So What Do You Think of This SSB4 Roster?

[Randoman]

First off, let's keep this thread as civil and polite as possible, especially since I know that playable Smash characters often becomes a heated topic on forums. Also, to mods reading this, I really want this to not be moved to FFtF, since I want others' thoughts, opinions, and critiques on character choices without constant jokes, rudeness, and flaming.

So basically, the sig image I've been using for May 2015 is actually a fan-made SSB4 roster that I made:

(posting the image for it here for when my sig changes)

I basically made it constraining myself with the same technical constraints that Sakurai had (eg: having 6 Melee clones with Daisy from Peach, Falco from Fox, Dr. Stewart from Captain Falcon, Impa from a Ganondorf with an original moveset, , Leif from Marth, and Lip from Zelda), but with using an alternate SSB64 roster as a base and going from there (eg: Eevee is put in SSB64 instead of Jigglypuff). If you're wondering why this roster has 50 characters when the real SSB4 roster has 49 (51 if all Mii fighter types are included), that's because for this roster I made Miis only have one type instead of 3 (Swordfighter, Brawler, and Gunner) and converted the 2 other types into 2 new characters. I didn't show the Mii in the above roster, by the way.

So using the same constraints that Sakurai had, I tried to form a Smash roster that's fair, without any doubles of character personas (eg: Toon Link and Dark Pit), making sure all major, iconic Nintendo characters are in (like Toad and Tom Nook, even if I can't think of a feasible moveset for the latter), and trying to give series a good number of reps in regards to the series importance and prominence to Nintendo (eg: giving F-Zero two reps since a six game series is significant enough, but keeping Kid Icarus at one rep since it only had three games).

So what do you guys think of the roster overall, in terms of fairness and representing Nintendo well? If you're wondering about any of my choices or exclusions, I'd be more than happy to explain them, so long as you're civil about it (Eg: posting "so why is Leif in but not Roy or Robin?" and not "No Robin or Palutena? You suck!!")

Also, I am well aware about accepting the "real SSB4 roster" and being happy with it. I know I enjoy playing as Robin, Greninja, and Pac-Man quite a lot despite them not even being on my roster. Though I still thought it'd be fun to make my own roster and see what others think of it.

[Sentacotus]

Actually pretty damn good. I can see that you were right about most of the newcomers. I like the addition of Isaac in there and hope he will coming in as a future character. I kinda disagree with Leif and prefer the inclusion of Robin just because he is a magic user and helps diversify the cast and introduce a different fighting style aside from another sword fighter. I would have included Black Shadow over Dr. Stewart since he is the villain of the series and it would be interesting to see the moveset Nintendo would come up with.

Also question who is the guy right next to Rob?

[Florete]

I like the addition of Gardevoir and Lip. Not so much the addition of Tingle or the lack of Wolf and Dixie Kong (and 4 reps for DK is definitely not too much). Not really sure about the likes of Eevee over Charizard or Mewtwo. Also not feeling three FE mono-sword users.

[Ema Skye]

Curious about why you lack third party characters.

Also I disagree with your Pokemon selection. Gardevoir and Zoroark are literal nobodies compared to the likes of Mewtwo and Charizard.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Just bring back Wolf, Snake and Ice-Climbers and I'd be happy.

(SSBB roster still the best for me)

Everyone else I don't give a shit.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Miss Xiaomu

[euklyd]

to be fair Lucario and Jiggs are kind of nobodies as well

just not quite as nobody

Some of these characters I don't even recognize (which to be fair would've been the case for the "real" SSB# rosters as well); could you elaborate on who some of them are, and why you chose them?

[Refa]

You tried way too hard to fit some arbitrary criteria when the only criteria should be "Who are cool Nintendo characters who would be hella fun to play in Super Smash Bros.?".

Edited May 29, 2015 by Refa

[euklyd]

neku is an iconic nintendo character right

he'd be hella fun to play as in Super Smash Brothers Anything™

[Knight]

Apart from a lack of third-parties and your Pokemon choices (don't really see Zoroark or Eevee is interesting characters, but if you could tell me how you think they'd play, then by maybe I'd be convinced.) I say it looks pretty good. There's nothing else I really object to.

[Tsunami922]

There are odd choices here and there, but it looks pretty decent.

I'd rate it No Palutena/10.

[euklyd]

genuinely curious: what's so special about dillon(? I think I remember him from streetpass puzzle swap stuff now)?

and if we are going by

and trying to give series a good number of reps in regards to the series importance and prominence to Nintendo (eg: giving F-Zero two reps since a six game series is significant enough, but keeping Kid Icarus at one rep since it only had three games).

then it really makes very little sense to exclude Sonic or Mega Man - or even a Belmont, for that matter.

They've probably got more games (iconic games, even!) on Nintendo consoles than most characters in Smash Bros.

pedit: jesus christ there have been 21 different castlevania games released on nintendo consoles - I had been guessing like a dozen

should there be like 3 belmonts in smash + alucard or what :v

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

I really like it except for Daisy and Toad, but that's just me

other than that, needs more xenoblade

[kingddd]

to be fair Lucario and Jiggs are kind of nobodies as well

just not quite as nobody

Some of these characters I don't even recognize (which to be fair would've been the case for the "real" SSB# rosters as well); could you elaborate on who some of them are, and why you chose them?

From what I know from top to bottom, left to right.

Dr. Steward from F-Zero

Ice Climbers from Ice Climbers

Takamaru from Nazo no Murasame-jō (Currently an assist trophy)

Lip from panel de pon (Japanese tetris attack or puzzle league)

Dillon from Dillon's Rolling Western (Currently an assist trophy)

Dr. Steward has been in the main F-Zero series since the beginning of the game and has been a main supporting character in the F-Zero anime. He's not exactly popular and honestly I don't see much from him since he's an actual doctor and not really a fighter. But he is skilled at what he did. During the great F-Zero accident, he was the main surgeon during that time. His father was naturally a racer but he urged steward not follow in his footsteps since it was so dangerous. But after his father's death he took this opportunity to become a f-zero pilot anyway.

Takamaru is actually considered a Famicom classic in Japan and it was only released in Japan. It's basically a fastpaced arcade style Zelda game and it is challenging and difficult like many other old games at the time. His games have been referenced pretty frequently and even made an appearance as a minigame in Nintendoland with the Ninja minigame.

Lip from panel de pon is a Japanese character that was used as the main mascot for Puzzle League in Japan. When they brought it over to americas, they replaced her with Yoshi and renamed it Tetris Attack for marketing purposes. However Lip is actually quite popular in the Japanese Nintendo fan community. You can still find fanart of her being drawn frequently in pixiv.

Dillon is from an eShop exclusive game made by Nintendo. It's a tower of defense style of game. He's essentially a sheriff ranger and you have to gather resources and construct weapon towers to create defense to protect from a bunch of grocks from invading the town. At the same time there is a bit of combat you engage. You basically roll around the landscapes to find those resources and fight enemies with the touchscreen.

Edited May 29, 2015 by kingddd

[Anacybele]

You already showed me this, Rando, so you already know my stance. But despite Toad in place of Bowser Jr. and a lack of Toon Link, it's a very nice roster! :)

I would've liked Pokemon to get one rep from each gen, but there aren't really any notable Pokemon from gens 2 or 3, so... Pikachu, Meowth, Keldeo, Lucario, and Sylveon would've been my picks there. Meowth would replace Jigglypuff.

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

You already showed me this, Rando, so you already know my stance. But despite Toad in place of Bowser Jr. and a lack of Toon Link, it's a very nice roster! :)

I would've liked Pokemon to get one rep from each gen, but there aren't really any notable Pokemon from gens 2 or 3, so... Pikachu, Meowth, Keldeo, Lucario, and Sylveon would've been my picks there. Meowth would replace Jigglypuff.

dude

That's really opinionated; there are quite a lot of well-liked pokemon from both of those generations

[Randoman]

I guess instead of responding to individual posts about character choices, I'll respond to each point/question regarding my picks that gets brought up. Keep in mind, this is all my opinion, and I'll admit some of them even I think may be a bit unreasonable/weird like Gardevoir and Dr. Stewart.

@ Leif: I picked him due to being the 3rd most prominent (not counting Smash cameos, FE13 DLC, Trial Maps, and such) FE lord after Marth and Ike. I mean, being a lord in one FE game and being playable (though not an FE lord) does make Leif significantly more important to FE overall more than one time lords like Alm and Micaiah. Plus, with Leif's Master Knight promotion in FE4, Leif technically has fire, thunder, wind, and light magic at his disposal as well as lances, axes, and bows. Yeah, I know that Leif technically needs to be promoted and on a horse for that, but if Ranger Ike can wield Ragnell in Brawl or Ness using mostly PSI attacks that Paula used and not Ness himself with few people questioning it, I think Prince/Lord Leif using his promotion only weapons isn't too much of a stretch.

@ Dr. Stewart: Yeah, I'll admit he's a somewhat weird choice for an F-Zero rep. But keep in mind he's supposed to be a clone of Captain Falcon (since I stuck with the restraints Sakurai had for my roster pics to see what kind of roster I could make with the same time and tech constraints Sakurai had), and Samurai Goroh and Pico already had established fighting styles even in the SNES era from the comics (katana wielder and gunner, respectively). I suppose Black Shadow would've been a good pick for a Captain Falcon clone, but I felt that Dr. Stewart being playable in 5 of the 6 F-Zero games and the only one besides Captain Falcon to be referenced in Maximum Velocity (as the designer of the Silver Thunder, a playable vehicle) put him above Black Shadow since he's referenced/playable in every F-Zero game while Black Shadow misses out on two of them. Though I will admit, Black Shadow is technically more popular and promoted, so I guess having him as a Captain Falcon clone instead of Dr. Stewart wouldn't be weird.

@ Tingle: Tingle.. yeah... I'll admit he's another weird choice, but among reoccurring Zelda characters, I couldn't really think of anyone else. Tingle does show up quite frequently in the Zelda series (even more than Impa and I think just as much as gerudo/humanoid Ganondorf), and with the fact that he's been a lead character in 2-3 games, I feel like that alone would make him a "proper" rep for the Zelda series since he's that prominent and reoccurring.

@ Pokemon choices: I see what you mean by weird Pokemon choices. I actually avoided using elemental starters and legendaries as playables, since I really feel that for true fairness, it's either all or nothing in terms of playable characters. Choosing one from a grass, fire, or water starter or from any of the 6 generations is bound to cause biasedness complaints, so I felt that not having any playable starters from those elements is the fairest way to go about it. Same for legendaries, Even if elemental starters and legendaries are some of the most popular Pokemon, it gets really messy picking a few among them and shafting the rest as non-playables. I mean, even if Charizard and Mewtwo are some of the most popular Pokemon, there's plenty that complain about fire starter and 1st gen biasedness, so I stuck with picking popular Pokemon that weren't elemental starters or legendaries to avoid biasedness and generation/elemental starter favouritism complaints. Though I'm guessing a lot of you will disagree with my "show fairness to all elemental starters and legendaries by including none of them" attitude.

Eevee I picked since I felt he was a much more suitable replacement for Jigglypuff as a secondary Pokemon rep in SSB64, since Eevee is iconic, popular, and constantly relevant in nearly every Pokemon generation, due to getting new evolutions often. I mean, I doubt you'd see people arguing "Eevee isn't relevant anymore, he should be cut" if Eevee was put into SSB64 instead of Jigglypuff. For Eevee's moveset, I was thinking of having it pull different elemental powers from each of its evolutions it can potentially turn into (similar to Red's Eevee in the manga), so it could have a shocking barrier for its down special (from Jolteon), psychic powered throws (from Espeon), darkness/vanishing based dodge animations (from Umbreon), a water/ice powered tackle for its up special (from Vaporean/Glaceon), and so on.

Zoroark was essentially the 5th Gen equivalent of Lucario (especially with him getting his own movie, which very few non-legendaries get the honour of having). With him being heavily promoted for the 5th gen, getting his own movie, and being a very special event Pokemon in B/W1 then its pre-evolution being a very special gift Pokemon in B/W2, I felt he warranted a playable spot. As for Zoroark's moveset, his fighting style would be very feral and claw based. I also thought it'd be really interesting to have Zoroark have his Illusion ability play a part for one of his special moves, where he'd transform into a character in the battle and have their exact movement style (midair jumps, ground and air speed, and such), but after being attacked (even if Zoroark is shielding) he'll revert to normal form. I also thought he should have a special attack while in Illusion mode by pressing any attack button where he'd lose the Illusion and do a powerful (but laggy) attack.

Admittingly, I would've put in a 6th Gen Pokemon, but there wasn't any particular Lucario/Zoroark equivalents for 6th gen, and I didn't want to use starters or legendaries. Plus, with the 2nd/6th generation games using a lot from the previous generations (in terms of Pokemon from previous generations being used heavily, like how GSC used Pidgey and Rattata who were 1st gen and XY used plenty of 1st gen legendaries) and those two gens introduced the least amount of new Pokemon, I felt they should be the generations to skip playable reps, if anything.

Gardevoir, I'll admit was a weird choice, but I honestly couldn't think of any playable 3rd gen reps besides Plusle and Minun as an Ice Climber type duo (which I was somewhat reluctant to do due to being similar to Pikachu looks-wise). And of the 3rd gen Pokemon, Gardevoir is quite popular and liked and picking her wouldn't show favouritism between elemental starters or legendaries.

@ lack of 3rd parties: In general, it gets really messy dealing with guest characters and being fair to all 3rd party companies, IPs, and fans of 3rd parties. Part of the reason why I excluded them completely is because I felt the best way to be fair to all 3rd parties was to not include any of them (similar to my "no elemental starters or legendaries" view). I mean, even to this day you still have plenty of people thinking so many other 3rd parties like Bomberman and Rayman should've been in Brawl over Snake. Also, Smash (as well as any company based spinoff) is a really good way to promote and bring to the spotlight the more obscure and lesser known characters/series from their respective company, and I feel like bringing in guests really detracts from that. I mean, if Sakurai stuck in 3rd parties over Marth and Pit in Melee and Brawl, respectively, Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus likely wouldn't have had the high amount of popularity and the sequel(s) that it had today. Having some of the lesser known Nintendo series/characters get the same attention Marth and Fire Emblem, for example, got from Smash would really help boost those series' popularity and sales. I mean, I'm sure Golden Sun and Starfy fans would really appreciate their series getting more games and more popularity, especially if it keeps their series alive and healthy.

That's just how I feel about 3rd parties/guests, and I hope you don't hold it against me/my roster too much. I mean, even company spinoff series like Marvel vs. Capcom don't have any guests yet they're still critically acclaimed.

@ Toad and : In general, I really feel like Toad not being playable in Smash is just plain wrong at this point. Toad is literally among the 6 most important, oldest, and iconic Mario characters, he's been the lead in the NES and SNES Wario's Woods (which are actually quite different from each other, especially with the exclusive modes and the training mode and story scenes being different), he along with the rest of the main Mario 6 have been playable in literally every Mario Kart game (which, despite being a spinoff, is still the most iconic, popular, and perhaps the most important Mario spinoff), and even if he hasn't had the same prominence as the other 5 from the Mario main six, he's still really important overall to Mario history and contributed to it for over a decade longer than characters like Waluigi, Rosalina, and Bowser Jr.

@ Daisy: Daisy, yeah, I'll admit, I was having a hard time coming up with feasible playable Melee clones that didn't represent an existing persona already in the roster. I'll admit, I'd be okay with expending her for someone else, though the problem is I don't even know who'd make a good replacement clone for her without using an already existing persona. I did consider Lucas, but I really felt like a 3 game series that's rather obscure didn't really warrant 2 playable characters (same reason why I didn't include Palutena).

...whew, that was quite a lot to type up. I guess I'll respond to the remaining points/questions brought up later. On a side note, kingddd is right about all those characters Euklyd was asking about and described them really well.

[euklyd]

Ah, okay; thanks for the explanation, DDD & Rando.

dude

That's really opinionated; there are quite a lot of well-liked pokemon from both of those generations

so I herd u liek mudkips

really tho I'm not sure which Pokemon besides Pikachu / Mewtwo / maybe Charizard are really iconic...

e: was ninja'd, added context

Edited May 29, 2015 by Euklyd

[Anacybele]

I said notable, not popular/well-liked. There's a difference.

[Ema Skye]

Did you ever consider Meowth over Eevee? I get that Eevee has the whole Eeveelution fanbase going, but the anime (I know some don't consider it relevant to Smash, but it's the only reason Jigglypuff managed to get in so I personally think it's valid) was at its peak in the late 90s and Meowth was just as relevant there as Pikachu.

Plus I'm having a hard time visualizing Eevee fight considering it lacks any sort of appendage and it's a canon quadruped.

[SuperCuccoSaiyan]

It looks fairly decent. There are some neat and interesting choices in there (such as Dillon and Starfy, which are totally two characters that I'd never expect). Isaac is one character that I would have loved to play, and I have similar feelings as Shulk regarding him.

There are some characters, however, that I don't see the point in being there as well. Daisy and Toad, for one. I personally feel like the two would be a waste of space, if being somewhat direct. Toad doesn't seem to have any specific ways to fight, and Daisy would be a simple "clone" of Peach so to speak. Obviously, the games already have clones to begin with, but even then they sometimes manage to be original in their own rights (Lucas and Luigi especially).

Impa is quite intriguing. While I wouldn't say that I can picture her in Smash, she's definitely the kind of character that could bring us a sweet surprise. After seeing her fight in Hyrule Warriors, there's some worth in actually bringing her in. As for Tingle... Erm... I simply can't. At all.

After that comes the main burning topic of the usual pointless wars; Ridley. He's... odd. Much like King K. Rool, Ridley is a character that could fit in a fighter. Just not Smash. The mechanics, the dodges, the map issues... Everything would take a tremendous effort to change just to make him playable in any way. He'd be a lizard like Charizard, without wings, who would claw his opponents and breath fire. Sounds familiar, right? He's no fitted for Smash.

King K. Rool is more reasonable, although I can't think of any moves for him yet. It would be a blast to try him out, in any case!

Eevee, Gardevoir and Zoroak are strange choices too. As some fellows mentioned above, they're not "main mascots" of the Pokémon franchise, unlike Pikachu or Mewtwo. Lucario, on the other hand, gained a massive boost of support when Diamond/Pearl first came out. He was the sweet spot for the majority of the players back then, which explains why Nintendo put him in Brawl.

Tom Nook is basically the same as Tingle. No fighting capabilities whatsoever.

Other than that, though, it is a very interesting list.

[Zera]

-1 for Tingle (Literally any other Zelda character would be better)

-1 for no Sin & Punishment characters

-1 for Dr. Stewwart (He's a medic, not a fighter)

+1 for Ridley

8/10

[NinjaMonkey]

Tom Nook is basically the same as Tingle. No fighting capabilities whatsoever.

Tingle fights in Hyrule Warriors, though...

-1 for Dr. Stewwart (He's a medic, not a fighter)

Dr. Mario says hi!

Edited May 30, 2015 by NinjaMonkey

[Anacybele]

Villager says hi too. Also not a fighter.

Also, Eevee being a quadruped is fine. Four legs didn't stop Ivysaur from being a part of Pokemon Trainer's arsenal. I also forgot to mention that I hate Tingle with a passion, so I don't like the idea of him being playable.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Anacybele

[Comet]

i don't like the idea of daisy since she is nearly identical to peach visually, even more so than mario and luigi have ever been, which is a bit ridiculous. if she would just get cloned like dr mario then she would be fine.

i don't know much about k.rool but he probably has potential to be a unique fighter so he's good

i know about nothign about zelda but i personally dislike the inclusion of tingle based on what others have said. i'm not sure if you have sheik cut or not, but i think she should be in due to already being in other smash games.

as bad as i feel about saying this, i don't think it would work well to incorporate ridley into smash.

roy > leif for being a vet that at least some people would know.

those are...questionable pokemon choices. gardevoir, eevee, and zoroark are not exactly the most popular pokemon. greninja, charizard, and mewtwo still exist. for eevee specifically, pichu (cue minor bias) would probably be better due to being a vet as well as having a fanbase that exists but nobody really cares about (i doubt the whole fanbase even cares about eevee himself rather than his evolutions anyway). jigglypuff also has super veteran status so i'd put her in.

i don't think anybody will even care about the other f zero guy that much given that captain falcon already exists, and f zero is almost a dead franchise.

i'd put wolf in just for being a veteran and star fox is still somewhat alive.

blow up the guy under DHD to make room for the real hammer users.

i like robin's use of tomes and representation of the newer age of fire emblem.

[Anacybele]

I have to disagree. Daisy and Peach don't look as similar as Mario and Luigi do. Luigi is basically a taller, thinner Mario with a different mustache and his outfit colored green instead of red. Daisy has different patterns and colors on her dress and accessories, a completely different hairstyle and hair color, and her face is a lot different as well.

Hell, it wouldn't make sense for the princesses to look as similar or more similar, because Mario and Luigi are twin brothers and can reasonably look quite a bit alike.

Also, Daisy with a parasol or Toad would feel kind of weird. Even so though, I would be fine with her as an alternate skin for Peach instead of just a palette swap.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Anacybele