Conspiracy Mafia - End of Days

[euklyd]

Refa why do you assert that Weapons is scummier overall?

That's like the only thing that Weapons did at all.

Also didn't kirsche imply he was town before? And yet, Weapons still ignored him (and presumably does not send him presents on British Christmas)...

this is a good point

[euklyd]

fuck I meant to hit the other button hold on

[Refa]

It's because Proto has done things that make me think that he's more likely to be town (even though some of the arguments against him are valid, and him sheeping a case on me despite previously voting me is kind of bad).

[Prims]

Proto is either not reading the thread or intentionally ignoring my posts.

Don't find Weapons scummy but want more from him. Don't think the case on him is comparable to the reasons why I'm voting Proto.

[Refa]

Or BOTH.

Your case on Proto is that his Refa vote is oddly selective (unless I missed something?). You know who else's Refa vote was oddly selective Weapons. Also what do you think about my reasons for finding Proto townier?

[euklyd]

What do you mean by global scumtell?

And no, I don't think it's a very good one myself. But it's the only thing that bothers me even a little bit, so I might as well place my vote there.

fyi I have a tendency to try seeing everyone as being Town and justifying their behavior, so I fail really hard at identifying scummy behaviors and such.

Global scumtell = "he did this thing that only scum do"

(1) Man, you have not been scum with Euklyd lol (he like spends WAY TOO MUCH TIME double checking all of his posts and seeing if they're all fine and won't get too much flak before actually making them). If anything that's a town tell.

(2) Not really bothered by the rolespec itself, but does this ping anyone else? Like I thought the Illuminati was just a scumteam, not a cult. Dunno if this is a slip or just a silly assumption, just seemed off to me though.

(3) Euklyd, earlier you implied you were bothered by Blitz. Do you think he's scum? Is there anyone that you're scumreading?

(4) Proto's latest post makes me feel like he's not scum. Like yeah, scum can have a hard time forcing cases but his behavior reminds me of BBM in Doomsday (different people, but this isn't a meta thing because I know fuck all about Proto's meta). I don't see why he'd spend so much time arguing that it's hard to come up with reads on ED1 when people are giving him so much flak for it.

(1) it's not really a towntell I spend time agonizing over such things as town as well

it's just that with scum I have people to ask :V

(2) worth taking into consideration but not !!damning!! in and of itself; silly speculation doesn't seem implausible at all considering the rest of the post.

(3) off the top of my head I'm scumreading Blitz, maybe Weapons. nothing is ~strong~

(4) thought so, but I wanted to hear it actually said. also I made the post before I saw #50

[eclipse]

How the hell did you derive a scumread off of four sentences? This feels super-graspy, but I haven't made up my mind on whether I'm looking at Refa the Tryhard or Refa the Eternal Scumlord.

By discussion, are you referring to kirsche and Euklyd or me and Proto or something else entirely.

Everything that had happened before that post.

[Refa]

Why not REFA THE ETERNAL SCUMHARD(ER).

Don't see how it's graspy at all. I said that he was ignoring content to make a forced read, and that his read on me could apply to kirsche who he ignored for some reason.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

proto are you going to answer my post

Weapons, is Proto scummy? I also think "scum implies they're town more than town does" is downright untrue, especially on this forum.

No, I don't think Proto is scummy. Admittedly, I've historically had a town read on him cause his paragraphs are meaty, but in this case, what he says makes sense. Vote the late RVS'er is a pretty classic get out of RVS technique, and the stuff after just feels like a continuation case.

I was considering looking over Refa's actions in RVS of his past, like, 10 games, to see if he implies that he's town more often as town or scum

Not worth it

That being said Weapons, Proto are you really voting Refa on a global scumtell, and not even a very good one?

Is your vote better?

Refa's definitely overreacting to the two votes on him. It's pretty clear Proto's first vote was RVS, so I don't see why Refa needed to spend that much text talking about it, and the rest of that paragraph feels like a continuation case. Then we have a OMGUS (been so long) on a legitimate point. I know it's not that strong, and I wouldn't use it past early game, but it's pretty clear that scum has motivation to do it (for the WIFOM) whereas town doesn't. I like my vote where it is.

Also didn't kirsche imply he was town before? And yet, Weapons still ignored him (and presumably does not send him presents on British Christmas)...

What are you referring to?

Also, FYI, I have a rather limited (late nights) posting availability.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Oh yeah, eclipse sounds scummy, which is normal.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Why not REFA THE ETERNAL SCUMHARD(ER).

Don't see how it's graspy at all. I said that he was ignoring content to make a forced read, and that his read on me could apply to kirsche who he ignored for some reason.

Oh ok, I think I see the post you're referring to. Specifically, I mean when someone hints they are scum; kirsche implied he was town, which is fine.

[eclipse]

Oh yeah, eclipse sounds scummy, which is normal.

Gee thanks

The Graspy Cases continue, but I like what Weapons posted slightly better. Speaking of. . .Weapons, do you think that scum would draw attention to themselves by making a mountain out of a molehill on ED1? It's weird, and I'm too tired to figure out what's driving Refa to do this.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Gee thanks

I'm pretty sure it's the quote links. But you actually sound exactly the same as I remember.

The Graspy Cases continue, but I like what Weapons posted slightly better. Speaking of. . .Weapons, do you think that scum would draw attention to themselves by making a mountain out of a molehill on ED1? It's weird, and I'm too tired to figure out what's driving Refa to do this.

Scum don't want to draw attention to themselves but they may also be scared of a large wagon building before they say anything, at which point it's much harder to deal with. Honestly, I feel like my reads are kind of a crapshoot (even over the past few years, when all of a sudden people started playing properly), so I'm going to stick with my best judgement and not overanalyze things.

[Prims]

@Refa: BBM in Doomsday was not normal behavior for BBM. This is normal behavior for Proto, so if he's scum it makes sense for him to act like he would if he were town. It's null as far as I'm concerned.

Speaking of things people just Do Euklyd needs to stop writing semi-large posts that leave me with no idea who he thinks is scum. The exclamation at the end of this post post is non-contribution because he expresses dislike for something but the question isn't really given in a way that would out anything from Weapons or Proto... Euklyd doesn't really explain if he thinks they're Scum or just Bad either.

Not interested in wagoning Weapons especially after he explained himself, although the tell is weak. I didn't even see where kirsche claimed to be town and still can't find it. For what it's worth I initially interpreted Weapons' post as complaining about Refa specifically claiming not to be anti-town/cult, not invoking WIFOM about his own alignment.

eclipse, why is Blitz a good vote from your PoV?

[FrostyFireMage]

Claiming Miller.

[Refa]

Refa's definitely overreacting to the two votes on him. It's pretty clear Proto's first vote was RVS, so I don't see why Refa needed to spend that much text talking about it, and the rest of that paragraph feels like a continuation case. Then we have a OMGUS (been so long) on a legitimate point. I know it's not that strong, and I wouldn't use it past early game, but it's pretty clear that scum has motivation to do it (for the WIFOM) whereas town doesn't. I like my vote where it is.

I'm reacting to all of the content that as been put out, can't help it if a good deal of it is centered around me. Proto's first vote confused me, but I didn't spend that long talking about it so I don't know what you're referring too (like most of my text is referring to his general behavior overall). Won't disagree that my vote was OMGUSy, but I don't think your point was legitimate at all.

Oh ok, I think I see the post you're referring to. Specifically, I mean when someone hints they are scum; kirsche implied he was town, which is fine.

...I implied that I was town, though (like I specifically referenced the town wincon).

[Refa]

Also Weapons, can you explain why you think eclipse is scummy (normal behavior or not)?

[Kriemhild]

Euklyd's reaction just seems like he was called out and responded accordingly. I'm not sure what he'd do differently as town or scum. Don't find people scummy for talking about it though, it's ED1 so grasping happens.

##Vote: Proto

His Refa vote is oddly selective. kirsche was also being serious on Page 1 and was the one pushing the case Proto is disagreeing with, why go for Refa instead? Looks contrived.

Real Talk? On Page 1??? This is extremely scummy

##Unvote

##Vote: Refa

In case it wasn't obvious, Prims, this wasn't a serious vote. It was a plain RVS joke vote. All of my posts after that have been serious, however.

I also agree with Weapons in that Refa seems to be overreacting, but I'm not sure what to make of it. As Clipsey! pointed out, scum probably wouldn't try to draw this much attention to themselves.

[Vhaltz]

I may have some stuff to say about our role but I still haven't gotten responses from SB or Paper so welp

(Also I'm trying to include stuff by both Mitsuki and I so assume we agree on stuff unless I state otherwise)

Not seeing Refa's reasons for Proto!town, he spends like a whole paragraph explaining why he's scummy but then handwaves it as "too scummy to be scum". Several people play as scum and have no accurate perception of how legitimate early-game suspicions are going to be in the long run, and if I were to expect to see this from anybody on SF it'd be from somebody who hasn't played in a while. What bugs me the most about this post though is how he twisted the Proto cases into a 1v1 "which of Proto or Weapons is scummier" when Weapons had posted once in barely-out-of-rvs. I can get defending somebody for something that you don't think is scummy but making it into "this other guy is scummier CHOOSE" feels like misdirection intent.

##Vote: Refa

Proto is a thing himself but I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other, defending his specific playstyle is something that I could see coming from either alignment in his situation and his #46 is pretty much continuing to do the same thing. Would like to see opinions on who they think is scum now since his content so far amounts to scumhunting theory discussion/playsyle and a sheep on Weapons' Refa case, neither of which help much wrt following his trains of thought on the game.

Mitsuki is kind of wary of him. She thinks it's scummy that he only justified what he's already done and talked a lot when none of it was actually scumhunting, since his only serious case/vote is sheeping somebody else after saying that everything else that people said is not relevant.

ftr I also agree with kirsche wrt differences in behaviour within the same person being telling and RVS not being an exception, people have been caught as scum in RVS before (see: Shinori) due to differences in behaviour so the split between RVS and non-RVS behaviour isn't necessarily there for every player even if it may be for some.

Refa's definitely overreacting to the two votes on him. It's pretty clear Proto's first vote was RVS, so I don't see why Refa needed to spend that much text talking about it, and the rest of that paragraph feels like a continuation case. Then we have a OMGUS (been so long) on a legitimate point. I know it's not that strong, and I wouldn't use it past early game, but it's pretty clear that scum has motivation to do it (for the WIFOM) whereas town doesn't. I like my vote where it is.

I have strong difficulties understanding Weapons atm and this paragraph in particular is giving me a headache, what's wrong with "continuation cases"? could you reword/explain this?

Checking timestamps Blitz's #36 is really weird. I initially thought he was voting Proto for his sheepvote on Refa but there's like 2 minutes between Proto and Blitz's posts and he further justifies his vote right after, so his initial Proto case was pretty much a poke on an RVS post asking somebody to build a case. There were many other people with no serious votes at the time so I don't see why singling Proto out of everybody else makes any sense, it feels opportunistic considering that Proto was starting to get flak for his unpopular opinions.

Cut by Proto

[Vhaltz]

I don't think the cult setupspec thing Refa mentioned is particularly telling though. I also thought that Ilerminaty may have been intentionally hinting towards cult from reading the OP but I'll wait for Blitz's take on it before I say why I did.

FFM should also do stuff other than claiming miller.

[Refa]

Too tired to respond to Yet Another case on me at the moment, but I'm kind of curious about something. FFM, did your Role PM specifically refer to you as a Miller or did it use different wording (perhaps a different role name)?

[Zkirsche]

Since people are confused, here is where I implied I was town:

Refa, if you're an innocent person then stop voting an innocent person and vote defensive scum with me.

Refa was voting me at the time.

I do believe this behavior is based on actual game content

Proto, would someone accusing you of suspicious behaviour not be game content?

I made two posts and not one because I thought it would look funnier there's literally no reason beyond that

This explanation is so easy I don't want to believe it.

wasn't Proto literally mislynched in CY'OR for doing exactly this?

Small bonus points for not joining the easy wagon, as easy as it is for scum to avoid this, it still makes you look a little better.

Blitz's post seems off to me and I'll get to that after I appease my parents.

Can we all agree to scumhunt before we defend? This isn't really that scummy because even town can have messed up priorities like this, but it's a messed up priority nonetheless.

I was considering looking over Refa's actions in RVS of his past, like, 10 games, to see if he implies that he's town more often as town or scum

...but then I remembered that if he implied that he was town in any of those all it would mean was that Refa does that when he plays mafia.

"oh man let's not look for a potential pattern in scum!Refa's RVS behaviour". I feel like you talked yourself out of doing this because the conclusion couldn't possibly be "Refa did that as town before therefore he's town now".

That being said Weapons, Proto are you really voting Refa on a global scumtell, and not even a very good one?

Why is a global scumtell not a realtell? Do you not believe that there is a general style of play for mafia that involves certain tricks (e.g. misrepping, lurking etc)?

Euklyd really needs to change his vote, he implies that Blitz and Weapons are scummy (or at least "off") but then leaves his vote on Vhaltz.

Eclipse is voting someone for rolespeccing which is really weak considering everything going on.

Being reactionary is the least indicative of alignment in RVS (like Darros was super reactionary in Doomsday but so was Poly).

I wouldn't call either of them that reactionary in that game. Hell, part of my case on Darros was that he was not reacting to enough stuff.

Out of interest, what is most indicative of alignment in RVS?

Like I thought the Illuminati was just a scumteam, not a cult. Dunno if this is a slip or just a silly assumption, just seemed off to me though.

Tbf the way our role Pms are worded it's implying that we may not be so innocent after all, and there is an example of someone who switched alignments in the op. It's actually entirely possible that the whole D3 start thing is a way of giving information to us and if we think like that they it would be reasonable to assume that the mafia have some kind of recruitment ability.

How the hell did you derive a scumread off of four sentences?

This actually really bothers me because instead of saying where Refa's logic falls down she makes a simplified view of the situation to make it seem worse than it is. Eclipse herself is still voting Blitz in that post for presumably rolespec and that means her case actually has about as much content as Refa's, and Refa actually called someone out for doing something scummy (construing a vote) rather than rolespeccing which isn't really indicative of alignment.

then handwaves it as "too scummy to be scum".

Out of interest Vhaltz what do you make of Weapons going "eclipse is scummy, and that's normal"? Again, I feel like "too scummy to be scum" and applications of meta are reasonable arguments for why one can doubt their scumread.

Have to go now, but I want to say that I don't really see the overreaction that much from Refa.

Lynch Priority: Euklyd > eclipse for now.

[Zkirsche]

I also don't like how eclipse is trying to justify her suspicion with other people. It's like she's only going to vote Refa for it if other people will, but I feel like she'd put out more as town (with a risk it for a biscuit attitude).

I'm done. Enjoy.

[BBM]

##Unvote, ##Vote: Prims

Proto defended his choice well enough to me. His POV is dumb because of people didn't in ED1 start going after things that are possibly not really alignment indicative, then there would be nothing that WAS alignment indicative to talk about. But regardless he does it every game so as Prims pointed out it's strictly null.

So then why is Prims voting there still? Literally just because Proto didn't answer a question about why he chose to RVS vote Refa over RVS voting kirsche. His reason for voting Proto looks contrived because if I RVS voted kirsche for having a name starting with k, would a valid non-RVS vote against me be "why didn't he go after Kay for also having a name starting with k?????". Yeah I know Prims also said that kirsche was a better target than Refa because kirsche made the case that Proto disagreed with, but that's the point- Proto disagreed with it; he didn't find it scummy. Prims's vote was okay when he first made it, it's not okay to still hold onto it because Proto didn't say something about what was to him clearly an RVS vote. His Euklyd blurb also seems way more alignment-indicative to me (Euklyd is talking a lot without saying whom he thinks is scum) than "omg Proto didn't respond to my vote must be scum dodging a super-easy question!"

[Vhaltz]

Out of interest Vhaltz what do you make of Weapons going "eclipse is scummy, and that's normal"? Again, I feel like "too scummy to be scum" and applications of meta are reasonable arguments for why one can doubt their scumread.

I pretty much ignored it because I assume there's an eclipse/Weapons old mafia interactions injoke I'm not getting.