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Apotheosis: First Run. Can you help me?


DragonFlames
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Hello, fellow Fire Emblem fans. I registered just now an I wanted to know if any of you can help me with my setup for the DLC chapter Apotheosis. I'm not really sure if what I did works out the way I planned it, so I'd like to have a second opinion about it. Thing is, I only just got around to buy all the DLC chapters so far and I haven't completed all of them (I'm missing the three just before Apotheosis and that one itself). I'm playing on Normal/Casual (because that one is my very first file and I didn't delete it until now. The only reason I used this file was because I wasn't quite sure what to expect from the DLC). So, anyway, I'd be glad, if you could judge my setup and maybe give a few suggestions as to what I can do better. Also, I apologize if I word certain things wrong/weird, because English isn't my native tongue *blush*.

Okay, here goes. I know that I can use 20 units in Apotheosis, so I selected these:

Dominik (My male Avatar): Asset: HP, Flaw: Luck. Class: Grandmaster; Skills: Limit Breaker, Aggressor, Ignis, Bowbreaker, Armshift

Chrom: Great Lord; Skills: Limit Breaker, Dual Strike+, Dual Gurad+, Aggressor, Rightful King

Sumia: Dark Flier; Skills: Limit Breaker, Tomefare, Luna, Galeforce, Iote's Shield

Nowi: Manakete; Skills: Limit Breaker, Wyrmsbane, Lifetaker, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker

Lucina: Great Lord; Skills: same as Chrom, except Galeforce in place of Aggressor (obvious) (mother is Sumia)

Cynthia: Falcon Knight; Skills: Same as Sumia, except Lancefare (or is it faire?) and Aether in place of Luna (father is Chrom)

Morgan/Linfan: Manakete; Skills: Limit Breaker, Wyrmsbane, Ignis, Galeforce, Armshift (mother is Nowi)

Nah: Manakete; Skills: Same as Morgan (father is Dominik (a.k.a. me))

Lissa: Sage; Skills: Rally Speed, Rally, Luck, Rally Resistance, Rally Movement, Rally Heart

Owain: Assassin; Skills: Limit Breaker, Galeforce, Luna, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker (father is Frederick)

Severa: Hero; Skills: Limit Breaker, Armshift, Vengeance, Vantage, Bowbreaker (father is Lon'zu (Lon'qu for all North Americans)

BURU (don't ask) (my best friend's Avatar): Asset: Magic, Flaw: Luck. Class: Dark Knight: Skills: Rally Strength, Rally Magic, Rally Skill, Rally Defense, Rally Spectrum

Gwendolin (my female Avatar from my Hard/Classic run): Asset: Speed, Flaw: Defense. Class: Swordmaster; Skills: Limit Breaker, Dual Support+, Luna, Sol, Galeforce

Priam: Hero; Skills: Limit Breaker, Luna, Sol, Swordbreaker, Lancebreaker

Gerome: Wyvern Lord; Skills: Limit Breaker, Sol, Renewal, Swordbreaker, Iote's Shield (father is The Vaike)

Noire: Sorcerer; Skills: Limit Breaker, Vengeance, Tomefaire, Pavise, Lifetaker (father is Libra)

Say'ri: Swordmaster; Skills: Limit Breaker, Swordfaire, Astra, Galeforce, Lancebreaker

Tiki: Manakete; Skills: Limit Breaker, Wyrmsbane, Slow Burn, Quick Burn, Swordbreaker

Olivia: Dancer; Skills: Limit Breaker, Swordfaire, Astra, Special Dance, Galeforce

Maribelle: Valkyrie; Skills: (not really relevant, because all she has to do is use Rescue staves)

Alternate Rescue-bot: DLC-Eirika (Class: Bride)

What do you think? How hard will the enemy curbstomp me? I heard a thing or two about Apotheosis, like that there is a harder Secret Path. Would you recommend I attempt that first or would you say stay away from it entirely? I'll be glad if someone out there would be kind enough to help me. Thanks in advance and sorry about wall of text.

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As this is Apotheosis, you can expect to use primarily children characters for the run. Don't think about using units that are recruited from the Avatar Logbook unless you're going to use them as Rallybots and/or Staffbots since those units aren't useful otherwise since they can't support. It's definitely a good idea to make sure that combat pairs have at least A-rank support.

Some of the character choices are a bit questionable though as long as you don't do anything rash, it should be fine. (ie. I won't recommend using Priam because he cannot support anybody but Dominik). Manaketes usually aren't too useful since they cannot attack up to 4 times in a single turn since they don't possess any weapons that allow them to automatically attack twice in a single battle round.

As for what to expect from the Apotheosis map, there's enemy data on Serenesforest and there are Youtube videos showing whole playthroughs of Apotheosis (both normal and secret routes).

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As this is Apotheosis, you can expect to use primarily children characters for the run. Don't think about using units that are recruited from the Avatar Logbook unless you're going to use them as Rallybots and/or Staffbots since those units aren't useful otherwise since they can't support. It's definitely a good idea to make sure that combat pairs have at least A-rank support.

Some of the character choices are a bit questionable though as long as you don't do anything rash, it should be fine. (ie. I won't recommend using Priam because he cannot support anybody but Dominik). Manaketes usually aren't too useful since they cannot attack up to 4 times in a single turn since they don't possess any weapons that allow them to automatically attack twice in a single battle round.

As for what to expect from the Apotheosis map, there's enemy data on Serenesforest and there are Youtube videos showing whole playthroughs of Apotheosis (both normal and secret routes).

I was planning on pairing Priam up with Gwendolin (because of Dual Support+). I'm not meaning to hate on you, but could you please explain which character choices are 'questionable', as you said or was this just directed at Priam? I put the Manaketes there because they were a godsent in Rogues and Redeemers 3, I just kinda hoped they'd work wonders in Apotheosis, too. But if you say they aren't that useful, I'll think about something different.

Thanks for your advice!

P.S.: LOL at that Team Name XD and wow at beating Lunatic+ on Classic. I couldn't even beat Lunatic/Casual yet... *hides in the corner out of shame*

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I'm not an expert on skill combination, but I don't think skills like Iote's Shield and Wyrmsbane are necessary (are there even wyvern enemies?). Since you have all characters learn Limit Breaker, I think you should be fine as long as you don't charge in recklessly without thinking, on Normal Path at least.

Anyway, here's the general strategy that should work for most people on both Normal and Secret Path: Forged Brave Weapons/Celica's Gale/Waste (the last one is not highly recommended due to low hit); Limit Breaker; A or S supports; Rally bots; Rescue bots (as many as possible, high movement is recommended); Galeforce; at least one potent healer just to be safe. Also make sure that you always pair up when attacking, with the highest support level possible. TL;DR: Make sure you kill them before they even have the chance to touch you, then run away from the enemy range.

Edited by Ryo
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Ah, I see. I abuse the Pair Up system whenever possible, anyways, so that's not going to be an issue. But I think my team lacks a bit in the healers department. I may reclass Sumia to Falcon Knight and train her in staves to counterbalance that a bit. Then, I just have to switch Tomefaire with Lancefaire (in case she absolutely must fight) and give her a Brave Lance (forged Brave Weapons are a must-have in most of the harder DLC-chapters, I noticed (lookin' at you Five-Anna-Firefight... grr...)

When you say that I don't need Iote's Shield, is it safe to assume that there will be few (if any) bow units? In that case, I can think of benching Bowbreaker as well. Btw, how useful are these breaker skills exactly. I, for one, like using them, but I see few players who actually put them on their units. Can they even make a difference in Apotheosis?

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Ah, I see. I abuse the Pair Up system whenever possible, anyways, so that's not going to be an issue. But I think my team lacks a bit in the healers department. I may reclass Sumia to Falcon Knight and train her in staves to counterbalance that a bit. Then, I just have to switch Tomefaire with Lancefaire (in case she absolutely must fight) and give her a Brave Lance (forged Brave Weapons are a must-have in most of the harder DLC-chapters, I noticed (lookin' at you Five-Anna-Firefight... grr...)

When you say that I don't need Iote's Shield, is it safe to assume that there will be few (if any) bow units? In that case, I can think of benching Bowbreaker as well. Btw, how useful are these breaker skills exactly. I, for one, like using them, but I see few players who actually put them on their units. Can they even make a difference in Apotheosis?

As to breakers, it depends as to whether the enemy has Hawkeye or not.

Edited by Levant Caprice
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Ah, I see. I abuse the Pair Up system whenever possible, anyways, so that's not going to be an issue. But I think my team lacks a bit in the healers department. I may reclass Sumia to Falcon Knight and train her in staves to counterbalance that a bit. Then, I just have to switch Tomefaire with Lancefaire (in case she absolutely must fight) and give her a Brave Lance (forged Brave Weapons are a must-have in most of the harder DLC-chapters, I noticed (lookin' at you Five-Anna-Firefight... grr...)

When you say that I don't need Iote's Shield, is it safe to assume that there will be few (if any) bow units? In that case, I can think of benching Bowbreaker as well. Btw, how useful are these breaker skills exactly. I, for one, like using them, but I see few players who actually put them on their units. Can they even make a difference in Apotheosis?

1. You don't need many healers though. Since the point is to avoid being damaged as much as possible.

2. Actually what I meant is that they'll most likely kill you anyway, with or without Iote's Shield, if you let a unit stand in their attack range without further preparation. IS and other defensive skills like Pavise and Aegis would see little use in Apo. because your purpose in most cases is to kill the enemies before they can hit you with major damage.

3. While they can be useful against certain enemies, that depends on how many Hawkeye enemies there are. Again, you shouldn't even let yourself be exposed often to enemy attacks to begin with. Many enemies have Hawkeye in Secret Path, I don't remember about Normal Path, but you should be able to look up enemy data online though.

Edited by Ryo
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I got the point 2 to an extent, but what about their retaliation attacks when I attack them. Isn't it fairly useful to halve that damage you receive when you attack them? (i.e. the Generals at the beginning all have Spears as far as I've heard)

And I covered the Hawkeye issue in my post above. That's what I thought Iote's Shield would be useful for. In case there would be Snipers/Bow Knights with Hit+ skills. Hit+20 is screwy enough sometimes... and if it is a skill that lets you hit with 100%, there's nothing much you can do, except killing them first. I just hope that there aren't that many enemies so that this tactic works.

About the Rally units: Would you recommend more than two? Or are two Rally units that combined pack all Rally skills enough?

Edited by DragonFlames
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I was planning on pairing Priam up with Gwendolin (because of Dual Support+). I'm not meaning to hate on you, but could you please explain which character choices are 'questionable', as you said or was this just directed at Priam? I put the Manaketes there because they were a godsent in Rogues and Redeemers 3, I just kinda hoped they'd work wonders in Apotheosis, too. But if you say they aren't that useful, I'll think about something different.

Thanks for your advice!

P.S.: LOL at that Team Name XD and wow at beating Lunatic+ on Classic. I couldn't even beat Lunatic/Casual yet... *hides in the corner out of shame*

Most of the parents are questionable choices, especially characters like Say'ri and Tiki which lack S-rank supports and have pretty mediocre to poor class selection.

Dual Support+ only buffs Hit, Crit, Avoid, and Crit Avoid to the equivalent of a B-rank Support, AND it does not increase Dual Strike % at all. So it's still a pretty poor pairing, unfortunately.

Manaketes are poor in Apotheosis because of their poor caps and poor damage from Dragonstone+. Compared to units who can attack 4 times, Manaketes' damage output is pretty poor, and stuff like Luna+ means you can still die in like 2 hits anyway from the later wave enemies.

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I got the point 2 to an extent, but what about their retaliation attacks when I attack them. Isn't it fairly useful to halve that damage you receive when you attack them? (i.e. the Generals at the beginning all have Spears as far as I've heard)

Like I said, with both units wielding Brave Weapons (just choose the right ones), you'll kill most enemies before suffering any damage yourself (unless you miss). Also Pavise/Aegis don't always activate. That's why not so many people depend on them. If you want to be safer, you can still use them though, there's no harm either way.

And I covered the Hawkeye issue in my post above. That's what I thought Iote's Shield would be useful for. In case there would be Snipers/Bow Knights with Hit+ skills. Hit+20 is screwy enough sometimes... and if it is a skill that lets you hit with 100%, there's nothing much you can do, except killing them first. I just hope that there aren't that many enemies so that this tactic works.

You can deal with bow users from an adjacent space or using Long/Double Bow. That way you can't be hit.

About the Rally units: Would you recommend more than two? Or are two Rally units that combined pack all Rally skills enough?

Two rally units are enough IMO.

Edited by Ryo
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I got the point 2 to an extent, but what about their retaliation attacks when I attack them. Isn't it fairly useful to halve that damage you receive when you attack them? (i.e. the Generals at the beginning all have Spears as far as I've heard)

And I covered the Hawkeye issue in my post above. That's what I thought Iote's Shield would be useful for. In case there would be Snipers/Bow Knights with Hit+ skills. Hit+20 is screwy enough sometimes... and if it is a skill that lets you hit with 100%, there's nothing much you can do, except killing them first. I just hope that there aren't that many enemies so that this tactic works.

About the Rally units: Would you recommend more than two? Or are two Rally units that combined pack all Rally skills enough?

2 Rally units are enough if you're trying to use all Rally skills in the game (1 male and 1 female or use DLC Katarina and DLC Palla). The Rally skills you don't really need are Rally Defense, Rally Resistance, Rally Skill and Rally Luck. For example, you can have DLC Katarina run Rally Strength, Speed, Spectrum, Heart and Movement while DLC Palla runs Rally Magic, Speed, Spectrum, Heart and Movement.

Iote's Shield isn't that useful since ideally, the best solution for flyers against bow-users is to not put them in such a position in the first place.

Edited by Roflolxp54
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Like I said, with both units wielding Brave Weapons (just choose the right ones), you'll kill most enemies before suffering any damage yourself (unless you miss). Also Pavise/Aegis don't always activate. That's why not so many people depend on them. If you want to be safer, you can still use them though, there's no harm either way.

You can deal with bow users from an adjacent place or using Long/Double Bow. That way you can't be hit.

Two rally units are enough IMO.

Alright, thanks a lot :-)

I think I will add more attack skills like Astra or Luna to pile more damage. Four possible Astra triggers with two possible Dual Attacks for each should do the trick with the units who can use it (i.e. Gwendolin/Severa). And Luna halving enemy defense/resistance is also a boon, I think. Here's hoping that few of them have Counter, because that would screw up the Astra-strategy.

One last thing: How should I use Vantage/Vengeance, if at all? It's something that can save you in a pinch, but the task is not to get into a pinch in the first place, so should I leave it out?

The Rally skills you don't really need are Rally Defense, Rally Resistance, Rally Skill and Rally Luck.

What should I put on my Rally bots instead (Lissa and BURU)?

I thought that Rally Def. and Rally Res. could be handy in a pinch. Rally Luck and Rally Skill help with activating attack skills. At least that's what I thought. But I can think of something else, like giving the two Limit Breaker also, just in case.

Alright, I think I got it now. I have to train up my other units and give them Limit Breaker also (like Laurent, Brady etc.). And I think I could replace Maribelle and maybe Olivia, because using her in Apotheosis sounds like a risk, especially if I don't pair her up with someone else. (You know, because she should just dance).

Edited by DragonFlames
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If you're using Lissa and a Logbook unit, give Lissa Spd/Mov/Mag/Res/Heart and the Logbook unit Spc/Str/Def/Skl/Lck.

Apo plays a little differently from the other maps in the game in that you can't survive fighting much stuff on enemy phase. There are things that will come at you with 100+ Atk, and you just can't sponge more than one or two of those hits. You need to do the bulk of your combat on Player Phase, so I'd advise dropping all pairs who don't have at least an A support and one Galeforce and replacing them with high level Sages and Valkyries from Spotpass to use Rescue.

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Alright guys! I took your advice into consideration and I finally beat it! (the normal path at least!) Thank you so much for helping me out on this one and sorry if some of my questions were stupid! I think I'm going to attempt the secret path in another file, because the pairings (especially the marriages) were suboptimal, to say the least. I reclassed Morgan and Nah to Grandmasters and Nowi to Wyvern Lord to use Brave Weapons with them, but that turned out pretty meh. So I think the secret path will have to wait until I make a file with more optimal pairings and skillsets.

But still! Thank you all so much for replying to this topic and giving me so much helpful advice!

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I suggest that you try beating Secret Path with the current file first and see how it goes. It's not that impossible, even though there are flaws. You don't really need "optimal pairings and skillsets" to beat SP. I've tried it with only parent characters and Rally bots (many of them don't have Galeforce and only have A support) and there weren't any major problem as long as Limit Breaker remained intact. You have to be really unlucky to die if you've prepared well. If you're not sure, you can also have more male units learn Aggressor to pile more damage.

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As this is Apotheosis, you can expect to use primarily children characters for the run. Don't think about using units that are recruited from the Avatar Logbook unless you're going to use them as Rallybots and/or Staffbots since those units aren't useful otherwise since they can't support. It's definitely a good idea to make sure that combat pairs have at least A-rank support.

Some of the character choices are a bit questionable though as long as you don't do anything rash, it should be fine. (ie. I won't recommend using Priam because he cannot support anybody but Dominik). Manaketes usually aren't too useful since they cannot attack up to 4 times in a single turn since they don't possess any weapons that allow them to automatically attack twice in a single battle round.

As for what to expect from the Apotheosis map, there's enemy data on Serenesforest and there are Youtube videos showing whole playthroughs of Apotheosis (both normal and secret routes).

Umm, I know the general advice you're giving is spot on.. but just saying... you can roflstomp this map with Gen 1 units too.

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Umm, I know the general advice you're giving is spot on.. but just saying... you can roflstomp this map with Gen 1 units too.

That's true. But for a good number of players, they get nervous on the first run -- children characters are a safe bet for getting through the map. And I did not rule out using Gen. 1 units for Apotheosis runs (can't stop Chrom and possibly at least Robin and Olivia from joining the party).

Edited by Roflolxp54
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Umm, I know the general advice you're giving is spot on.. but just saying... you can roflstomp this map with Gen 1 units too.

Gen 1 only, no Avatar and no S supports is the fairly definitive set of restrictions for encompassing bad teambuilding, and it's honestly not that different from No Holds Barred aside from needing more healing Staves (with fewer procs and lower DS rates, most of your kills will come from doubling, so you'll take a lot of damage).

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If you bring Limit Breaker, a good Rally character or two (I used Katarina with Spectrum/Heart/Strength/Magic/Speed), a bunch of staff users with healing staves and Rescue, and a decent number of Galeforce users you should be fine.

Rescue is so that all fights happen during the player phase on your terms.

I beat it with three teams of attackers (Male Avatar x Cordelia, Cordelia!Morgan x Henry!Owain, Avatar!Severa x Ricken!Inigo) which had 5 Galeforces represented among those characters; I could obtain 8 attacks per round assuming I got my kills.

(Having the -faire skills and Aggressor helps a lot in that regard).

Avatar was a Grandmaster, Cordelia a Dark Flier, Morgan a Valkyrie, Owain a Dread Fighter, I don't remember what Severa was, and Inigo was a Sniper.

It wasn't hard…. just long.

I never was in a fight that I could actually lose as I did the math to calculate the maximum damage I could possibly take under the worst case scenarios (i.e. their Vengeance triggered while they were at 1 HP, damages from counter, Luna+, Aether, etc.), double check by math with a calculator, and chose my fights in such a way so that I could never lose.

Then some Rescue and healing staves like Physic, Recover, and Fortify as appropriate after fights if I took damage.

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As this is Apotheosis, you can expect to use primarily children characters for the run. Don't think about using units that are recruited from the Avatar Logbook unless you're going to use them as Rallybots and/or Staffbots since those units aren't useful otherwise since they can't support. It's definitely a good idea to make sure that combat pairs have at least A-rank support.

Logbooks unit are perfectly usable (at least in normal path, I was able to clear it with only einherjars) the lack of support is compensated by a certainly better skillset than any gen 1 char.

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Logbooks unit are perfectly usable (at least in normal path, I was able to clear it with only einherjars) the lack of support is compensated by a certainly better skillset than any gen 1 char.

N.Apo has no Luna+, Vantage+, Counter, turn limits, or fast enemies, making it beatable with literally anything, so team restrictions really don't matter there. I've even cleared it with nothing but an untouched Lv.1 Chrom before, and it's not possible to go lower than that.

Large skillsets actually don't make much of a difference either, because you've still only got five skillslots. The majority of those extra classes won't be doing anything, and they certainly aren't doing enough to compensate for a 40% loss in DS rate.

Edited by Czar_Yoshi
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N.Apo has no Luna+, Vantage+, Counter, turn limits, or fast enemies, making it beatable with literally anything, so team restrictions really don't matter there. I've even cleared it with nothing but an untouched Lv.1 Chrom before, and it's not possible to go lower than that.

Large skillsets actually don't make much of a difference either, because you've still only got five skillslots. The majority of those extra classes won't be doing anything, and they certainly aren't doing enough to compensate for a 60% loss in DS rate.

Even in secret it's still doable (quite hard, but I'm pretty it's because I had no 3 range to deal with those pesky vantage+/counter sniper and I could have taken out AT for something useful). Just beat it now with the same team than my normal run and Ignis and galeforce on everyone was just a godsend. DS rate for all my pairs were between 47 and 52% so I didn't have so much trouble killing things.

Edited by Sartek
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