AM/PM 2 Mafia - GAME OVER

[Blitz]

Actually Blitz, what I meant by that should be whether or not the mafia has an extra N0 kill discussing or speculating about it (if we don't know whether it exists or not) is not going to affect the game much. It's just going to be time wasted debating on something that's not helpful towards scum hunting.

ah, ok and here I thought you were okay with losing member for nothing.

@blitz I just am

well, might as well out why I am scumreading the announcing courier

1.wastes an announcement for no reason and only scum would have reason to waste them

2.wastes a courier shot for no reason is what I would like to say, but that is not the case, the truth is s/he used the courier shot to rolefish on Junko.

IMO, wasting the courier shot for no reason would have been bad on it's own. But rolefishing with it is even worse and it also feels like the person picked Coco for how easy it is to get info out of Coco, no offense inteended Coco

(okay, I know I rolefish too, so, this is hypocritical, but this rolefishing smells scummy bad instead of the good rolefishing I do)

there is also another thing that bugs me and that is probably the fact that said Courier was also ITP hunting (based on Coco's responses) which is also bad unless said person has some form of external info given by mods

would like our very likely day talker to explain why s/he did what s/he did in this phase through announcements or through a post and if I don't get this, I will assume this Courier + Announcer is scum

would like some discussion on my scumread from everyone

Time to commit sudoku.... T_T

you mean seppuku? (well, if you do, we should throw a party since we will never have to worry about reading the Queen's wallposts ever agian, lol)

I am actually gonna hold off my opinion of the 3 for a better transgression.

@BBM, thanks

[Junk]

I think the person thought that n0 would probably be a joke night so I think that explains the first announcement.

Also the person wasn't rolefishing. I'm just a moron.

[Blitz]

I think the person thought that n0 would probably be a joke night so I think that explains the first announcement.

Also the person wasn't rolefishing. I'm just a moron.

regarding the first point, no, it doesn't. Having an announcement can come in handy in case a real opinion is needed or something important needs to be asked and for giving out feedback. So, wasting it IS scummy. As for the 2nd chain of announcements, it at the lease accomplished something and especially if the ITP claim is true (and even if it isn't, it did accomplish something, lol). The first one did no such thing and was as good as wasting said person's role

:facepalm: I am gonna have to wait till one of you outs further info. So, why did said person question you (in your opinion)?

[Bluedoom]

Hmmm, here's what I think.

I think Junko's reasoning for suspecting Mancer is contrived, because I can't see how Mancer's statements are causing any sort of diversion? He's saying that we shouldn't dwell on N0 nightkill discussion, and he doesn't produce any other topic to talk about, so really I can't see that as a scum diversion tactic. I also dk what's up with the person who's PMing you but I'm currently thinking you're tryhard town who tried to get us into something concrete that we could discuss about.

I feel like BBM's Mancer case is very similar to Scum!SB's case on Rapier in .hack /The World:R1 Mafia. Both of them are casing someone who accuses another of not getting good content in when they themselves have not. This isn't really a great reason to scumread someone though because find that's hypocritical, but why is its scummy? Not liking this.

Prims, since you didn't really bother doing anything, answer me this: Are you scum?

Eury and Mancer are null for me. I don't really see any problems with any of their content and I can't understand the cases on either of them (yes Mancer, I can't understand your case. I really think she was trying to scumhunt here.)

I also feel like FOS is lame because there's no power behind it.

[Bluedoom]

not find, *fine

[BBM]

it's scummy because like most hypocritical things it's fake content

if you want to compare what I did to something someone else did when they were scum, I can do the same with Mancer- Prims did the exact same thing to me in PToE as scum that Mancer did to Eury.

that being said, the entire method of comparing someone's actions to what someone else did as scum is flawed unless you can say why what SB did is specifically indicative of scum intent and not just something he did during a game where he was scum

also @Blitz- weren't you in AM/PM1? Literally everyone was either a Courier or an Announcer; it enables cross-phase communication. I'm an Announcer too. Aren't you one of those things? A little surprised that someone is both, but considering they claimed ITP, eh. I don't think their claimed wincon is legit though.

[BBM]

Also yeah there's no "power" behind FoSing but it's all we have available to us to indicate suspicion and commit to a scumread since there's no voting at night.

[Sunwoo]

Those loudspeakers are really getting annoying.

"This is my first announcement for the record. @Blitz: I have limit on # of announcements. I suspect others do as well. Do not get hopes up for responses. Overall disappointed/confused by others' wasteful use of announcements. Night 0 can be valuable too. ITT everyone role fishing hard. @Bluedoom: FoS is all you Nighties have, especially this phase. USE IT. It sets up interactions and opinions and that is what we need to scumhunt. Would like to hear more about the message to Junk as well. Announcer #5(?) OUT"

[Elieson]

OK so for what it's worth I'm gonna try condensing on post size by doing posting #s to posts rather than quoting, unless I have a distinct point that I want someone to reply to, rather than just saying "I think X is suspicious for Y in #123". Casing Refa and Mitsuki and Proto in whateveritwas mafia last game was really time consuming. That being said....

---

#7 -> Junko Townoshima: into #19 for weird early D1 pressure tactics

#9 -> Mancer: Unusual opener, semantics indicate possible alignment dissociation clue with Gaius

#12-> Eury: Why no attempt at content?

#Mod25-> ::Thoughts::

#28+#38-> Junko: lol howTOitp there goes my townread

#37-> Eury: Stop playing league it's clouding your thoughts! Really, most of this is repeated and/or fluff

#40-> Eury: Finally a post to read.

Reply to Marth is obvi/needlessly long but is a reply to marth not having a clue so nothing really here. second half though, all of these points are either wrong or bad...other than the first reply to Mancer.

You simultaneously aren't influenced by and look down upon Junko's play to this point?

Your @Mancer's#20 is also contradictory because while you call him out for saying one thing, you yourself identified it as saying just what you say he's pushing to the side. He did prompt conversation by bringing up an opinion (one that you can either agree with or disagree with) regarding the N0 Kill

@Marth's#23, at this stage of the game, any conversation that isn't RVS stands out simply by existance. Decent point but it doesn't fit into the context of the situation at hand since diverting conversation from one of the few possible topics that are out in the open.

#43-> Mancer: First off, Eury's a lady. Second, I pretty much agree with this ##wouldsheep

#46-> Blitz: Pretty fluffy introductory post ngl

fwiw I have not read past Blitz's first post, but will when I get home.

---

##FoS Eurykins

[Junk]

it's not so much the fact that he didn't want us to spec it's the reason that is given what bothers me.

I also agree with BBM regarding mancer (I actually forgot to read the bottom of mancer's post so that post came off as null to me at first. I need to stop multitasking while playing mafia >_>)

Mancer also misrepping eury (saying she wasn't scumhunting when she was) reminds me of him in CYORE 2 when he was scum and did that a lot so yeah.

[BBM]

thoughts from SB (sent via courier message; hyphenated points are SB's opinions and my own opinions are not hyphenated)

-he doesn't think Mancer is scum atm cuz he thinks Mancer's defence against Junko is different from his scumplay, and although he disagrees with his Eury read he sees why Mancer has that opinion; null leaning town here

I honestly can't remember how scum Mancer defends himself but his case on Eury was very typical of his scum meta; where he harps a great deal on word choice and takes things out of context to make cases (basically scum Mancer is town Grassbridger)

-Eury/Blitz feel town because of general posting style and tone being very different from .hack

I agree on the Blitz point; I especially find that town Blitz tends to rolespec a lot more when he's town than when he's scum. Not sure about Eury yet because she was also trying specifically to post differently in .hack because of what Kaoz told her.

-Marth's posts are generally agreeable and he sees no problems with him.

The exact wording in the message is a little unclear; not sure if SB is townreading him or just nullreading him. I guess I myself am null leaning town on gut.

-BBM and Junko are null but Junko kind of feels weird.

nowai BBM is super townie. I also am null with Junko but I haven't felt anything particularly weird?

-he would probably vote for Elie for promising content and then disappearing but it's not a strong read.

This message came before Elie's last post so it's probably no longer valid. IMO Elie's case on Eury is okay enough but it's nothing similar at all to Mancer's case (which sucks and is scummy) so I'm not sure if Elie "would sheep" Mancer's case just because they come to the same conclusion on the same player or because he actually agrees with it. Additionally Mancer is one of the people who's developing into a general suspicion from a lot of people so the subtle defence by sheeping his post without actually defending him bugs me. I think overall I'm a little suspicious of Elie but less than Mancer.

-rolespec is bad because he is also Courier+Announcer; also he thinks that the ITP claim is bullshit

I agree with the point on rolespec; not sure though why town would just fake an ITP claim though? I think some of the ITP's announcements are probably bs but they're probably telling the truth about their alignment.

[Prims]

Good morning (4:50 PM).

First of all, the announcement about scanning Mancer was me and not the real ITP (yeah big surprise). Made that + the real FoS to see how Mancer would react, which has been pretty reasonable so far. Don't actually find him scummy. Not scumreading Eury yet either. I think Mancer is doing a poor job of reading between the lines and that when Eury says "this is even worse", etc she means she finds something scummy. I don't think Mancer is doing this on purpose, however.

Marf I'm town. Why do you think BBM's case is scummy? Even if you don't agree with it, I don't see scum intent in his logic.

I don't like Blitz's first post. I don't see why numbers are relevant, especially if he doesn't have anything to say about them himself. Immediate thought is that he's mafia and doesn't have many serious, alignment-relevant questions to contribute so he posted that as filler.

Not too crazy about Elie because I think his Eury suspicion is unclear. I see a bunch of nitpicks with her post but I don't understand why she's scummy to him. Would like a more comprehensive case from him.

@BBM: do you have non-Mancer reads right now? I'm a little surprised you had nothing to say to Blitz beyond role discussion.

[BBM]

tbh just the mere name of this phase being "Night 0" instead of "Night 1" is sapping my desire to care; I honestly can't even remember what Blitz said that wasn't role discussion; I just saw it and thought "oh, Blitz rolespecs most of the time as town so he's probably town" and didn't bother retaining anything else in my long-term memory.

I read his posts again just now and I think he's overreacting to day phase people making spam announcements/courier messages on Night 0 COME ON BLITZ YOU USED TO PLAY WHEN PEOPLE TREATED NIGHT 0 AS A JOKE but I still think he's town. He should talk more about Mancer and Eury's posts though.

I think Elie is suspicious; might have gotten lost in that post with SB's thoughts which ended up being a lot longer than I thought it was. I'm not as confident about it as Mancer though; would like to see Elie finish reading the thread.

I also got a courier message from Refa. Firstly, he would also like Blitz to know that he was the one who sent that first announcement and first courier message to Junko (he insinuated as such in the message to Junko but didn't directly include his name). He's also out of messages now.

Refa agrees with my responses to SB, but he thinks that all the active posters are town and is also not scumreading Prims (message sent before Prims just posted). I'm not sure I get this; if you agree with my responses to SB then aren't you agreeing with my Elie suspicion? Also he would like Mancer to stop being such a big red herring (as in stop being scummy as town I think?). Also also that reminded me that SB also said that he was town/nullreading almost everyone too.

BTW as an aside- as a pure Announcer I have 2 announcements; Refa implied that Courier/Announcers have 2 messages/1 announcement, and so I'm going to guess that pure Couriers (if there are any?) have 4 messages. This is fully lame because announcements are not twice as good as courier messages. Sure they get to the thread faster if you want to communicate to the entire thread, but it allows private communication and roleclaims (for the people who have roles other than just communicating).

[Junk]

still really sorry that I made you waste a courier refa :(

[Blitz]

since people have been asking, my reads are;

Mancer, I have seen this guy scumslipping as town and he always overreacts (based on Encounter mafia) . I kinda think his reactions are overreacted to Eury's points, but well within his limits. Basically, need further content before obtaining a proper read on him. Also, I don't remember his scumplay and might actually read an old game to get a better meta on him

Junko, now this guy is the opposite of Mancer, I mean, he townslips as scum (based on code geass mafia) and therefore, even though his play feels town, I am null reading him.

Eury, I, to an extent, agree with Mancer's case on Eury, because it feels like a very similar case that I used in Code Geass mafia, which makes him an overall null leaning town and Eury as null because she was town in Code Geass mafia.

Marth, I like his posts overall. but they are somehow lacking the edge town!Marth has, so, it kinda worries me to be townreading him, even though I am.

BBM, feels like he does more than he is doing now as town

Elieson, unlike the post he made in Code Geass, this one feels less interested in scumhunting

Prims, giving off the same aura as he did in Conspiracy mafia, not sure why.

okay, so, those are my reads so far on my insomniac buddies and as you guys can see, these actually provided nothing much more than a few nullreads.

@BBM, I don't remember playing AMPM1, I might have been part of it, but, I don't remember. So, serious talk. Do you feel anything weird about Prims?

I am not sure about wincon, I mean, I can see it as legit. After all, I highly doubt we have more than a very few night active roles and I think they are the basic ones like cop/doc/vig(with limited shots like 1/2) and I doubt anyone would want to waste these shots on ITP when someone real needs investigation/protection and vig shots needing saving. Also, based on the announcements, it shouldn't be very hard to narrow down ITP claim and I will get to it when I have some time.

also, if you wanna go into rolespecs, do you have a limit to the number of characters?

also, even if this game is an N0 start, this is all we are getting before the end of D1, so, this N0 is clearly different from normal N0s. Also, I have always tried to play and get an initial scumread before D1s in N0s if they existed

@Prims, why do I feel that there is something wrong about you?

@Refa, running out is exactly why you should've saved the announcements/couriers :(

If you had, you could've interjected better. Would like an actual explanation on why you wasted your shots in EN0 when you have no limitations

@Elie, get on with the next part please

#58 actually sums up my thoughts on N0 very nicely.

once again, I won't be around for a long time today, will show up at my night if I have net.

[MancerNecro]

If you should return to me, we truly were meant to be.....

So, fly into the sky, butterfly...

Sounds pretty fitting for this game to me lols!

Back on topic:

Why would Refa waste his only announcement role so early in the game is something I question. He uses his two courier shots in a more useful way though so I'm leaning null on Refa right now (that and the fact that he hasn't had a chance to interact in the thread yet).

I can see the points about "worse" and "seems off" meaning scummy. However, the main thing I dislike about Eury's reads are that she says she is looking at the "Mancer/Marth interactions" but doesn't mention whether she thinks it could be town in-fighting or a town vs scum or scum/scum interaction. That and she has reasons for finding both Bluedoom and I scummy makes me feel that her reads aren't clear and concrete at all.

Also, I don't like Elieson's last post because it feels very lazy and sheep-y to me. Junko's tone also reads as somewhat weird to me. I can't quite grasp it but my gut's pinging me on something in his posts.

Don't like how BBM seems to be attacking me by saying that I was picking on wordplay because that was a misrepresentation of my case. My initial case pointed out on how Eury didn't seem to be clear in concluding whether she thought me or Bluedoom was scummier despite initially saying that she had gotten something out of the interactions between the two of us.

[Bluedoom]

@Prims: I see scum intent in BBM's reasoning because it focuses on something easy to notice(hypocrisy) but uses convoluted reasoning, and scum can afford such cases IMO. Its not an instance like Junko's where you pull something out of nowhere just to get reactions and open up discussion.

Also, I think asking numbers is relevant considering the mechanics of this game. We don't actually know what we're in for when it comes to day phase, BUT, I don't believe this is the only content that Blitz has had in the game, so Prims, what do you think of Blitz's Junko read? And what about his courier alignment spec?

[Bluedoom]

Oh, as far a s numbers go, I think it might be 13/5. I don't believe there's a third in this game because I feel like it would mess around with the balance big time.

[BBM]

I have 150 word announcements IIRC.

I don't think the ITP would out their presence when it's so easy to get narrowed down by announcement claiming if they really cared about hiding their identity for very long.

Prims should probably post more but I don't think he's scummy for not? I don't really have any opinion on him at the moment.

@Mancer- except it's very clear that she's suspicious of you more than she's suspicious of Marth? It's in the context of how often she doesn't like your posts vs how often she doesn't like Marth's posts, and focusing on the words Eury uses rather than saying why her actual content is scummy. The most you talk about her content is about her opinion about the whole "kills on N0 thing" except you don't relate that to her alignment in any way.

about N0- You know what this N0 is accomplishing? It's providing a potential target for the info role that might not even exist (didn't in ampm1). It's providing a springboard for discussion for the players on D1, in that they might be able to skip past 6 hours of RVS. That's it. The day dudes aren't going to lynch anybody I talk about tonight. Providing targets for the vig (who by the way almost certainly has more than 1/2 shots; ampm1 had an infinite shot vig as well as a backup vig and was only 14p)? No kills on N0; so I can do that on N1 and do it way better with D1 stuff to talk about.

@Marth- Do you think hypocrisy is suspicious?

[BBM]

I don't blame Refa for blowing his announcement early; if I was in shoes I might have done the same because I probably wouldn't have expected people to care so much about n0

[BBM]

I should clarify; Mancer not talking about Eury's actual content was in his first post expressing suspicion of her. In his latest post he does talk about her content but again he doesn't look at context in any way cuz like it's quite obvious she doesn't think Mancer is town so why would anyone interpret her post as saying the interactions are town infighting? And how is her finding both him and Marth both scummy at all vague and unconcrete I don't even get it.

[BBM]

quadruple post of destiny

ADVICE FOR THE ROOFAQUEST ON WHOM TO LYNCH TOTALLY ORIGINAL THE COMIC DONUT STEAL

[Bluedoom]

Oh man that's an awesome pic.

I don't think hypocrisy is scummy in this context. I think if scum were to go "Well I can't generate content 3 hours into the game but you didn't so you're scum." then they'd be deluding themselves.

[Junk]

lmao mancer elie was sheeping you and your eury case. Also elie's first half of his eury case no one had mentioned before? I feel like this is just misrepping elie. Also mancer it's silly getting on eury for not being concrete when she had literally posted a few hours into the game. Also I feel like you're just ignoring this valid point. This is scummy because I feel like if this point is brought up against you it pretty much destroys your case since your case is essentially her not being concrete but no one is going to be concrete a few hours into the game. Scum are the one who want to look like they have cases and yeah.

Reads List

Scum:

Mancer (tldr reasons given are misrep plus his downplaying of the nk plus ignoring valid points)

Town:

Refa (I'm pretty sure he isn't the ITP otherwise he wouldn't have wasted a courier on me since everybody would have thought I was the ITP and the reason why I think he isn't mafia is because in his questions he was putting pressure on me and I feel like mafia would generally try to be more gentle with the questions)

Blitz (his tone really reminds me of code geass mafia)

Bluedoom (This guy townslipped when he asked if mafia could kill n0 and I felt it was really natural. This is further supported because I feel like mafia would just keep quite when I was answering the couriers questions but bluedoom asked what the hell was going on)

[Prims]

Confirming I received the courier's message.

@Blitz: if I had to guess it's because I don't have any strong reads yet and there's no votes so I can't be my usual aggro town self. do you want to explain why I feel weird about you? imo your questions so far haven't been particularly thought-provoking and your reads themselves are vague.

@Marf: I don't find his courier alignment speculation as pertinent as pressure on a definitive player who can post. While not scummy itself, if he's scum then it's safe play since it doesn't confront anybody, so I'm not giving him points for it. Not sure what Junko read there is to talk about. Personally I think Junko is very obviously motivated!town but I'm not very familiar with his meta so this could change. What do you think of BBM's recent content?

Elie's my best scumread right now and I'm still waiting for his explanation. Looks to me like he made a case by finding a bunch of holes to poke at rather than looking for scum intent. I'm ambivalent on Blitz; I don't think he has his town edge yet and I'm not sure if that's just because it's a night start or what.