Randoman Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) Why is practically everyone assuming Lucina will be better than Marth in SSB4? I mean, sure, Marth seemed heavily nerfed in the demo builds. Though assuming that Lucina will be better simply from trailer footage and what Sakurai's revealed about her is hardly enough to conclude Lucina will be better than him. If she was playable in the demos, that'd be much more understandable, but judging her strength solely based on Sakurai's words and game footage is hardly solid enough in terms of coming to that conclusion. For all we know, Lucina could have landing lag problems just like Marth does. Or maybe she'll be even worse in tournament play/in general due to her lack of a tipper making her finishing/KO moves really weak compared to other characters. Either way, we don't know for sure yet, but having so many people spout out that Lucina is better than Marth is just ridiculous. Besides, back in the Brawl release era, everyone was saying Marth was heavily nerfed competitive-wise as well because of his range decrease and lower non-tipped power. That turned out to be quite an exaggeration, since Marth was still quite good in Brawl competitively and still ranked high on the tier lists. There was also so many people saying that Lucas was better than Ness in Brawl and kept shoving it down everyone's throats when either Lucas or Ness was mentioned. Though later on down the line, it turned out to be the exact opposite tier list wise. Keep in mind, I'm hardly a fan of the competitive scene and tier lists. Though I think both anti/neutral-tourney and Smash Back Room people can agree that coming up with tiers or "who is better than who" this early (or even before the game is released like most people were doing ever since Lucina's reveal) is really ridiculous. Edited September 12, 2014 by Randoman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) People might think Lucina will be better because she seems to play the way Marth used to. The fast fighter thing. But her lack of a tipper will probably still balance her out and not make her as broken as the old Marth. Plus Marth will still have more power and more weight overall even if he's a bit slower. Edited September 12, 2014 by Anacybele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 i think they'll be about the same, honestly. it'll be high tier lucina marth mid tier robin low tier ike speed is almost always the name of the game. if you aren't speedy, you're probably not going past c/c+. i can say that with some certainty because ssb4 looks a lot like brawl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 SSB4 has some different mechanics and faster gameplay pace though. I don't think the tier list will be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komeiji Koishi Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) who are you to assume I think lucina is better. >_> something something speed, something something comboing and being able to dominate the close range, something something that was marth's game style in ssbm and ssbb, something something "marth doesn't have any of the speed he had before in the demo therefore he's nerfed to shit" I thought that Sakurai was going to make sure that the differences between everyone was going to be a minimum, though, so I don't really see (what I assume they'll be like when it comes out) "slightly-weaker but slightly-faster lucina having a major edge over slightly-stronger but a bit slower Marth" is apparently a thing wait a minute the game isn't even out yet and people are already arguing over this? Jesus man. >_> Edited September 12, 2014 by Faraam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassyWolf Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I've already posted this on Shins topic but I'll just put this link here again. This is a guy who is comparing Lucina to Marth: http://smashboards.com/threads/lucina-moveset-data-analysis-thread.367457/ He has still to find real differences in speed or strength when I posted this, the only thing really is the tipper. This makes me worried about Lucina lacking the tipper hitbox and thus having shorter range than Marth and ending up as a slightly inferior clone of Marth. This is all speculation and I could be completely wrong. So, so far I think Marth will be better off the impressions I've gotten... I just wish Lucina was less of a clone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I've already posted this on Shins topic but I'll just put this link here again. This is a guy who is comparing Lucina to Marth: http://smashboards.com/threads/lucina-moveset-data-analysis-thread.367457/ He has still to find real differences in speed or strength when I posted this, the only thing really is the tipper. This makes me worried about Lucina lacking the tipper hitbox and thus having shorter range than Marth and ending up as a slightly inferior clone of Marth. This is all speculation and I could be completely wrong. So, so far I think Marth will be better off the impressions I've gotten... I just wish Lucina was less of a clone. sakurai only said that lucina lacked the tipper mechanic. he didn't say anything about her range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassyWolf Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 sakurai only said that lucina lacked the tipper mechanic. he didn't say anything about her range. I'm by no means an expert on this so I'm not entirely sure, but doesen't the tipper hitbox give Marth a bit of extra range? I'm acctually asking this because I'm not sure, if it desen't, and she is thus even more simmilar to Marth (what is known and told thus far), I fail to see what else Lucina is exept a Marth alt on training wheels... and I really hope she is more than that because then I don't really see why she got her own spot in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 SSB4 has some different mechanics and faster gameplay pace though. I don't think the tier list will be the same. [spoiler=Peach nerfs] That alone does not affect the tier list, of course. Peach went from #6 to #19 (transition from Melee to Brawl), and that didn't have much to do with the different mechanics + physics. It was because of her nerfs! - Height of middair jump lowered (became *the shortest*) - Peach Bomber went from fire to hearts - Down Smash nerfed in every single aspect (KO Power. Went from one of the best to arguably one of the worst). - Can no longer double jump cancel. And wow, I thought PEACH was hit hard, but Jigglypuff & Captain Falcon... I think the tier list will be generally the same, along with nerfs and buffs of characters. If Lucina's sword is the same range as Marth, I'd assume she to be worse than Marth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I'm by no means an expert on this so I'm not entirely sure, but doesen't the tipper hitbox give Marth a bit of extra range? I'm acctually asking this because I'm not sure, if it desen't, and she is thus even more simmilar to Marth (what is known and told thus far), I fail to see what else Lucina is exept a Marth alt on training wheels... and I really hope she is more than that because then I don't really see why she got her own spot in the first place. once again, sakurai only said she lacks the tipper mechanic. that being that the tip gives more power. probably not related to the actual range at all. also i could see lucina being more than marth on training wheels, since her attacks aren't THAT weak, but marth's without the tipper are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HK Motendra Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) once again, sakurai only said she lacks the tipper mechanic. that being that the tip gives more power. probably not related to the actual range at all. also i could see lucina being more than marth on training wheels, since her attacks aren't THAT weak, but marth's without the tipper are. He also said that she's a little shorter than Marth Edited September 12, 2014 by The King Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James McCloud Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 It seems like Lucina will be a potentially better fighter. It seems like the lack of tipper and her speed will make her an in-your-face type of fighter. As for who is actually better, we'll just have to wait and see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Kamina Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I've heard that Lucina moves faster than Marth, but that may be incorrect. I do think movement speed is a very valuable in a game like Smash Bros. But it remains to be see how the two compare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassyWolf Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 He also said that she's a little shorter than Marth I honestly can't see the hight difference... they seem kinda the same, I know what Sakurai said but it almost feels like a pixels difference I've heard that Lucina moves faster than Marth, but that may be incorrect. I do think movement speed is a very valuable in a game like Smash Bros. But it remains to be see how the two compare. I posted a link eatlier in the same topic of a guy on smashboards whoo are comparing the 2... he has yet to find differences outside of the tipper, yes he has said that the speed is the same and the damage output is so simmilar you barely notice it (about 1-2%). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HK Motendra Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 (edited) I honestly can't see the hight difference... they seem kinda the same, I know what Sakurai said but it almost feels like a pixels difference From comparing the two in PotDs I'd agree with you too there. My interpretation is maybe having slightlly smaller range? But with the post that you showed, I'm so sure if thats the case Edited September 17, 2014 by The King Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inui Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 (edited) Marth is horrible. Lucina will probably be better. Ike is fine. Robin is widely considered one of the best in the game already. Besides, back in the Brawl release era, everyone was saying Marth was heavily nerfed competitive-wise as well because of his range decrease and lower non-tipped power. That turned out to be quite an exaggeration, since Marth was still quite good in Brawl competitively and still ranked high on the tier lists. Yes, but now Marth was nerfed more from his already nerfed form in Brawl. That would suggest that he's just some mid tier now. Edited September 14, 2014 by Red Fox of Fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randoman Posted September 14, 2014 Author Share Posted September 14, 2014 Marth is horrible. Lucina will probably be better. Ike is fine. Robin is widely considered one of the best in the game already. And again, people proclaim that Lucina is better than Marth without any links or evidence whatsoever. At least something like a link to a "gameplay impressions thread" from someone who has the final build, side by side video comparisons, or links quoting Sakurai would suffice. If Lucina is actually better than Marth and we've actually got thorough data to back it up, fair enough (and Sakurai already mentioned downloadable balance patches will be implemented). But everyone shoving down people's throats that Lucina is better than Marth months before SSB4 was out is ridiculous. People spouting that this soon after the game's release, less so, but it should still be given more time and testing before coming to any conclusions. Yes, but now Marth was nerfed more from his already nerfed form in Brawl. That would suggest that he's just some mid tier now. And a lot of those conclusions about him being nerfed were from the demo builds, which were probably 1-2 months behind the build that was current during E3. Lucina and Robin were revealed in a trailer around the end of July. So that's around 2-3 months of development time between then to change up game balance. And seeing how Sakurai said the last part of development before release is debugging/fixing things, Marth could've easily been fixed up. Also, for those that forgot this, I'll link it to you again: “Lucina uses the same techniques as Marth, a fighter with whom I’m sure most of you are already familiar. I even went so far as to make their strength, speed, and special attacks almost identical.However, what sets Lucina apart is the fact that the strength of her attacks is uniform along the blade. Marth’s playstyle emulates the elegant swordplay of a fencer by dealing more damage when he strikes with the tip of his blade, but the damage Lucina deals is evened out. Thus, I think that Lucina will be much easier than Marth for novice players to play with.” Even if Lucina is better than Marth, it won't be by a ridiculous amount like everyone else has been saying. And Sakurai said the quoted after the demo build was out and completed, so I highly doubt that Sakurai kept Marth as weakened as he was in the SSB4 demos while making Lucina as ridiculously powerful as everyone thinks she is mainly from her trailer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) Lucina and Marth will probably tie. The tipper is literally the only difference. See. Basically, Lucina gets a bit more damage and knockback when Marth doesn't tip, and a bit less when he does. If one beats the other at all, it will be by a slight margin, unless tipping ends up being some huge game changer in the competitive scene. Edited September 14, 2014 by Red Fox of Fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HK Motendra Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 To see it for yourself, have a look at this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inui Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 dude I know a ton of pro players who imported and they've already been playing the real game to death most of them say Marth is nerfed on the real build Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HF Makalov Fanboy Kai Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 dude I know a ton of pro players who imported and they've already been playing the real game to death most of them say Marth is nerfed on the real build alright, source? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ema Skye Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Having seen Lucina and Marth comparisions on Smashboards, I can tell you guys this. The two are literally the same character aside from damage dealt and knockback received. Lucina outdamages all of Marth's non-tipper hits by 1-2%. Tipper Marth hits outdamage Lucina by 1-2%. That's the entire damage difference there. In terms of knockback, the same rule applies. Non-tipper Marth is the weakest. Lucina is the middle and tipped Marth is the strongest. Due to this, Marth can be seen as a riskier play, as he not only has the potential for the highest damage, but also the lowest. Lucina is a consistent choice. And I think that given Lucina is a more consistent choice, that's why people are considering her to be the better character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euklyd Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Having seen Lucina and Marth comparisions on Smashboards, I can tell you guys this. The two are literally the same character aside from damage dealt and knockback received. Lucina outdamages all of Marth's non-tipper hits by 1-2%. Tipper Marth hits outdamage Lucina by 1-2%. That's the entire damage difference there. In terms of knockback, the same rule applies. Non-tipper Marth is the weakest. Lucina is the middle and tipped Marth is the strongest. Due to this, Marth can be seen as a riskier play, as he not only has the potential for the highest damage, but also the lowest. Lucina is a consistent choice. And I think that given Lucina is a more consistent choice, that's why people are considering her to be the better character. there's something to be said for his tipper being significantly harder to land (than it used to be) as well, isn't there? so he's more of a gamble than he would've been in, say, Brawl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 So all in all its preference. Do you want the safer bet? Or do you want to learn Marths new spacing pretty much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HF Makalov Fanboy Kai Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 now that its confirmed that the difference is so small, i bet the group who thought lucina would be way better feels silly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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