Ike is overrated

[Junkhead]

For a long time, people were saying that Ike was "OP", that he breaks the game and all that. But he has a bunch of glaring flaws. I would like to clarify, I've nothing aginst Ike, and I concede he is a very good character overall. Just, you know, not as good as people once thought he was

Do keep in mind, this is within the context of Hard Mode:

- Ike has glaring Spd issues.

If you don't give him the Speedwings, he'll be aching for constant Spd levels. Every, single, level. It's not a huge problem, considering he can get the levels necessary to achieve said Spd, but this is only the beggining of his problems.

- Ike's 2-range sucks.

I think this might be a bigger issue. So, let's say Ike starts doubling consistently. He's pretty much set, right? Well, there's still that one issue in mind. And for this, I actually consider Boyd maybe even slightly superior. Exageration-much? Maaybe not as much as you'd think. Sure, Boyd has even worse Spd issues than Ike (a whooping 5 deficit). But given the right resources (Angelic Robe), you can BEXP it up with smart play within 5 chapters (this is assuming he gets enough Exp to almost complete a level-up, but you BEXP the tiny bit up).

It'd look something like this, by the end of 3-4:

Unit      Level HP  Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res         Support
Boyd        13  53* 27   1   22  22  13  18    8          Mist
Ike         15  46  26   2   30  25  15  22    7     Mia, or something

In terms of raw stats, Ike's winning. But factor in a Crown, now. 13/1 BEXP'd Boyd:

Unit      Level HP  Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res         Support
Boyd        1   57  29   5   24  24  13  20  12           Mist

Or you could allow him to level-up a little more for an extra 1-2 Spd at 3-7, then he's definitely ready for the rest of Part 3 (25-26 AS). And being of the Reaver class, he can pack in Celerity and an extra Skill like Paragon, Adept, Resolve, etc.

*I gave them similiar treatments regarding BEXP. But I'm also assuming "reasonable" CEXP (Combat Exp) gain on their behalf, which is why it's not unreasonable Ike can complete a full level-up by 3-1, even if going super fast.

*Gave Ike more "natural" level-ups (aka, not BEXP) than Boyd because he has them better, lol. Even with HP capped (assuming a Robe), he still favors Skill/Str & Def.

Even if you decide to give him Adept, he still falls short one 2HKO'ing enemies that aren't Snipers.

- Plenty of others are better than he is in Part 3.

At this point, you're probably thinking, "you're just deliberately bashing Ike". Like I said, that's really not what I'm going for. But I can honestly tell you that there are indeed a handful of characters that dominate Part 3, whereas he's just there:

- Haar (obviously)

- Titania (same as Haar, minus the flight)

- Oscar (same as Titania, minus packing a punch + Adept)

- Gatrie (Celerity + Crown)

- Boyd (aforementioned setup/s)

- It's worthmentioning Shinon's actually pretty key to lowturning some chapters, but I'm going too far~

I'd wagger to say that Mia's actually a lot like Ike, given that you give her the right resources to fulfill her potential (they're both super strong at 1-range, share a support and both of them have crappy 2-range.

Part 4 goes without saying, he obviously stomps that area. It's just that I feel people forget that his Part 4 isn't 90% of his existence. Part 3 exists, and there are plenty others who can take over it.

Ike's a really balanced character, if you look at it well.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Soul o:

[Radiant head]

I've never seen anyone call Part 3 Ike OP. Usually Haar is deemed the hero of Part 3, and Titania isn't far behind .

Edited December 1, 2015 by Radiant head

[Junkhead]

I might be paraphrasing people who play super casually (actually what sort of started it all, I was talking about it with a friend who's not a huge FE geek, quite unlike myself). OR, I could be really outdated. lol Still it's an interesting call, ee-mo.

[secondworld]

I've never seen anyone call Part 3 Ike OP. Usually Haar is deemed the hero of Part 3, and Titania isn't far behind .

"Ike is so OP" was common, I haven't heard it in a while though.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Base Ike without FE9 boosts can't double HM warriors and halberdiers and an elthunder sage can oneshot him with a crit.

[Shadow Mir]

Base Ike without FE9 boosts can't double HM warriors and halberdiers and an elthunder sage can oneshot him with a crit.

Doesn't the bold stay true for pretty much the whole game?

[Water Mage]

Ike isn't really overrated, it is true that he does get a lot a praise as a unit, but there's a good reason for the praise.

It's not only his stats, which are pretty good in both games, but there's also the fact that he has a prf, unbreakable and strong weapon with a ranged attack to boot, and he also has an earth affinity, which is one the best affinities you can have in the Tellius.

As you can, while he is not a perfect unit, he has a lot going for him, which is why he is considered such a good unit.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Water Mage

[Ansem]

ive actually only recently finished this game and am on my second playthrough. he was level 20 for most of part 3 which was fucking dumb. i also found haar to be the hero of everything until i had yune bless the wrong weapon for him .-.

[Junkhead]

Base Ike without FE9 boosts can't double HM warriors and halberdiers and an elthunder sage can oneshot him with a crit.

Not sure if sarcasm.

Ike isn't really overrated, it is true that he does get a lot a praise as a unit, but there's a good reason for the praise.

It's not only his stats, which are pretty good in both games, but there's also the fact that he has a prf, unbreakable and strong weapon with a ranged attack to boot, and he also has an earth affinity, which is one the best affinities you can have in the Tellius.

As you can, while he is not a perfect unit, he has a lot going for him, which is why he is considered such a good unit.

Ike's even less exceptional in the previous game. For most of the game, he's locked to melee-range. Like, if memory serves, that's not super bad in FE9, but it's a start. His stats are pretty solid, but being Sword-locked kind of sucks. He has good growths n' all, but I still feel like he's outclassed by a lot of characters (mounts, Boyd, Lethe, maaaybe Mordecai & Soren). Edited December 1, 2015 by Soul o:

[Florete]

There is no way Boyd is better than Ike. Ike has a much easier time growing Spd with this careful BEXP play you're using for Boyd (especially with that Angelic Robe), he's notably more durable and accurate, and once he gets Ragnell it's not even worth debating. I don't disagree that Ike has been overrated in the past, but you're underrating him now.

I also don't think Gatrie or Oscar are better. Either of them need a sizable amount of resources to function as well as Ike. Even if Ike is mostly limited to melee combat, it's pretty much the best you've got. Don't forget that RD deals more with fewer, stronger enemies than its predecessors tended to, emphasizing the importance of player phase more. Ranged play is valuable, but not that valuable.

Only Haar and Titania are obviously better than him in part 3, and even they need help to function as well as we want them to.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Red Fox of Fire

[Mekkah]

I can see mounted units being better but lol Gatrie and Boyd? You instapromote Boyd at a super low level and compare him to Ike when he's reaped all of the benefits (promotion bonus) but none of the drawbacks (super slow growth). And there's another drawback: now that Crown can't be used on someone like Titania, Haar, Shinon, Mia, etc for instahax/saving some BEXP levels.

Celerity/Crown Gatrie? Did we just timetravel 10 years into the past? Gatrie's contributions dwindle quickly in part 3 when half the time he can't move where you want him to. You can give him Celerity to make up for it, but someone like Haar gets much more out of it. I can give Ike Celerity too, now he's running circles around Gatrie.

Part 4 isn't 90% of their existence, but it's more like 30-40%. That's still a pretty big amount of game for some mediocre unit like Boyd or Gatrie to make up for it. Oscar's got issues too.

Summary of OP: Ike has these issues, these units [with issues I'm not going to mention] are better. Also here's a Crowned Boyd at his best possible moment.

[Gradivus.]

Don't forget that RD deals more with fewer, stronger enemies than its predecessors tended to, emphasizing the importance of player phase more.

more like precisely the opposite, part 3 2nd half and part 4 are very EP-centric.

Ike absolutely wrecks once he's promoted and has ragnell, he's "merely" solid before.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Gradivus.

[Junkhead]

There is no way Boyd is better than Ike. Ike has a much easier time growing Spd with this careful BEXP play you're using for Boyd (especially with that Angelic Robe), he's notably more durable and accurate, and once he gets Ragnell it's not even worth debating. I don't disagree that Ike has been overrated in the past, but you're underrating him now.

I just did the maths and gave Ike a very similiar treatment to Boyd. Here's what he would look like (+Angelic Robe):

Unit      Level HP  Str Mag Skl  Spd   Lck Def Res         Support
Ike         15  50*  27  2   30  25-26  15  23  7      Mia, or something

Not a whole ton has changed, in the sense that Ike's still overall superior in raw stats. Yes, he also has better Def, but it's not like Boyd's ever worrying about his durability (given that gigantic HP, solid Def and Oscar or even Ike as a potential support partner). He also has the ability to combo awesome 15-Capacity Skills, like Celerity+Resolve. Right there, you're given the second-coming of Titania. While the issues I pointed out are rather neglible, I don't think the fact changes that others can indeed out-perform him where it matters. And Ragnell was never out of the question. Thing is, it's not available for an important part of his existence.

I also don't think Gatrie or Oscar are better. Either of them need a sizable amount of resources to function as well as Ike. Even if Ike is mostly limited to melee combat, it's pretty much the best you've got. Don't forget that RD deals more with fewer, stronger enemies than its predecessors tended to, emphasizing the importance of player phase more. Ranged play is valuable, but not that valuable.

Only Haar and Titania are obviously better than him in part 3, and even they need help to function as well as we want them to.

If you're not using Titania, Oscar can easily nab the Speedwings, Adept and be her replacement. He's 3HKO'ing everything not a General (on a mount). If given the same kind of treatment I gave to Ike and Boyd, he can start patching up his Str a little, right before his promotion. Once he takes a Crown, it's over. Gatrie's Spd is stupid silly to get going. It's among his highest growths, along with Str and Def. He's on the same boat as Oscar and Boyd in the sense that he needs that Crown. But they definitely make up for it. With Celerity, Gatrie's an 8-Mov unstoppable jauggernaut.

It's worth mentioning, a lot of these scenarios don't co-exist with each other. But it's there. You can give them those things, and they'll carry the team for you.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Soul o:

[Florete]

more like precisely the opposite, part 3 2nd half and part 4 are very EP-centric.

Ike absolutely wrecks once he's promoted and has ragnell, he's "merely" solid before.

Uh, no. I never said enemy phase isn't important, I said it's less important compared to player phase than in other games. This is why Shinon is actually considered a good unit despite being a Sniper.

I just did the maths and gave Ike a very similiar treatment to Boyd. Here's what he would look like (+Angelic Robe):

Unit      Level HP  Str Mag Skl  Spd   Lck Def Res         Support
Ike         15  50*  27  2   30  25-26  15  23  7      Mia, or something

Not a whole ton has changed, in the sense that Ike's still overall superior in raw stats. Yes, he also has better Def, but it's not like Boyd's ever worrying about his durability (given that gigantic HP, solid Def and Oscar or even Ike as a potential support partner). He also has the ability to combo awesome 15-Capacity Skills, like Celerity+Resolve. Right there, you're given the second-coming of Titania. While the issues I pointed out are rather neglible, I don't think the fact changes that others can indeed out-perform him where it matters. And Ragnell was never out of the question. Thing is, it's not available for an important part of his existence.

If you're not using Titania, Oscar can easily nab the Speedwings, Adept and be her replacement. He's 3HKO'ing everything not a General (on a mount). If given the same kind of treatment I gave to Ike and Boyd, he can start patching up his Str a little, right before his promotion. Once he takes a Crown, it's over. Gatrie's Spd is stupid silly to get going. It's among his highest growths, along with Str and Def. He's on the same boat as Oscar and Boyd in the sense that he needs that Crown. But they definitely make up for it. With Celerity, Gatrie's an 8-Mov unstoppable jauggernaut.

It's worth mentioning, a lot of these scenarios don't co-exist with each other. But it's there. You can give them those things, and they'll carry the team for you.

...This is a lot of stretching. Yeah, these units can perform better than Ike with a ton of resources dumped into them. So what? I bet I could make Soren better than base Ike if I gave him all the stat boosters and BEXP, too. Edited December 1, 2015 by Red Fox of Fire

[Junkhead]

I can see mounted units being better but lol Gatrie and Boyd? You instapromote Boyd at a super low level and compare himto Ike when he's reaped all of the benefits (promotion bonus) but none of the drawbacks (super slow growth).

I don't instapromote him, I propose we complete his levels with BEXP only (which means he gets something like 80 Exp per chapter) and are able to BEXP Spd/Def up that way. We do so until he's level 13, with the stats I gave and then you "instapromote" him.

And there's another drawback: now that Crown can't be used on someone like Titania, Haar, Shinon, Mia, etc for instahax/saving some BEXP levels.

It's not intended for this to work in every possible scenario, but the potential is there. It's not like I'm saying, "hey lets give lyre 20 levels of BEXP and have her Rend everything". This is something well within their reach, and they make great use of it. And it's not like Haar and Titania have to be there every single playthrough. Others can do a similiar task, granted that flight is still useful even for Rescue-Dropping purposes.

And are you actually comparing it to someone like Shinon (as much as I hate to say it) and Mia? For starters, Shinon's lack of 2-range is pretty much self-explanatory. Mia on the other hand, she's pretty mucha weaker Ike. She still has average mobility and can only 1RKO at melee range.

Celerity/Crown Gatrie? Did we just timetravel 10 years into the past? Gatrie's contributions dwindle quickly in part 3 when half the time he can't move where you want him to. You can give him Celerity to make up for it, but someone like Haar gets much more out of it.

I just killed his one and only con: Lack of mobility. 8-Mov is still above-average, and you're giving it to someone who can actually use it, rather than giving it to someone who can actually live without it and still Solo Mode. And no, I'm not going with the "isn't necessary" logic. Yes, it sure as hell isn't necessary. It's kill vs. overkill.

I can give Ike Celerity too, now he's running circles around Gatrie.

Running circles around Gatrie without the ability to solo maps faster. Yeah.

Part 4 isn't 90% of their existence, but it's more like 30-40%. That's still a pretty big amount of game for some mediocre unit like Boyd or Gatrie to make up for it. Oscar's got issues too.

Neither of them should be anywhere close to mediocre at that point. If you've actually read through my setups, it's not something far-fetched. If Boyd & Gatrie are doing that from the moment they get the Crown, Ike will only be replicating their job by then. He's only really winning at The Tower.

...This is a lot of stretching. Yeah, these units can perform better than Ike with a ton of resources dumped into them. So what? I bet I could make Soren better than base Ike if I gave him all the stat boosters and BEXP, too.

You'd be surpised just how viable a (T) Soren is. This isn't the case, obviously.

I'm not even going for anything crazy like that. The best you're taking up is a Crown for Haar, who can still do his job the same exact way for a couple of chapters. I got a really good turncount and I'm not even using Haar as a "Solo Mode" guy. He just flies and carries people around, for like half of Part 3.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Soul o:

[Gradivus.]

Uh, no. I never said enemy phase isn't important, I said it's less important compared to player phase than in other games. This is why Shinon is actually considered a good unit despite being a Sniper.

FE7-9 make it easier to make the case for PP action being important in FE10, but if it's supposed to be less EP-centric than other FE games in general, I disagree. FE5, 6, 11 and 12 are games with focus on PP action. FE10, in comparison, is a predominantly EP-centric game, even if PP is more often involved than in 7-9 (and this fact fades away from the middle of part 3 on). In the parts I brought up, though, the enemies are in very piled up formations, there are like 5-7 Paladins (or whatever type of unit, I'm just taking Paladins for this example) per bunch of enemies and the ways you can go about them are killing all of them on PP (using multiple units) or just routing or almost killing them in one EP by using a strong melee or 1-2 (whichever you need in the situation) unit. Relying on EP action for the majority is generally easier and more effective. PP does end up playing a minor role.

Fwiw in my playthrough of this game I got Shinon to Marksman, he was quite solid up to 3-8 and then did very few from 3-10 on because his lack of EP combat made him only get one kill each turn, which is fairly unproductive when the maps are designed as mentioned above.

In other words, sure you can do PP actions if you're good at EP combat already. But being bad on EP reduces a unit's value notably, is my main point, along with this:

Don't forget that RD deals more with fewer, stronger enemies than its predecessors tended to,

It simply doesn't have less numerous enemies in the late parts. They're stronger, I don't disagree, but still not difficult to overpower.

[Junkhead]

Actually, yeah. I don't mind the whole "doesnt have 2-range" thing all that much. That's only more of a concern around Part 4. Also because Laguz like Mordecai, Randulf, Janaff & Ulki can still shine.

[Irysa]

@ Gradivus: Fox did say "predecessors", not "all other games in the franchise"

I'd agree that FE10 is a predominately EP centric game though.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Irysa

[Florete]

@ Gradivus: Fox did say "predecessors", not "all other games in the franchise"

Precisely. I was specifically referring to 7-9 (could throw Awakening in, as well), as these are the best known games in the western fandom.

I'd agree that FE10 is a predominately EP centric game though.

I don't completely agree with this, though. Pre-tower Part 4 and some other rout maps are certainly more enemy phase focused, but the rest of the maps aren't so much. And by that I don't mean that nothing happens on enemy phase, rather that the more important things tend to happen on player phase, even if potentially more action takes place on enemy phase.

[Junkhead]

It's actually good to know Shinon will never be anything less but "good", at least.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Soul o:

[Gradivus.]

I didn't ignore that (I did imply it's technically true, see the quotes below), I just moved the comparison to the rest of the games because I think it's better to compare the game to the series' standards and not FE7-9 standards, since it's more representative of what prevalent PP basis is and what not.

FE7-9 make it easier to make the case for PP action being important in FE10

even if PP is more often involved than in 7-9

rather that the more important things tend to happen on player phase

How is more important defined for you? Bosskills are done on PP (and EP additionally for more damage if they're tough, but PP is the most common way) in every FE, I agree that doing things like killing siege mages, healers or ballistae is a thing in RD and is done on PP, but I wouldn't be so sure that killing >90% of the mooks counts as less important than killing the 10% of the enemies that have the traits that make them require PP action.

Precisely. I was specifically referring to 7-9 (could throw Awakening in, as well), as these are the best known games in the western fandom.

I don't think the bolded part holds much weight on SF, since the rest of the games is well-known here. Elaborated on the rest above.

Wrt the tower, I agree with 4-E-3 through 4-E-5 being more PP-based. I question the other chapters, barring perhaps the part where you might want to rush Hetzel (although I think it's non-essential because the restore staff can solve that), and even then 4-E-1's general design is kind of a clusterfuck and many of the generals have melee, so the royals do the job of mass counterkilling well. Let me list a bunch more significant examples too.

- 1-9 and 1-E

- 2-3 and 2-E

- 3-10, 3-11, 3-E

- 3-earlygame to a smaller, but still noticeable extent

Edited December 2, 2015 by Gradivus.

[Irysa]

I don't completely agree with this, though. Pre-tower Part 4 and some other rout maps are certainly more enemy phase focused, but the rest of the maps aren't so much. And by that I don't mean that nothing happens on enemy phase, rather that the more important things tend to happen on player phase, even if potentially more action takes place on enemy phase.

You're using some wildly different definition to what others use for PP centric vs EP centric then.

I mean, just looking at objectives, half of the objectives in this game could be said to be "EP orientated objectives", but when you look at the maps, units, and enemies within the game it becomes pretty apparent that past Part-1, most decent units are getting 3 to 5HKO'd (enemies in Part 3 sport at most 40ish attack and that's later on, AND mostly relegated to the tigers, the majority are low 30s) against enemies that also have kinda iffy hit, and most of said enemies are within ORKO range for said decent units, it's pretty hard to ignore that EP combat is actually good and very relevant for a large chunk of the game.

I mean you can argue that "killing enemies is not core to the objective of a bunch of those maps", but the way they actually function means the most effective ways to clear them involve moving good units out to kill a lot of enemy units on enemy phase. Just because positioning or w/e was important on PP doesn't make the game PP centric, because duh, your positioning is always important. PP centric games like FE6, 11, 12 have enemies who are bulky enough to be prohibitively difficult to ORKO for most units without rigging crits/using effective weaponry and tend to 2HKO most units, 3HKOing some of the better ones and usually only like 2 units per game relevantly reach the "fuck da knicks" tier of durability (Miledy, Sedgar/Wolf, Robe/Drop dumped Palla/MU). Oh and even taking that into account, you have to finish off those enemies on PP lol.

Also Shinon is mad overrated in general lol.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Irysa

[Sweet_Basil]

Casuals definitely overrate him, I hardly see them mention Titania being better than him (which she is).

Hector is more overrated

Edited December 2, 2015 by Rosemary

[Baldrick]

Actually, yeah. I don't mind the whole "doesnt have 2-range" thing all that much. That's only more of a concern around Part 4. Also because Laguz like Mordecai, Randulf, Janaff & Ulki can still shine.

But Ike has Ragnell in Part 4. If Boyd has better 1-2 range when it's least necessary and worse 1-2 range when it's most necessary, it is really much of a point in his favour?

[Junkhead]

If they're both 1RKO'ing, that's not a problem.