How good or bad are axes in FE6...

[ping]

...compared to other weapon types in this game and compared to axes in other Fire Emblem games?

Since this discussion seems to take over several other topics, I might as well try and give it an own thread: How good or bad are axes as a weapon type in FE6?

Quite a few arguments have been thrown around in on other threads - right now I remembered and found Lord Raven's answer in an advice topic for a FE6 first-timer and several users (including myself) deranging a thread about a possible secondary weapon type for Roy.

My stance on this can be found somewhere behind the second link, but to repeat it where it belongs: I'd say that the low accuracy of axes (and the lack of forges or 2nd-tier hand axes) make them weaker than they are in other games with higher hit rates in general. Being axelocked is hardly any issue in PoR, but in this game you'll want higher accuracy via weapon stats and/or the weapon triangle.

That said, large portions of the game are filled with lance users, be it the soldiers and knights in the earlygame or the wyvern riders/lords later. Having the option to wield an axe to increase the damage (without lowering the accuracy, btw) and decrease the risk of being hit is very valuable.

To quote myself about the question of accuracy:

I just wanted to throw out that both the iron axe and the hand axe have only 5 less hit than their lance counterparts. Killer and Silver is a bit worse (10 points difference) and specialized axes (Brave, Halberd, Hammer) really are way less accurate than the respective lances/swords, but in most cases the lower accuracy of axes compared to lances can be offset by the weapon triangle.

Axes having 50-60 Hit Rate with WTA is unacceptable (this is enemies in the ARENA)

So since we're talking iron tier hier, a lance user (with identical stats) would have 45-55 hit (+5 because of the iron lance's stats, -10 because no WTA) and deal 2 points less damage (1 because the lance is weaker, 1 because no WTA).

A sword user would have the same hitrate (+20 because weapon stats, -20 because WTD instead of WTA) and deal 5 points less damage (-3 points because weaon stats, -2 points because weapon triangle).

One last point in favour of axe users is their access to a 1-2 ranged weapon. The hand axe does have pretty bad stats, but weakening the enemies during their phase does make the clean-up in the following player phase easier, even if not every attack hit in EP.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

So bad that swords still have better hitrate against lances despite weapon triangle disadvantage than axes.

Lot is the only locked axe user who's usable in earlygame against soldiers.

After chapter 8 you don't need him anymore because it's "sword" and "magic emblem" from now on.

Best axe user is Dieck, a mercenary. He's the only one I've ever seen >90% hitrate with steel and hand axes.

FE6 is the most hostile game to axe and lance users.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Ayama Wirdo

[ruadath]

Lot is the only locked axe user who's usable in earlygame against soldiers.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. Wade can easily handle soldiers in the first few chapters he's deployed (Chapter 2, 3 and 5), with decent hit rates, and the soldiers usually suck enough that he can still double them.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I'm pretty sure that in hard mode base speed Wade can't even double iron lance soldiers.

Lot can, though. (the reason why I excluded him)

[ruadath]

In hard mode, I think he usually double the soldiers at base (because they get weighed down by their terrible Con) unless they happen to proc higher than normal amounts of Spd.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Yeah, steel lance and javelin soldiers will get doubled for sure.

As for iron lance soldiers I think they can have up to 4 speed in HM (probably not in ch. 2 + 3. yet), so they still have enough AS despite penalty not to get doubled by Wade with base speed.

[Gradivus.]

After chapter 8 you don't need him anymore because it's "sword" and "magic emblem" from now on.

FE6 isn't that much of a sword emblem after the western isles, lots of enemies have lances so swords are roughly as accurate as axes and have -5 damage, which can easily make the difference between a 1-2RKO and a 3-4RKO, especially when doubling.

Axelock is still subpar because the western isles are an exp mine and they aren't great there (but it's possible to train them if you want to, the early Paladins leave enemy fighters at low HP on HM), but axes in general are still useful against all the lance spam you're faced with.

The early mages are really good with proper training but you'll only have one promoted up to that point and without terrain tiles they aren't going to survive multiple enemies safely (whereas promoted axe users have much better def and WTA).

Edited September 28, 2016 by Gradivus.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Tbf I forgot to mention that Ilia is ok for axe users since the pegasus knights have lots of AS penalty.

[Jedi]

Axes are ok at best, but they are good against 3 common enemy types, Soldiers, Generals and Wyverns, so they do have their uses. Just don't expect them to do well against much else in particular.

[wissenschaft]

Axes are so bad that even with Echidna boosting her skill with secret books to 26, shes still rather inaccurate. Try using any other Axe user and their skill is going to be like half that value. So yeah, prepare to miss and miss a lot. Don't even bother attacking without weapon advantage.

Axes are SO much better in FE 7, its not even funny. Its a combination of 10% more hit rate for most axes and lower avoid values on enemies thanks to lower speed.

Edited September 28, 2016 by wissenschaft

[Magical Glace]

Compared to FE7, the FE6 enemies are stronger and the hit rates axes possess are lower. A few axe users (ie Gonzales) have low skill as well, though this obviously does not apply to everyone.

All this put together has the unfortunate consequence of axes tending to produce less than reliable hit rates. I can't say I like using them.

[X-Naut]

So bad that swords still have better hitrate against lances despite weapon triangle disadvantage than axes.

Best axe user is Dieck, a mercenary. He's the only one I've ever seen >90% hitrate with steel and hand axes.

FE6 is the most hostile game to axe and lance users.

These two points come about due to the class bias in base Skill; most axe classes have 1 or 2 while Mercenaries have 8. WTA axes break even with WTD swords.

Also, let's not forget about FE4 where you either go Brave or go home.

=====

Many people exaggerate the issues with axes (and Weight issues applies to all Steel/effective weapons), but hit chances are a real problem if you aren't fighting a lance. If you want high all-around accuracy with them you need to stack Hit supports. As I said above the base axe users get this the worst since they tend to have low base Skill or other personal problems. Your best options are units that gain them on promotion (Paladins, Mercs/Heroes), or if you want a base axe user then Lot has a serviceable start and Gonzales is the Fun^TM option on Hard Mode.

[Jedi]

FE6 is the most hostile game to axe and lance users.

Could be FE3 Book 2 where you get no Axe users at all and get Silver Axes purely for their sell value.

[TempestStorm]

Axes aren't bad but aren't great. And fe6 is nowhere near "sword emblem", that's just swords being more useful for about a 3 chapter sprint where axes don't get wtd.

Hand axes are fairly op in the right hands (aka not Gonz/Garrett/Bartre), and more useful overall than javelins (you're not EXPECTING the hand axe to hit the two sword users in the middle of a bunch of ranged enemies).

[Jotari]

Perceval is a pretty awesome axe user if I remember rightly...I've only just realised how odd it is for him to even be an axe user. Guess they were throwing axes a bone by giving it to all the Paladins. Full weapon triangle isn't something they had outside of Elibe.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Jotari

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

And fe6 is nowhere near "sword emblem", that's just swords being more useful for about a 3 chapter sprint where axes don't get wtd.

At least it's "sword emblem" against the bosses.

Most bosses are made to be beaten by Rutger.

Since they have ridiculous high evasion, axes and lances don't work on them in most cases.

I'd say Miledy, Alance with support and a high skilled Dieck are the non sword users who have decent hitrate against very few bosses.

Could be FE3 Book 2 where you get no Axe users at all and get Silver Axes purely for their sell value.

Tbf I haven't played this game yet.

These two points come about due to the class bias in base Skill; most axe classes have 1 or 2 while Mercenaries have 8. WTA axes break even with WTD swords.

Also, let's not forget about FE4 where you either go Brave or go home.

The low base skill is the problem of the fighter / bandit class in general. That's the reason why it's my second least favorite class after knight. Low skill combined with low accuracy makes it superhard to be trained.

.

Also it's rarely to see >80% hitrate with any fighter or Gonzales unless the enemy is a knight, peg. knight or a soldier. And soldiers only appear till chapter 8 and pegasus knight mainly appear in Ilia which requires to use Thany / Tate more (which isn't a bad thing though).

As for chapter 21 Lugh with aircalibur is your best friend. Letting him in the thicket works to solo all the dracoknights / -lords.

Also I found Lex and Master Knights way more usable with steel axe than in any FE6 locked axe user.

[TempestStorm]

Anybody can beat the bosses. Rutger literally just has the most reliability.

Fe6 Sadist (which I need to finish but working a ton) featured Chad killing all the bosses until Geese picked up.

[Shadow Mir]

I don't like axes in this game for the reasons Glace mentioned, among others (those being that it takes F.O.R.E.V.E.R to get the units that'd actually have the Skill to hit with axes to a decent rank, as they need to promote to use them, and generally only being good against lance users).

Edited September 29, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Carmine Sword]

Even though axes are inaccurate, I feel that their accuracy issues have been overstated. Mid to late game is full of lances and I think axes have a bad rap more due to unpromoted axe dudes in this game being bad as opposed to axes themselves. Marcus and Zealot do just fine with axes for example.

[Yojinbo]

Axes are OK as long as a unit isn't axelocked. Promoted Alance, Percival, Marcus, Zealot and Echidna are enough to do the job and use an axe whenever it's useful. Axelock really sucks though.

FE4 and FE5 are much harder on axe users than FE6.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Yojinbo

[Shadow Mir]

Axes are OK as long as a unit isn't axelocked. Promoted Alance, Percival, Marcus, Zealot and Echidna are enough to do the job and use an axe whenever it's useful. Axelock really sucks though.

FE4 and FE5 are much harder on axe users than FE6.

What about FE5 makes it harder on axe users than FE6?

[Cornguy]

FE4 and FE5 are much harder on axe users than FE6.

I respectfully disagree. Axes may have horrible weight, but the majority of axe users in FE4 don't have pursuit anyways. Lex does just fine, and with the Hero axe, negates the lack of double hitting. I will say that in second gen, I almost entirely drop axes.

Maybe I don't know enough about FE5, but Othin has always been one of my most used characters at least for early game. Pugi and Wrath are just very good.

In FE6 though, all of the units specializing in axes are statistically defecient in one way or another, and units with axes as a secondary weapon are usually better off using something else.

[Jotari]

Axes are OK as long as a unit isn't axelocked. Promoted Alance, Percival, Marcus, Zealot and Echidna are enough to do the job and use an axe whenever it's useful. Axelock really sucks though.

FE4 and FE5 are much harder on axe users than FE6.

Don't know what you mean for FE5. Pugi is one of the best weapons in the entire series.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Brave axe and especially Pugi are fucking amazing.

And FE4 axe users are still more accurate against axes and lances than the ones in FE6.

I didn't get the brave axe for Lex in my first FE4 run and he still was usuable, way more usable than any FE6 locked axe user.

[Troykv]

So... The problem are the higher evasion, the low skill and the True Hit?