Roy and Hector

[ChibiToastExplosion]

While playing FE7 again on HHM, I noticed something eerie about Hector:

Great unit early on, good unit middle of the game, and dead weight for a few chapters due to low speed, low movement, and the sheer fact that you have other better promoted units by this point and giving him more EXP and combat time is a waste. He also promotes 3 chapters before Endgame

JUST LIKE ROY

Who is a good unit early on, great unit in the middle of the game, and dead weight for a few chapters due to low defense, low movement, and the sheer fact that you have other, better promoted units by this point and giving him more EXP and combat time is a waste. He also promotes 3 chapters before Endgame.

The only real difference is that Hector is universally loved and Roy is not so much (For the record, I LOVE Roy's game and his handicaps from a strategy point of view, and character point of view).

I don't want to argue that Roy is a better Lord than Hector, but I would like to point out that Roy should get a lot less hate than he does by a lot of fans.

[Crysta]

In all seriousness, I've never had a problem with Hector's speed (whose growth is only a whooping 5% less than Roy's?), and the rest of his growths are pretty stellar while Roy's look pretty... middling.

But I haven't actually played most of FE 6, so take it with a grain of salt, I guess.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

In all seriousness, I've never had a problem with Hector's speed (whose growth is only a whooping 5% less than Roy's?), and the rest of his growths are pretty stellar while Roy's look pretty... middling.

But I haven't actually played most of FE 6, so take it with a grain of salt, I guess.

Yes - you're right in the fact that Hector does gain a lot in one very important stat - defense. Roy's thing is Luck, which is useful in a very luck poor game.

Hector's speed is always good enough not to get doubled by most things, but often not good enough to double anything other than soldiers and generals by the time he's ready to promote. He's still a good unit with uses (Like Roy) but I'm always lost when people argue Hector being one of the best lords ever.

That's like saying Aaron is one of the best units in RD just because he's one of the only Dawn brigade characters with any defense at all. A bit of a stretch, I know.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

fun fact, roy's growths are similar to eliwood's, Roy just removes 5% of eliwood's str, speed, and defense i believe (i could be wrong here) and adds that 15% to his luck growth

[Crysta]

Hector's speed is always good enough not to get doubled by most things, but often not good enough to double anything other than soldiers and generals by the time he's ready to promote.

When you have the highest STR growth and one of the highest DEF growths in the game you may not even have to worry much about that lol.

Maybe you shouldn't like... throw him at sages or valkyries, but otherwise?

EDIT: oh wait derp Dart has higher STR growth, but who cares?

Edited June 1, 2015 by Crysta

[Lord Raven]

Roy is pretty dead weight through most of FE6, I'm not sure how you can reach the conclusion that he suddenly becomes dead weight.

Roy's first chapter is pretty much tailored to all the Sword users (poor Bors, not like it would salvage him much anyway). The second chapter, less so. Then we start seeing a bunch of lance users where he's pretty unbearable until you hit the Isles, aside from like Chapter 5.

In the isles he's good again, because of the # of axe users, but after that you start to hit a bunch of Lance users again. It doesn't help that you only get two Rapiers who have effectively 12 Might against the Cavs that use lances - except Roy's strength is not amazing (it's okay I guess) and enemies are still pretty powerful and bulky.

Hector would thrive more in Roy's situation, at any rate. That is to say, Roy is one of the worst lords in the series (although even then he's basically "mediocre at best")

Edited June 1, 2015 by Lord Raven

[ChibiToastExplosion]

When you have the highest STR growth and one of the highest DEF growths in the game you may not even have to worry much about that lol.

Maybe you shouldn't like... throw him at sages or valkyries, but otherwise?

Haha, I never do that, although he actually makes one of the best mage killers due to his brutal strength and OHKO.

Lacking a hammer/Wolf Beil though in Hard Mode, other characters are much better general killers (ironically, those sages and valkeries). Never want to argue that Hector is a bad unit, but like Roy it's wise to just not use him no matter how awesome he is unless no one else needs EXP. And that is never the case. Both lords hit LV 20 and are poor combat choices just because other characters can use the same battles to better themselves.

Those late promotions are just not ideal - one Lord is hated for it, and the other one gets a free pass and I'm not sure that's appropriate.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

Roy is pretty dead weight through most of FE6, I'm not sure how you can reach the conclusion that he suddenly becomes dead weight.

...

Hector would thrive more in Roy's situation, at any rate. That is to say, Roy is one of the worst lords in the series (although even then he's basically "mediocre at best")

I never found Roy to be absolutely useless - he's great as a 'cleaning unit' to pick off already weakened enemies while another unit does something more important. He just plays a different role. SoS in general is a harder game, period. Hector's route changes in favor of Hector in that it places much more lance users than normal.

According to Roy, a victory at the cost of an ally is no victory at all. I'm okay with him not being a one man wrecking crew, because it drives home the philosophy that your other characters are just as important, if not more important than the Lord through gameplay. Never was the argument that Roy is better than Hector per say, just that he gets more blame for some of the same issues that Hector does face.

[Lord Raven]

Roy is pretty terrible. He has Eliwood's base stats in a game with more lance users and much tougher enemies, and last I checked Eliwood was nothing special until promotion (where he still wasn't much of anything special, but at least he had a horse). A lot of units can pick off enemies too, but the difference is that they command more control over the weapon triangle, are much stronger, faster, more durable, or all three at once after they get a few more levels. He even has a hard time doing much damage on his own.

"Cleaning up" is something Lugh can do and he turns out more useful. I'd rather also give those kills to a Cavalier, Thany, or even Deke/Rutger because their stats are much higher than Roy's when they are better, and the Cavaliers/Thany can provide significantly more utility due to their class.

Hector's at least matched up with Lance users at the start and throughout the game, and he commands the weapon triangle in his favor in said chapters. There aren't many sword chapters, and he can kill Mages/Axe users pretty handily while doing a ton more damage to them. As I said though, if Roy and Hector were swapped, Hector would be significantly better and Roy would actually be worse than Eliwood by a long shot.

It just doesn't help Roy's case at all that the Rapier is a 5 mt weapon.

I'm aware you're not arguing Roy > Hector, but the difference between both units is pretty large, and Roy never "drops" off in the first place. He's already pretty far down. If anything, if you put some resources into Roy (some levels mainly), he's pretty useful for Chapter 24 because the Sword of Seals is pretty powerful and he can use Durandal in case you ever need that for whatever reason, whereas Hector really doesn't get much better after his drop off. Roy's endgame is much better than Hector's by far. Up until then though, Hector's far better in his game - FAR better - than Roy is in FE6.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

I'm aware you're not arguing Roy > Hector, but the difference between both units is pretty large, and Roy never "drops" off in the first place. He's already pretty far down. If anything, if you put some resources into Roy (some levels mainly), he's pretty useful for Chapter 24 because the Sword of Seals is pretty powerful and he can use Durandal in case you ever need that for whatever reason, whereas Hector really doesn't get much better after his drop off. Roy's endgame is much better than Hector's by far. Up until then though, Hector's far better in his game - FAR better - than Roy is in FE6.

That pretty much sums it up, though. I know Roy isn't as good as Hector, but as I've said SoS is a harder game in general. Stick Hector in SoS with all those lances and have just as much fun with his hit rate, even with the triangle advantage. Even if the Lords were the same character, same stats, same weapons, the lord in SoS is going to perform worse than the one in BS. Eliwood was nothing special in his game engine, but he wasn't awful. Roy wouldn't have been so bad in Hector's game, especially on Eliwoods route.

SoS just brings a lot of fun things to the table that Hector never had to deal with.

Both Lords have super late, problematic promotions. Eliwood doesn't get a free pass in his story, either. I have never been wowed by Hector on any mode other than normal, and I have never felt Roy was truly useless.

[Lord Raven]

It's not hard to make a hack that does precisely what you are talking about, but the Wolf Beil has something like 33 effective might against Lance using Cavaliers (and 27 against the Sword using variety), on top of not being in trouble at all when he's out in the open due to his superior durability. Hector's durability makes up for any accuracy issues; an Iron Axe has just as much accuracy against your typical Lance user as an Iron Sword. Neither will be doubling much if at all until the endgame. This helps out in the midgame as well as Chapters like Chapter 4 where Roy's kind of sitting on his hands with that 12/15 might Rapier. Wolf Beil/Rapier accuracy is also a wash against the Lance using variety, whereas the Wolf Beil is at a distinct disadvantage in this instance but it's not as big of a deal because it's a MUCH greater return (almost a factor of 2) for the decreased accuracy, and you're probably using Marcus/Cavalier/Thany against those bastards anyway.

The Isles and Chapter 1 are where Roy has a distinct advantage. Everywhere else I'd rather have Hector.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Lord Raven

[dondon151]

I have never felt Roy was truly useless.

are we playing the same game

roy is terrible. he doesn't double basically at all, he doesn't do good damage per hit, and he has survival problems. if hector were in place of roy, at least he would do better damage per hit and not have survival problems against physical enemies.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

are we playing the same game

roy is terrible. he doesn't double basically at all, he doesn't do good damage per hit, and he has survival problems. if hector were in place of roy, at least he would do better damage per hit and not have survival problems against physical enemies.

Why doesn't everyone rage on Eliwood so much? Maybe they do, but Roy is a punching bag for as much as his late promotion as his own game engine trips him up.

SoS is a favorite of mine and I play it fairly often compared to other games in the series. Somehow I still love Roy and don't think he's useless. Crazy, huh?

Hector is good. I have admitted as much. But he does have parallels to Roy, and the whole purpose of the topic was to point them out. Roy gets ALL the hate for late promotions, not being a Sigurd/Ike, etc. while Hector is oft-seen as an overpowered Lord when he has his own problems to deal with. Some of these problems are the same as Roy's, but I never see anyone whine about Hector's late promotion even though you are forced to haul him around and not use him unless you want to waste XP.

I think the no. 1 reason for this is that there are far less capture the throne chapters, so Hector can be on his own and not have to catch up to everyone, and the smaller maps in BS.

[Lord Raven]

I really like SoS too but bear with me.

Roy has almost no parallels to Hector anyway, you're really just making it up. You can love a character and still think he's bad, but to think Roy and Eliwood are shit on because they're not Sigurd/Ike is nothing short of naive. Marth is a much more effective lord in FE3/12, and Leif is significantly more effective in FE5 than Roy in FE6. I'd even take FE8 Eirika over FE6 Roy.

Roy would be basically a poor unit if he weren't a lord, because he doesn't have any redeeming qualities. You can go through and list something good every single lord has (and in some cases, paragraphs), but you can't really say anything about Roy. In fact, his only really redeeming quality is that he's a sword user that's force on you for the Isles and the Sword of Seals is very very good.

It's a shame the Rapier has only 5 mt which is affected by WTA because if the Rapier had like 8 might he'd be more useful.

All the hate for late promotions makes perfect sense. He only has that promotion for 3 full chapters, by that point most units have surpassed him by a great amount. Ephraim/Eirika has them for like 5 for reference, but at least they're up to par with the units around them due to their good stats. Ike's promotion comes at a perfect time, Seliph promotes quickly and becomes incredible after promotion, Leif's promotion doesn't matter as much because enemy stats are low, Micaiah sucks anyway, FE10 Ike's promotion comes before Part 4 when he's incredibly strong statistically to begin with, FE9 Ike's promotion comes a little bit past the midpoint of the game (which I think was the perfect promotion time), and while Marth doesn't promote he either has a higher level cap, higher base stats than his contemporaries (FE3/12), or he's in a game with relatively weak enemies (FE1/3 and like up to H2 of FE11). You can't possibly think that Roy's late promotion isn't that big a deal.

Hector's late promotion is why he drops off towards the end. Nobody is denying this. Hector's not known to be a phenomenal lord, but he at least has combat and durability through most of the game, and he'd even retain that if he were in FE6 (but he still wouldn't be as good as his contemporaries - but he'd still have a much longer window of usefulness).

Edited October 25, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Magical Glace]

Roy's decent early (because weapon triangle), outright bad midgame, and steps it up slightly after he promotes thanks to good-enough promo gains and the Binding Blade's OP-ness

Hector's more balanced throughout.

[Junkhead]

Why doesn't everyone rage on Eliwood so much? Maybe they do, but Roy is a punching bag for as much as his late promotion as his own game engine trips him up.

Because Eliwood is on a significantly easier, you don't have to baby him throughout all of the game only to have him Seize. You basically have to do that with Roy, he's never really good, decent or even PASSABLE. He's pretty much deadweight, and the only reason he's not terrendabad is because he has access to Rapiers (everyone else is doing scraps to Cavaliers, in Ch.4).

Hector's never amazing, either. But probably solid at worst. He 2HKO's most enemies, tends to have either WTA or neutrality against enemies, has great durability, 1HKO's some enemies with Wolf Beil. But, like you said, he's kind of iffy at Late/Endgame. He has low Mov and is sluggish.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Soul~!

[dondon151]

I never see anyone whine about Hector's late promotion even though you are forced to haul him around and not use him unless you want to waste XP.

you must be looking in the wrong places

people hate on eliwood a lot too, but he's in an easier game and FE7 gives you early defense chapters which are basically grind sessions, so eliwood catches up faster.

[Junkhead]

It's also worth mentioning, Eliwood gets a horse and Lances upon promotion. He's really not that bad.

[A2ZOMG]

It's also worth mentioning, Eliwood gets a horse and Lances upon promotion. He's really not that bad.

Promoted Eliwood can rescue promoted Oswin ftw. Also the Rapier in FE7 is also waaaaaay better, and you actually need that to kill some bosses in a few chapters. Uhai off the top of my head is nonsense to beat without Eliwood, nobody else is nearly as reliable for finishing him off.

[TheRepeat]

Who is a good unit early on, great unit in the middle of the game, and dead weight for a few chapters due to low defense, low movement, and the sheer fact that you have other, better promoted units by this point and giving him more EXP and combat time is a waste. He also promotes 3 chapters before Endgame.

Calling Roy a 'great unit' at any point is a stretch. Sure, he can OHKO the final boss, but he's not even the only one.

I've beaten FE6 three times, and there has been at least one point each time where I've asked "god please why can't I just bench Roy I wanna put in [character]." Paraphrased of course.

Hector has completely different strengths (read: he actually has strengths) that make him a good unit, maybe even great if the RNG loves you. I'm not saying Hector's amazing, but comparing him to Roy is a pretty big stretch, I think.

According to Roy, a victory at the cost of an ally is no victory at all. I'm okay with him not being a one man wrecking crew, because it drives home the philosophy that your other characters are just as important, if not more important than the Lord through gameplay.

Sure sure, it works from a story standpoint, and it's totally cool if you like Roy anyway; I love playing as Robin in Smash Bros, and she's definitely not that great. I'm just saying that Roy is statistical trash compared to Hector. :)

[MCProductions]

I love how people call Roy "the worst lord in the series" while I usually end up with Lyn 2.0, By which I mean unhittable dodgetank

Roy, by his game's standards anyway, has good growths, but his game's maps take so flipping long at times that while Hector has the same problems, it doesn't seem as long.

I honestly don't see Roy as the worst lord in the series, but my opinions aren't usually agreed with here so...... take that with a grain of salt. Yes, I've played each FE, and I see Roy as second worst

As to why people don't complain about Hector having similer problems, nostalgia bias and the existance of his axes.

Watch me be flamed for thinking Roy is only the second worst Lord in the series

[Just call me AL]

Watch me be flamed for thinking Roy is only the second worst Lord in the series

You're not the only one who thinks that.

[Radiant Dragon]

From what I understood, Hector's biggest draw aside from his uniqueness (first lord that used Axes, first that specialized in Str/Def aside from Spd) is the fact that he doesn't die to a sneeze at the beginning like most of the other lords before him. He has a statistical advantage early on, which is when it's most important. He also retains this past the midpoint of the game due to FE7's weak enemies.

Also the Rapier in FE7 is also waaaaaay better, and you actually need that to kill some bosses in a few chapters. Uhai off the top of my head is nonsense to beat without Eliwood, nobody else is nearly as reliable for finishing him off.

Marcus is really good at killing Uhai due to that Silver Lance, actually. He'll have better defensive parameters as well. I've also killed him with Matthew equipped with a Silver Sword, but that was a draft and I don't recommend doing that on a typical playthrough.

[Katie]

You can also kill Uhai by having Lyn and Hector gang up on them with Mani Katti/Wolf Beil. Just make sure Uhai has his Longbow equipped, because you do not want to deal with his Killing Edge.

Also, Roy and Eliwood have EXTREMELY similar bases and growths, to the point where if you put them in each other's game, they'd fare just as well as the other one did. The reason Roy gets hated on while Eliwood doesn't for the most part is that Eliwood's game is much easier, so he's more useful there.

[momogeek2141]

Also Roy promotes AT THE END OF THE DAMN GAME!