Should Final Bosses be Monsters or Humans?

[Jotari]

So by my count in Fire Emblem we've had eight final bosses who are monsters (two of which being Medeus) and six who are human. Which do you generally prefer as an enemy to fight at the end of the game? Something more personal that feels satisfying to put an end to, or something more big and monstrous that feels like an achievement to take down? This is probably something most people don't feel all too strongly about so I haven't included any neutral options to in the polls to encourage people to pick a side. But feel free to talk about how often and in what way each type should be portrayed, or the value of more ambiguous cases (like Grima whom you target as a human but attacks as a monster).

I know most final bosses are dragons but I'm using monster as a term to include Fomortiis and Doma (though doma could easily be a dragon). And human I'm generally meaning human shape (so Ashera is included in this category) so since pretty much every human aside from Veld is drawing power from some great energy source and aren't fully human.

[Magical Glace]

I'd say human. Aside from Idoun, the monsters generally weren't very impactful in comparison, especially for FE7. So I think it would be nicer if say, FE7 ended with Nergal, or FE13 with Gangrel (and expanding that part of the game appropriately), with necessary adjustments to stats. I feel like the emotional weight of the battles is more important than the badassness of them.

[NekoKnight]

Let's put it this way, the primary antagonists should be human (human based conflicts are more interesting than *insert omnicidal dragon threat*) but the final boss can be whatever the plot calls for. For example, while the Fire Dragon is technically the last boss of FE7, Nergal is the one who summoned it so it's really just an extension of Nergal's actions. Nergal is still the one who drives the plot up to almost the very end of the game.

Also, if it can't be believed that a human would be strong as a big monster, than make the final level really challenging and the last boss himself a relatively softer target when compared to the difficulty of the level.

Edited August 24, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Acacia Sgt]

When it comes to the final bosses themselves, I don't particularly mind either way. Not much, anyway.

I actually find more interest on what the enemies of the final map(s) are. I think that has more of an impact to me than what the final boss is.

Or perhaps to say, the combination of both factors is what I look more into.

[Reality]

I think I prefer monsters just because it's a good way to kick off a video game, since there strength ensures that the final battle can be cinematic and still provide uphill odds even though in most cases you are already marching into the enemy capital and have proven your army to be unstoppable. It might not be as fitting in a comic or anime, but I think that the gameplay personality and the sense of power that every player will be getting toward the end of an FE game lends itself more to monsters than humans.

[blah the Prussian]

I think that, firstly, the final boss should be the main antagonist through most of the game. Beating the guy that was built up all this time only to have the final boss be a generic evil God is totally lame. That said, a Monster is acceptable provided it's because of a One Winged Angel transformation.

[sirmola]

Montsters as a ormm on "blarg. Here is a dragon to up the stakes" Are bad, but monsters like idoun, which have a key and interesting plce in the plot, are fine. Human bosses tend to have a key place in the plot, but "blarg. Here is a more powerful dude to up the stakes" is just is bad as when a monster is used.

[Espinosa]

They should be human and they need to exclaim "this divine lightning shall pierce the skies" when attacking you.

[Jotari]

Montsters as a ormm on "blarg. Here is a dragon to up the stakes" Are bad, but monsters like idoun, which have a key and interesting plce in the plot, are fine. Human bosses tend to have a key place in the plot, but "blarg. Here is a more powerful dude to up the stakes" is just is bad as when a monster is used.

The only time where they through a monster at you for the sake of having one that I can recall is FE7. Maybe you could count Medeus since Gharnef is essentially the main instigator of all the trouble in Marth's games but Medeus is still a full part of the world that is hyped right from the intro.

[spoiler=Fates]

Sure there was no foreshadowing at all that Garon was going to turn dragon when you beat him in Birthright but as he himself points out it makes 100% sense within the lore so it startlingly does not come out of nowhere. And actually adds a little plotwise to Revelations.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Either one, honestly. Depends on what the story, setting, etc. all are.

[Gradivus.]

The only time where they through a monster at you for the sake of having one that I can recall is FE7. Maybe you could count Medeus since Gharnef is essentially the main instigator of all the trouble in Marth's games but Medeus is still a full part of the world that is hyped right from the intro.

[spoiler=Fates]

Sure there was no foreshadowing at all that Garon was going to turn dragon when you beat him in Birthright but as he himself points out it makes 100% sense within the lore so it startlingly does not come out of nowhere. And actually adds a little plotwise to Revelations.

Yeah, I don't think Medeus counts, he had his own motivations and his own goal of defeating humanity and Gharnef just took advantage of it.

Also, if it can't be believed that a human would be strong as a big monster, than make the final level really challenging and the last boss himself a relatively softer target when compared to the difficulty of the level.

This, Conquest Endgame did that pretty well in my opinion. I think Endgame chapters should be challenging regardless though, some bosses (mainly monsters) suffer from being in very easy chapters and thus feeling anticlimactic, e.g. Generic Fire Dragon, Fomortiis and to an extent Blight Garon (though at least he requires some teamwork and positioning prostrats because has some actual mooks around him unlike FE7/8's final bosses who were literally the only enemies to be fought). Idoun too, although at least chapter 24 is so long and has so many dragons that it feels like a tough battle is going on.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Gradivus.

[vanguard333]

Personally, I tend to prefer humans, if only because they tend to be better written villains (with a few exceptions... then again, those exceptions were possessed by monsters...)

The first monster villain was Medeus, the shadow dragon. He is clearly evil and trying to take over the world and seems rather one-dimensional in FE1 and Shadow Dragon (but then again, almost everything seemed one-dimensional in those games, so...). But then in the sequel you find out that he was the only Earth Dragon that decided to become a Manakete and not go nuts, and at first he was on Naga's side. But then he saw how much humanity treated his fellow Manaketes very poorly and formed the Dohlr Empire, which was originally a haven for Manaketes, but then became a means of revenge against humanity. That, in my opinion, is a potentially good monster villain. He's clearly evil, but he has a good backstory and clear motivation. Sadly, pretty much every monster villain after that has been, "Muahaha, I will destroy the world!" Don't get me wrong, not all villains need a backstory to be good (Ganondorf is a good non-FE example of this), but every post-Gharnef monster villain has just been a rehash of the one-dimensional monster formula.

The human final bosses, on the other hand, tend to be better written. Ashera was somewhat interesting and at least a departure from the mindless monsters. Ashnard was evil; no question. But he was also an ideologist; in this case, a radical social Darwinist who believed in deciding rulers by strength, not blood. Not only did this improve his character, but the ideology he was enforcing was relevant and intertwined with the rest of the story of Path of Radiance very well.

Done right, both are interesting, but humans are done right more often.

[Mangs]

I think it has everything to do with how the final boss is “booked”, in lack of a better term, and human characters just happen to be easier to develop since they are more relateable, but don’t tend to feel as “epic” as a big bad monster or god.

Personally, this was my reaction to the final bosses we have in Fire Emblem.

Medeus (monster): I thought Medeus was very boring in both his forms. He doesn’t have much dialogue at all, and we hardly get to know his motives. He isn’t a bad villain, but he isn’t particularly good either. Fighting him felt slightly more epic in his shadow dragon form, but it wasn’t anything spectacular on my part.

Duma (god): I haven't fought Duma personally, just watched a LP. He is pretty bad as far as a villain goes. While he has an interesting design, he was a big let down.

Yurius (human): While he is possessed by a god, I consider him a human as he doesn't have any monster form (though I guess this can be debated). I don't think Yurius himself is super amazing compared to the rest of the cast in Fe4, Alvis & Manfroy are much more impactful villains, but he was still a very decent final boss to me.

Berdo (human): A complete joke. Not worthy of being the final boss of an otherwise fantastic game.

Idoun (monster): I thought Zephiel was a much cooler. Her fight didn’t feel special at all, she had zero dialogue until the fight itself.

Nergal (human): I kinda count Nergal as the final boss of Fe7, despite the dragon being the last fight. I thought Nergal was one of the most impactful villains, and his fight was one of the more epic ones I’ve experienced in Fire Emblem as a whole. The dragon (which I kinda count as the second phase of the fight) was a very intimidating finale.

Demon King (monster): I thought the Demon King was a complete joke.

Ashnard (human): Definitely one of Fire Emblem’s stronger villains. Again, he isn’t shown much, but the buildup to him is very intense, and the final fight is amazing, particularly on hard mode.

Ashera (god): Fighting a goddess never felt more dull, a stupid final boss not worthy of being called a god.

Grima (god): Perhaps Fire Emblem’s weakest villain yet, I was so fucking disappointed with Grima both as a character and as a fight. He could have ended the whole fight with a singular barrel-roll.

Garon (monster): I actually thought Garon’s final form in Birthright was a decent fight. He looks scary as a blight dragon, and it felt pretty epic, I just wish he was tougher.

Takumi (human): I really fucking loved Takumi as the final boss of Conquest, it felt extremely epic and the fight itself was so masterfully done, even if it didn’t make much sense to me.

Anankos (god): While Revelations itself was a huge letdown, Anankos was a spectacular bossfight that kept me engaged and entertained from start to finish, even if he as a villain sucked.

So we have 4 monsters, 4 gods and 5 humans.

2 out of 4 monsters were decent. None of the gods stood out. And 4 out of the 3 humans were done right.

Again, I won’t say one is better then another, but it seems to be like human bosses are much easier to do right.I think it has everything to do with how the final boss is “booked”, in lack of a better term, and human characters just happen to be easier to develop since they are more relate-able, but don’t tend to feel as “epic” as a big bad monster.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Mangs

[solrocknroll]

Human bosses don't typically work. Berdo makes this very very obvious.

He's literally a Dark Bishop but with a shiny new tome

[Robert Stewart]

4 out of 2 monsters were decent. None of the gods stood out. And 4 out of the 3 humans were done right.

Minor nitpick, but I think you might have gotten your ratios backwards, there...

[Jotari]

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Idoun was made pathetically easy on purpose to service the plot.

[Briver]

I enjoy both, but I'll cast my vote on monsters because I've already spent the entire game fighting mostly humans.

[Tolvir]

I say both. Here are really room for both as having too many human villains gets boring and takes away a bit of the fantasy aspect of things, and having too many monster villains ( like right now) would not let you have more grounded, non saving the world stories. Both have a place.

Right now though we really need some human villains. Enough dragons, enough deities. It's time we get back to some basic humans, or at the very least some humanoids.

[Topaz Light]

I voted "human", but my actual feelings are a little more complicated than that.

I do think that the series' final bosses should be "human"... in the psychological/personality sense. They should be well-fleshed-out characters with established and understandable (if not condonable) reasons for what they're trying to do.

Whether the final boss is actually physically a human or not is kind of irrelevant, I think. I don't mind whatever species they are, just as long as they're a compelling, well-written character and a reasonably-challenging boss.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Topaz Light

[Jotari]

I say both. Here are really room for both as having too many human villains gets boring and takes away a bit of the fantasy aspect of things, and having too many monster villains ( like right now) would not let you have more grounded, non saving the world stories. Both have a place.

Right now though we really need some human villains. Enough dragons, enough deities. It's time we get back to some basic humans, or at the very least some humanoids.

I don't think we have an influx of monsters right now. Two out of the three final bosses in Fates were monsters (and even in that case, the final boss of Revelations got an extra human form when he's fought again in the Heirs of Fates DLC). Before that in Awakening we had Grima who you fought as a human and and used his monstrous form as an attack. Which at worst means you can chalk it up to having a human and a monster as the final boss. Yes before that we had Medeus twice but they were remakes so I'm a little more hesitant to count them. If anything the current games are the most balanced we've ever had between the two(Archaneia had only monsters, Jugdral had only humans, entire Gameboy Advance run had only monsters, Tellius had only humans).

Edited August 25, 2016 by Jotari

[majora_787]

I feel like Fire Emblem needs more human final bosses, to be honest. With the exception of Veld, the few we've had have been pretty good. And while monster final bosses can be good, they can also fall insanely short, like on the GBA games. I'd much rather future fire emblems try experimenting with interesting final bosses who are human for a bit.

[Thane]

Let's put it this way, the primary antagonists should be human (human based conflicts are more interesting than *insert omnicidal dragon threat*) but the final boss can be whatever the plot calls for. For example, while the Fire Dragon is technically the last boss of FE7, Nergal is the one who summoned it so it's really just an extension of Nergal's actions. Nergal is still the one who drives the plot up to almost the very end of the game.

Also, if it can't be believed that a human would be strong as a big monster, than make the final level really challenging and the last boss himself a relatively softer target when compared to the difficulty of the level.

Exactly this. What matters is that the villain is written well and that we feel a need to defeat them, not what they look like. Ashnard was a human but he failed as an interesting bad guy because he was so removed from the plot that Ike doesn't even know what he looks like until the final map. On the other hand, one could argue that Lyon is a monster, but he's by far Fire Emblem's best written villain (at least out of the localized games) because there's sufficient build-up; we know of his motives, his past, his struggles, and so on, and defeating him means more than just allowing Eirika and Ephraim to return home.

That said, I'd prefer less supernatural stuff in Fire Emblem in general, and that the next few games take a somewhat more grounded approach.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Thane

[The Draco Knight]

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Idoun was made pathetically easy on purpose to service the plot.

Personally, I always tought that Idoun was made easy on purpose, since she is nothing but a mere girl who has lost her soul to become something that she wasn't and that made her weaker.

Anyway, I think human villains are more interesting as characters(Lyon is my favorite example), but monsters villain feels more epic, just like Anankos has shown to use in his battle in Revelation and in particular his battle in Heirs of. Fate, which is my favorite in the series.

[UNLEASH IT]

What about an 'epic tweeeeeest' villain? Someone who is introduced as a good guy early on but is revealed to be evil in the last quarter or so of the game. Bonus points if he/she has a 2nd form.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Chad Thundercock

[CT075]

On the one hand, I think it's a writing cop-out to have your otherwise obviously-final villain just die and summon OMG EVIL GOD that is otherwise basically completely absent as a story entity (thanks validar, thanks nergal)

On the other hand, I really like the motivational message of "hey gods... fuck you!"

Edited September 2, 2016 by CT075