AM/PM 2 Mafia - GAME OVER

[Junk]

Because scum want to keep town messing around as much as possible. Although I feel it could have led us nowhere paranoid scum might be scared that town could get something out of it since everyone would have to give their opinion on it.

@Bluedoom because we would agree with mancer and be like okay yeah 1 kill doesn't matter to much.

I actually think I found what was really really, bugging me about mancers reasoning though. When someone is killed (especially on n0) we lose their thoughts, possibly their role and (on n0) we get no associations. To me discarding as just "oh it doesn't affect the game to much" is scummy because these things benefit town and IMO a kill on n0 benfits scum in every possible way.

[Prims]

@junko: does it matter what type of action targets you?

[Junk]

nope

[j00]

These loudspeakers, man.

"Am not Junko. Courier actions do not count. All others do. Last announcement for now. Prims Junko what are you doing. PS: Mancer scum meta IMO."

Edited April 10, 2015 by j00

[j00]

But wait, there's more coming from the loudspeakers:

"I lied. Had a 1-shot cop that refilled my announcement if it hit scum. I scanned Mancer. Lynch him. PS: Forgot to mention I kill every person who targets me in the process. PPS: I'm gay."

[Prims]

well I wasn't totally sold on scum!Mancer when I made my FoS but now I'm pretty convinced.......

mancer is there a reason you'd scan as mafia?

[Junk]

I'm the not the ITP lol

1. I dunno and nope I have the same wincon as any town player

1a. Where was I paranoid about claiming?

2. You're right about bluedoom towslipping for not knowing if scum could nightkill but not mancer. Mancer never explicitly takes a side saying that they only may be able to nightkill while bluedoom straight out asks "can scum nk"?

3. No since i'm not a vig/sk (really would love to be sk though :( )

[Prims]

???

Is that a response to a courier?

[Bluedoom]

I do not even know what the fuck is going on here.

[Junk]

yeah, guy who made the first announcement contacted me. I'm gutreading this person as town.

[Sunwoo]

A rule has been slightly tweaked. This should not affect anything.

[Eurykins]

o.o

Went off for a few League games, and came back to these announcement shinanegans. What the heck?

> I'm assuming Junko's post in-thread was in response to a message from someone else (guessing courier shizz?)

N0 NK discussion/shinanegans: Most (if not all?) SF Mafia games that start N0 = no night kills, so the fact that people were suddenly making a fuss/wondering about things aloud just because it wasn't originally in the rules seems a bit odd to me (so was moreso eyeing Mancer/Marth interactions and posts as being strange, rather than Junko's (which read as being fine to me)).

@Junko: Is that to imply that the person who first made an announcement =/= the ITP/person who claimed to have scanned Mancer and come up with a scum read/scan on him? (And so would your comment imply a town-sided ITP or...?) I had the feeling that it was the same person making all of the announcements, but that's just me.

[Junk]

@eury sorry don't want to answer that, sorry guys I fucked up and would rather not answer any questions related to that currently

[Bluedoom]

Eurykins can you clarify what you meant about the N0 NK discussion.

You say that eyeing mine/mancer interactions and not eyeing junko's posts was weird but you say junko's posts are fine, so what's wrong here? Also the only one talking about these stuff is the mysterious announcer, so far. So what I mean is, I don't know who you're post is being directed at.

[Eurykins]

Eurykins can you clarify what you meant about the N0 NK discussion.

What I'm saying (in a nutshell):

> Post #10 (Too lazy to ISO surf, so no links for you guys in this post, lol): "Does that mean N0 is a kill night?" This comment strikes me as odd, given the nature of the vast majority (if not every) of the Mafia games I've seen hosted on SF that incorporate a N0 (in the sense of no night kills occurring on N0). Tl;dr: It's generally expected to be a no-night kill phase, and you don't seem like the type of person who'd needlessly ask/wonder about it despite it not being listed in the rules.

> Secondly, this post also read weird to me:

It's not stated on the rules that N0 is a no-kill night though so I believe that kills could still happen. We won't know until phase end though so I suggest we not brood over this at all. This fact also doesn't really help us in any way. So what if the mafia has an extra kill on N0? The game isn't going to be affected much by that fact.

Also, I confirmed with Boron that that announcement was made by one of the players.

> Very non-chalant wrt "a possible extra kill" existing in N0. Doesn't sound like a townie attitude, imo.

> Underlined: So you ask the Mod about the announcement source, but choose not to inquire about the rules or about the night kill existence around N0? Oddly selective with the inquiries, and likewise doesn't really sound townie with the rest of his post/comments.

> This is why I have no issues with Junko's #19 post/reactions to what was said above; I found his posts weird, though I think the term "downplaying" sounds more accurate (as opposed to "diversion/diverting") the N0 NK possibility, as though he were trying to sweep it under the rug (had it been an actual thing/possibility).

> Also, Mancer's #20 post also sounds even worse, as it says nothing more than "Idk what to say, but the set-up speccing is probably no good" (Instead of sitting around saying, "IDK what to talk about", why not ask/prompt/do something TO trigger any sort of conversation flow? Idly standing by doesn't get the ball rolling any faster.)

> Bluedoom's #23 Inquiry: If there's no other discussion happening (as you said), and an idea/conversation that could've plausibly have been bad for scum-side happens, it's not uncommon for someone to try to "kill" the current conversation/point, in lieu of redirecting to someone/something more favorable for them in order to keep things under wrap. This can apply to cases on people, ideas (role/whatever speccing that may potentially out someone, etc), and other things, so I don't see the act itself (in general) as being something scum players wouldn't do.

Hopefully that clears shit up. I'm probs heading to bed in a few minutes 'cause I'm tired n' my roommate also needs to sleep. So I'll be back in a bit.

[Junk]

okay i am clearly a 10/10 mafia player and I understand everything now (this is an apology to the courier). But fuck me for being so tired and me not being able to process basic info >_>

okay i'll shut up and go to bed.

[MancerNecro]

I did not think that speculating whether a N0 kill could take place or not was actually helpful. Regardless of whether or not a N0 kill could happen, talking about it excessively diverts our conversation and discussion from scum hunting. Talking and speculating about the N0 kill doesn't stop it from happening at all hence why I said it did not matter.

Also, I definitely do not scan as scum and I have no idea why anyone would try to implicate me as such. I highly doubt that cop inspection result if only because I do not think that actions can be submitted and results received in the middle of the phase. Also, the first announcement was made by an ITP so who's to say that the announcer isn't trying to get town mislynched?

Will go back and read through the thread again and give my opinions on each player.

[MancerNecro]

One thing that pings me right now is this:

N0 NK discussion/shinanegans: Most (if not all?) SF Mafia games that start N0 = no night kills, so the fact that people were suddenly making a fuss/wondering about things aloud just because it wasn't originally in the rules seems a bit odd to me (so was moreso eyeing Mancer/Marth interactions and posts as being strange, rather than Junko's (which read as being fine to me)).

No one was making a fuss out of anything, really. At that point, all that happened was Bluedoom asking if night kills could still take place on N0 or not and me responding and saying not to talk about that.

You mentioned "wondering about things aloud just because it wasn't originally mentioned in the rules seems a bit odd to me" and that you were "moreso eyeing Mancer/Marth interactions and posts as being strange" but never go around to elaborating on it. Also, since it was Bluedoom who was wondering about the N0 night kill aloud, do you think that makes him scummier in the interaction or not?

I also dislike how Eury handwaved Junko's posts by saying "which read as being fine to me" when this post of Junko actually pings me somewhat:

Because scum want to keep town messing around as much as possible. Although I feel it could have led us nowhere paranoid scum might be scared that town could get something out of it since everyone would have to give their opinion on it.

@Bluedoom because we would agree with mancer and be like okay yeah 1 kill doesn't matter to much.

I actually think I found what was really really, bugging me about mancers reasoning though. When someone is killed (especially on n0) we lose their thoughts, possibly their role and (on n0) we get no associations. To me discarding as just "oh it doesn't affect the game to much" is scummy because these things benefit town and IMO a kill on n0 benfits scum in every possible way.

Why would scum be afraid of town giving an opinion on a topic that diverts the discussion away from themselves? Rather, scum messing around would try to bloat up useless discussion in order to distract town from more important topics.

Also, in response to your last paragraph, yes, we lose someone's opinions (and associations) when someone is killed but we can't prevent their deaths at all by discussing about the existence of the N0 kill. Rather, if we waste time speculating about whether or not the kill could happen, the player who got killed (assuming that we don't know that N0 kills can't happen yet) has less time to contribute content that is actually useful to scum hunting.

While I agree that a N0 kill benefits scum, if the kill is going to happen anyway, talking about it isn't going to help us at all.

Back to Eury: His initial post is hard to read and he takes the same neutral stance about Bluedoom and I in this post. He uses phrases like "strikes me as odd", "read weird" and "sounds even worse" without elaborating further and explaining or concluding whether Bluedoom or I were scummy. Despite his list of opinions, he has done very little scum hunting at all.

##FOS (First Official Serious) FOS: Eurykins

TL:DR version of my reasoning: Despite two posts and listing a lot of his opinions, he hasn't really scum hunted much and his posts seems like more fluff and a distraction than actually being helpful...

With respect to Junko's supposed slipup, I think that that's a null tell for now since both town and scum can make the exact same mistake that he did.

[MRDRHAWK]

guess who just woke up at 4:30 to barf his face off

hint: it me

do not expect content from me for a bit, still feeling icky (probably I'll post content when I've gotten more sleep)

[Elieson]

I fell asleep at 10:30p last night and woke up this morning to a RolePM; I'll catch up in a bit yo

[Blitz]

heya, scum insomniac buddies, looks like I am finally free to drop in, lol

first off, guys, you do realize that FoS stands for finger of suspicion and when I first saw those FoSs, I actually was trying to find what Mancer and Marth could have done to be scummy until I realized those were joke night votes. So, guys I would like to ask you to only FoS someone who is actually scummy and stick with something like ##Jokevote/Nightvote for jokes.

Also, disappointed that I'm not in the same phase as Lord Gaius. Wanted to have a chance to interact with the new player, lol!

well you ain't the only one, lol

okay time to get serious,

This fact also doesn't really help us in any way. So what if the mafia has an extra kill on N0? The game isn't going to be affected much by that fact.

what do you even mean by the game not being affected much by the death of one player on N0?

Also not sure what was the point of that announcement.

exactly what I was thinking

yeah, guy who made the first announcement contacted me. I'm gutreading this person as town.

why are you townreading this guy when this guy is clearly scummy for doing two really weird things. Will explain why I think so after Coco explains himself.

also, as a general rule, I would like the next person who wants to announce to clarify on which other announcement s/he made previously.

so anyone wants to talk about numbers?

I cannot actually come up with the numbers for this game. :(

will make a read based post on Eury/Marth/Mancer after properly reading the cases

[MancerNecro]

Actually Blitz, what I meant by that should be whether or not the mafia has an extra N0 kill discussing or speculating about it (if we don't know whether it exists or not) is not going to affect the game much. It's just going to be time wasted debating on something that's not helpful towards scum hunting.

[Junk]

holy crap I totally forgot I had the username of coco once.

@mancer Paranoid scum might have been nervous because all night players would have to give their opinions on it and they might have thought town could glean something out of it thus wanting to handwave that discussion.

In response to your other points we both agree that we think that speccing if there was a n0 kill or not would be a waste of time but it's rather the reason GIVEN that bothers me. I think eury says it better by saying that you were trying to downplay things.

Regarding your points on eury they are actually very interesting as I disagree with the suspicion now as her posts at the time were extremely early in the game and I don't expect anyone to have concrete suspicion however if this keeps up later into the game then yeah it's something we should worry about.

@blitz I just am

[BBM]

@blitz- the first ampam had an even split between day and night scum. So I guess based on whether the ITP counts as scum or not it's probably 13/5/1 or 13/4/1

@eury- senpai will be very displeased

@mancer- Why are you focusing so much on word choice? You're harping on the words without bothering to place them in context because it seems pretty clear to me that Eury finds you suspicious. More to the point, why are you getting so suspicious of someone not "scumhunting" like 3 hours into a N0? Firstly you're wrong because she is, and secondly, considering that Eury was your first suspicion, what scumhunting had you done prior to FoSing Eury that you could have expected her to do in your first post?

##FoS: Mancer

I remember the good old days where people would just spampost on N0. sigh

[Eurykins]

Whoo- I'm awaaaaaaaake. Hi again gaiz.

@BBM: NO. SENPAI PLS. I WAS TOO LAZY TO PUT SHIT IN A WORD DOC TO KEEP A HOLD ON WORD COUNT. ;A;

Time to commit sudoku.... T_T