The only thing Haar has on Lucia is flying and rescue-dropping for the final few chapters.

Edit Edit: Also, at base level, Lucia beats Brave Axe Haar by 2 MT. I wouldn't say she's weaker. I would say she's factually stronger than Haar throughout their entire existence unless Haar can break free of his speed problems.

Level 16 Haar: 24 Str, ~19 Spd

Level 16 Lucia: 17 Str, 13 Mag, ~26 Spd

Chapter 27

Random Knight: 34 HP, 20 Def, 9 Res, 5 AS

Haar ORKOs with a Hand Axe forge (barely), Steel Axe forge, Brave weapons, Silver weapons, Hammer.

Lucia can ORKO with the Runesword. She can deal 28 HP with a Silver Sword forge.

High-level General: 38 HP, 21 Def, 12 Res, 8 AS

Haar ORKOs with a Steel Axe forge, Brave weapons, Silver weapons, Hammer.

Lucia can deal 30 damage with the Runesword. She can deal 26 damage with a Silver Sword forge.

Random Warrior: 44 HP, 12 Def, 7 Res, 12 AS

Haar ORKOs with a Hand Axe forge, Steel axe, and superior weaponry.

Lucia needs a Silver Sword forge or the Brave Sword to ORKO (she's also borderline with the Runesword).

Toughest Swordmaster: 36 HP, 11 Def, 22 AS

Haar needs a Brave weapon to ORKO.

Lucia is borderline on doubling this fastest Swordmaster, but if she does, she can ORKO with a Steel Sword forge, Silver weapons, and Brave Sword.

Cat: 44 HP, 18 Def, 9 Res, 19 AS

Haar can deal 34 damage with the Brave Lance or 32 damage with the Laguz Axe.

Lucia can deal 38 damage with the Runesword or 34 damage with the Laguzslayer or a Silver Sword forge.

Toughest Tiger: 51 HP, 23 Def, 10 Res, 20 AS

Haar can deal 24 damage with the Brave Lance or 27 damage with the Laguz Axe.

Lucia can deal 36 damage with the Runesword (if she doubles) or 24 damage with the Laguzslayer or a Silver Sword forge.

Random Sniper: 33 HP, 13 Def, 14 AS

Haar can ORKO with anything (including an unforged Javelin or Iron Lance).

Lucia can just barely ORKO with a Steel Sword forge or better.

Toughest Sage: 31 HP, 10 Def, 13 AS

Haar can ORKO with anything (including an unforged Javelin or Iron Lance).

Lucia can ORKO with an Iron Sword forge or better.

Fastest Halberdier: 40 HP, 14 Def, 9 Res, 15 AS

Haar is borderline on doubling, but if he does, he can ORKO with a Hand Axe forge, Steel axe, and superior weaponry.

Lucia is borderline on ORKOing with a Silver Sword forge and has no chance with any other weapon.

Hawk: 42 HP, 16 Def, 9 Res, 18 AS

Haar can deal 38 damage with the Brave Lance or 34 damage with the Laguz Axe.

Lucia can ORKO with the Sonic Sword or deal 38 damage with the Laguzslayer or a Silver Sword forge.

Hafedd: 46 HP, 24 Def, 20 Res, 20 AS

Haar can deal 22 damage with a Silver Axe forge or a Brave weapon.

Lucia can deal 20 damage with a Silver Sword forge.

And let's not forget that Haar has a resounding durability advantage. Like, 11-12 HP, 10-11 Def, and 1 Res.

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Pros:

+A rank swords

+Earth affinity

+High growths

Cons:

-Lower bases at level 12 than Stefan at level 8, AND a lower weapon rank to boot. Wtf?

-10 def 8 res and 36 HP means you better hope she dodges

-Yet another swordmaster, but outclassed by the other 3 who already joined you

-Parity is terrible

-Even with her growths, has trouble capping stats

-The likelihood of making use of Lucia's supports is low

-Late joining

Lucia has a cool character design. She just looks really cool. Unfortunately, despite outward appearances, Lucia's stats for her level are trash. If I were going to use a prepromoted swordmaster, Stefan is better in every way conceivable except luck. Affinity be damned, Lucia's choice of supports is just terrible. Her best support is Janaff so she can get some more avoid and defence, because Lucia really has trouble taking hits, and in her starting chapter she can't even use the bushes to her advantage when taking on the berserker reinforcement (likely the only thing she'll even be in range to fight in the whole chapter). At level 12, her base strength is probably going to be worse than a freshly promoted Zihark, her defence will probably be worse, and their skill and speed will have nearly negligible differences.

If Zihark is level 12, Lucia will only be beating him in magic, luck, and res. On average, she'll be losing by 4 HP, 5 strength, 4 skill, 3 speed, and 5 defence. She'll have a magic advantage of 6, a luck advantage of 2, and a res advantage of 2. But by this point in the game, there aren't many mages left. Zihark also has a chance of activating Adept for an extra attack.

If Mia is level 12, she has smaller margins than Zihark, but still has a much larger speed margin. On average, Mia will beat Lucia's HP by 1 point, 3 strength, 2 skill, 3 speed, 1 luck, 4 defence, and 2 res. Average Mia beats Lucia in everything except magic, the stat that she'll never use since Mist is around. And we're not even factoring in that Mia has Vantage, one of the most broken skills in the game that makes up for her weak noodle arms.

If Stefan is level 12... On average, he'll beat Lucia's HP by 4, 6 strength, 7 skill, 4 speed, 3 defence, and 2 res. He'll lose in magic and Lucia trashes his luck by 10 points. I'd still rather have Astra than Parity, since at least that'll net you overkill damage at the expense of weapon durability, rather than just destroying your player advantages by ignoring supports and terrain bonuses.

And yet, swordmasters in this game still aren't very good. Lances are everywhere and without a silver forge or a lucky crit (or both), swordmasters in general have trouble ORKOing generals, dracos, and feral laguz, all of which are quite common towards the endgame. Lucia joins after Ike has promoted, so not only does she compare unfavourably to the other swordmasters, she has to compete with Ike and his Aether too. With the exception of chapter 25, every foot soldier has insane problems keeping up with paladins and fliers, and even then, chapter 25 is dominated by Marcia, Jill, Haar, and Tanith, who can just zip up to the top of the mountain no-sweat.

I'm giving Lucia a 2/10, but that's because no on in PoR is 1/10 material. Not even a certain green-haired archer.

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1.5/10

do i need to go into detail

i mean she sucks, she can at least fight for like a chapter and requires no work to be really really mediocre. but she still sucks.

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Good thing his attacks are massively stronger. Haar w/ brave axe has 31 attack. Lucia w/ brave sword has 23 attack. The weakest enemy in the chapter has 8 defense. Lucia will do 60 damage total, probably avoiding a counter. Haar will do 44, also probably avoiding a counter. There's a pretty big gap there, but both are 2HKOing and it only gets worse for Lucia from there. The highest def enemy is Rikard, whom Haar actually has a chance of reaching, though Jill/Marcia should be killing him. He has 20. Haar's doing a total of 22 damage. Lucia's doing a total of 12. Yeah, she's doing a lot better there. Hell, 12 defense enemies, which are pretty common only put their total damage output 6 points apart, and Haar's avoiding a counter there while Lucia isn't.

If Jill/Marcia are reaching him before Haar can, why does his combat against him matter? Especially since if you aren't playing Jill/Marcia, you're not likely looking for a LTC run in the first place.

So you're going to give Lucia a bunch of silver forges when all Haar needs is one speedwing to have good combat? Heck, he doesn't even need that, just get him overleveled with bexp and a speed band and he'll be fine, with 20.6 speed.

Haar can feel free to take a forge. If he does though he's going to miss out on doubling the faster enemies. Also, one speedwing? Why would I hold onto something like that for that long just so Haar can take it? Might as well hold on to a energy drop for Lucia if that's the case.

Wow, Lucia beats Haar by one or two attack with a weapon that has 8 more might. She's definitely not weaker :facepalm: . Anyway, with the brave axe, Haar is ORKOing all the same enemies as Lucia and avoiding counters on top of it. To fix her problem, Lucia needs constant silver forges, which takes some away from other people, or both energy drops (plus probably bexp and she'll still probably want forges), and then she's still swordlocked with 7 move and bad durability. Haar takes one speedwing or a bexp dump and then he has solid combat, very good durability, and 9 move flight.

I've had multiple shots at the forge by now. Besides, don't act like Haar's axe is free either. Other units who can use axes want it as well, especially since they can both avoid counters and manage to deal four attacks-worth of damage instead of Haar's puny two. So either a silver forge, of which I have multiple, for Lucia, or a one-of-a-kind weapon for Haar. Yea. Lucia's cost is much lower here. Haar's durability also doesn't matter too much as we have a full team by this point, most of which are solid units who already have good durability. I'm not saying it's a lead, but at this point I will have access to a bunch of units superior to either of them. Lucia is a low-cost unit who can have plausable offense with just a forged silver, Haar is a unit who needs a unique weapon and sucks otherwise as anything other than a flying bullseye.

Wow, Lucia beats Haar by one or two attack with a weapon that has 8 more might. She's definitely not weaker

Those are the stats. If Haar takes a weapon with enough MT to beat Lucia, Lucia beats him because he now can't double. If he takes a weapon that allows him to double, Lucia has more MT. Either way, Haar looses.

To fix her problem, Lucia needs constant silver forges,

The difference between a silver sword and a brave axe in terms of uses is that the brave axe gets a whopping 5 more uses. If Lucia needs 'constant silver forges' of which I can get one per chapter, than Haar's going to break his axe fast and become useless. Faster more likely since Lucia's crit rate will allow her to kill some enemies before the second attack while Haar's going to have to wait to hit the second time.

Haar takes one speedwing or a bexp dump and then he has solid combat, very good durability, and 9 move flight.

So you're willing to dump BEXP on Haar, a unit you have for only a few chapters, but not Rolf? Especially since Haar is still lack-luster after the dump. Heck, did you even factor in Evade, or just look at his average defenses and high HP and say 'OMG, SO DURABLE! MUST PLAY!'

Level 16 Haar: 24 Str, ~19 Spd

Level 16 Lucia: 17 Str, 13 Mag, ~26 Spd

Haar joined at the tail end of chapter 23 on the wrong side of the map at level 11 and basically won't fight until 24. How did he gain five levels in basically three chapters? If he is even one level lower, his AS is going to stop him from doubling some of those enemies (so it's a borderline on a lot of those).

Basically you're telling me that I should field an inferior unit who needs either a BEXP dump or a stat item to even fight at a plausible level because he has high movement and defense even though I have him for about 5 chapters? That seems utterly stupid and wasteful to me.

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If Jill/Marcia are reaching him before Haar can, why does his combat against him matter? Especially since if you aren't playing Jill/Marcia, you're not likely looking for a LTC run in the first place.

ok.

so what does this say about Lucia's combat then? It makes her combat even more irrelevant than Haar's.

Think before you speak kthnx.

Haar can feel free to take a forge. If he does though he's going to miss out on doubling the faster enemies. Also, one speedwing? Why would I hold onto something like that for that long just so Haar can take it? Might as well hold on to a energy drop for Lucia if that's the case.

Did you seriously just ignore the combat comparison aku chi just posted, where Haar actually ORKOs more often? Also I love how you conveniently ignore how Haar ORKOs more enemies even without Brave Weapons while Lucia can rarely ORKO even with a Silver forge and special weapons.

Also who seriously cares if Haar gets a speedwing? The only person who really wants a speedwing is Boyd and we get another one after the Chapter 2 speedwing. Haar taking one is a nonfactor. Not to mention that even if Lucia takes an Energy Drop, she still misses KOs as shown by aku chi's comparison.

I've had multiple shots at the forge by now. Besides, don't act like Haar's axe is free either. Other units who can use axes want it as well, especially since they can both avoid counters and manage to deal four attacks-worth of damage instead of Haar's puny two. So either a silver forge, of which I have multiple, for Lucia, or a one-of-a-kind weapon for Haar. Yea. Lucia's cost is much lower here. Haar's durability also doesn't matter too much as we have a full team by this point, most of which are solid units who already have good durability. I'm not saying it's a lead, but at this point I will have access to a bunch of units superior to either of them. Lucia is a low-cost unit who can have plausable offense with just a forged silver, Haar is a unit who needs a unique weapon and sucks otherwise as anything other than a flying bullseye.

Once again, aku chi proved that Haar can use other weapons besides Brave weapons to rock and roll enemies, including Steel Axe forges. Lucia meanwhile needs a Silver Forge just to be Haar's inferior in offense.

Also if apparently everyone has such good durability that Haar's doesn't matter, than Lucia must really suck balls because her durability is completely terrible (lol 36 HP/10 defense at base).

The difference between a silver sword and a brave axe in terms of uses is that the brave axe gets a whopping 5 more uses. If Lucia needs 'constant silver forges' of which I can get one per chapter, than Haar's going to break his axe fast and become useless. Faster more likely since Lucia's crit rate will allow her to kill some enemies before the second attack while Haar's going to have to wait to hit the second time.

Also avoids taking counters against enemies he may find unpleasant like sages, which gives it defensive applications as well, and again, he can use weapons other than Brave weapons to do well in combat.

So you're willing to dump BEXP on Haar, a unit you have for only a few chapters, but not Rolf? Especially since Haar is still lack-luster after the dump. Heck, did you even factor in Evade, or just look at his average defenses and high HP and say 'OMG, SO DURABLE! MUST PLAY!'

Look mister room temperature IQ

Nobody cares about a BEXP dump because not only would you have a lot left but few people really care about getting some at this stage of the game.

Also who cares about evade when Haar's built like a brick shithouse.

Haar joined at the tail end of chapter 23 on the wrong side of the map at level 11 and basically won't fight until 24. How did he gain five levels in basically three chapters? If he is even one level lower, his AS is going to stop him from doubling some of those enemies (so it's a borderline on a lot of those).

BEXP.

Basically you're telling me that I should field an inferior unit who needs either a BEXP dump or a stat item to even fight at a plausible level because he has high movement and defense even though I have him for about 5 chapters? That seems utterly stupid and wasteful to me.

I didn't see you complain about Lucia getting 4 levels in the same timeframe as Haar despite having worse movement, durability, and combat than him. It seems you're only against giving BEXP to latejoining units when its convenient to your argument. In addition, nobody cares that Haar takes a speedwing (and maybe an Arms Scroll to get to silvers faster) because nobody cares about the speedwing. If more units actually gave a shit about the wing, then you might be onto something but unfortunately that is not the case.

Nobody is saying Haar is an amazing unit or anything, he's flawed. But he's better than idiots like Lucia.

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If Jill/Marcia are reaching him before Haar can, why does his combat against him matter? Especially since if you aren't playing Jill/Marcia, you're not likely looking for a LTC run in the first place.

:facepalm: To give a perspective of how they were doing against high and low defense enemies. Try to keep up.

Haar can feel free to take a forge. If he does though he's going to miss out on doubling the faster enemies. Also, one speedwing? Why would I hold onto something like that for that long just so Haar can take it? Might as well hold on to a energy drop for Lucia if that's the case.

But he'll still be able to double all the slow to mid speed enemies, and he'll do a lot more damage to them than Lucia. Also, Haar needs one speedwings to become another solid flying unit, which is always nice. You get one in chapter 13. At that point, most of your mains will either have good enough speed or are Mak/Astrid who have access to bexp and the KW to fix any speed problems. So why not save it for Haar? And Lucia is going to need a lot more than one energy drop to fix her issues. Try both energy rings, a seraph robe, and a dracoshield, probably two.

I've had multiple shots at the forge by now. Besides, don't act like Haar's axe is free either. Other units who can use axes want it as well, especially since they can both avoid counters and manage to deal four attacks-worth of damage instead of Haar's puny two. So either a silver forge, of which I have multiple, for Lucia, or a one-of-a-kind weapon for Haar. Yea. Lucia's cost is much lower here. Haar's durability also doesn't matter too much as we have a full team by this point, most of which are solid units who already have good durability. I'm not saying it's a lead, but at this point I will have access to a bunch of units superior to either of them. Lucia is a low-cost unit who can have plausable offense with just a forged silver, Haar is a unit who needs a unique weapon and sucks otherwise as anything other than a flying bullseye.

First off, name one unit who benefits more from brave weapons than Haar. I'm willing to bet you can't legitimately do it. This isn't true for silver forges. A shitton of people, like Titania, benefit more from them than Lucia. Second, if we have a full team already, why is Lucia's mediocre, at best, offense better than Haar's similar, if not superior offense, massive durability lead, and move? As for her offense, she constantly needs silver forges. Haar can get out of needing brave weapons with a speedwings, which I've already covered, and some bexp.

Those are the stats. If Haar takes a weapon with enough MT to beat Lucia, Lucia beats him because he now can't double. If he takes a weapon that allows him to double, Lucia has more MT. Either way, Haar looses.

But he can against plenty of enemies, which aku chi so nicely covered. Then there's the fact that he'll actually get to the enemies.

The difference between a silver sword and a brave axe in terms of uses is that the brave axe gets a whopping 5 more uses. If Lucia needs 'constant silver forges' of which I can get one per chapter, than Haar's going to break his axe fast and become useless. Faster more likely since Lucia's crit rate will allow her to kill some enemies before the second attack while Haar's going to have to wait to hit the second time.

Again, name the units who benefit with a brave weapon than Haar. Between the lance and axe he's got 60 uses, which will last a while. Giving Lucia two forged silvers gives her 50, which will also last a while, uses and takes forges away from other people who benefit from them more.

So you're willing to dump BEXP on Haar, a unit you have for only a few chapters, but not Rolf? Especially since Haar is still lack-luster after the dump. Heck, did you even factor in Evade, or just look at his average defenses and high HP and say 'OMG, SO DURABLE! MUST PLAY!'

Astrid without EP and with worse move vs a second Jill essentially. Gee, which should I pick? Titania, one of the dodgier paladins, ignoring supports, has 67 avoid at 20. Haar with a speed band has 55, real big difference, especially when he's got really good HP and defense. Lucia has 77ish avoid at max level. That's a good bit higher, but then there's the fact that Haar has 11 more defense and health. And he's not getting doubled so don't try bringing that up.

Haar joined at the tail end of chapter 23 on the wrong side of the map at level 11 and basically won't fight until 24. How did he gain five levels in basically three chapters? If he is even one level lower, his AS is going to stop him from doubling some of those enemies (so it's a borderline on a lot of those).

He can fly on a map that has an absurd amount of obstacles. Then there's the fact that a bunch of reinforcements spawn around the time he's getting recruited. It is probably a bit high, but he's still got a pretty good chance at getting some decent exp.

EDIT: derp, forgot about bexp.

Basically you're telling me that I should field an inferior unit who needs either a BEXP dump or a stat item to even fight at a plausible level because he has high movement and defense even though I have him for about 5 chapters? That seems utterly stupid and wasteful to me.

Basically you're telling me that I should field an inferior unit who needs constant silver forges, which get expensive, a bexp dump, and has footie move and terrible, terrible durability just because she does mildy better than someone else at combat against a few fast enemies even though I only have her for even fewer chapters? That seems utterly stupid and wasteful to me.

Edited by bottlegnomes
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Haar joined at the tail end of chapter 23 on the wrong side of the map at level 11 and basically won't fight until 24. How did he gain five levels in basically three chapters?

What are you talking about? There are a bunch of reinforcements that spawn in the east of C23 with Haar. He can easily nab a level here in even the fastest of playthroughs. Haar also has the durability (with the Full Guard) to head to the boss area in C24 for a bunch more Cexp. Again, an easy level. C25 is Haar's chapter. Unlike Lucia, he can both reach and survive at the top of the cliff. Haar can gain up to two levels here, depending on our strategy. C26 is standard fare. Really, Haar might just reach level 16 without an ounce of Bexp by C27. But so what if he does need <500 Bexp? We get that much in C26 alone!

Really, Lucia is the one who will struggle to reach level 16 by C17 (which she needs to secure some 2HKOs and double the Swordmasters), because her durability and movement make it unlikely that she will engage in combat as often as Haar.

If he is even one level lower, his AS is going to stop him from doubling some of those enemies (so it's a borderline on a lot of those).

Bullshit. Why don't you look at the actual enemy stats. There are a whopping 3/50 enemies that 19 AS doubles that 18 AS does not.

Basically you're telling me that I should field an inferior unit who needs either a BEXP dump or a stat item to even fight at a plausible level because he has high movement and defense even though I have him for about 5 chapters? That seems utterly stupid and wasteful to me.

No. I'm telling you that Lucia doesn't even win offense against Haar. Haar beats Lucia's offense and crushes her durability and mobility. Haar also has utility irrespective of his combat by virtue of being the most durable unit with the best movement type (only Jill is close). Haar can execute rescue-drops in hot areas in C25 and C28. You can use Lucia if you like. But know that Haar is just plain better, no matter how you look at it.

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