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Hoenn region tier list


MacLovin
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Lets see...

Zangoose. comes around the meteor falls or whatever you call them at lv 15ish. Clearly not in shape by the time we battle Flannery or Norman as the lving curve would have to be quite high. I'd say he catches up by the time we battle Winona because gap between 5th and 6th gym is huge. There he kicks raer ends with STAB Slash against all the non Skarmorymons. Keeps doing good until we hit Tate and Liza. Against them he does good if he gets Shadow Ball, otherwise he is pretty weak here. Then Rolls caves and watermons. And lots of magma boys. caves he can deal with brick break (slash/any stab or zubat line) and runs over the other 2 groups with STAB moves. Then comes some more caves. and we are in League.

1st elite 4 is Brick Break Solo

2nd goes down with Shadow Ball

3rd... Brick Break

4th... Not his territory

Steven... Has too bulky team to lean for Brick Break.

All in all he relies quite heavily to 2 highly wanted TMs (well Brick Break not so much) to do what Makuhita/Machop(/blaziken?) does but worse. When comparing to those his times to shine are Flying gym and Psychic gym if he gets Shadow Ball. Now lets look at pkmn directly under him. Magnemite. Magnemite does those 2 spots where Zangoose would be used over Fighters... better. Lets remember Magnemite is trolling Waters too. And hey he is able to take on 4th. Elite(outside Flygons).

If anything Zangoose has to DROP under Magnemite. Or magnemite rise more than him. yeah lets forget Zangoose going up hor now...

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Considering the fact that shadow balls best users in Hoenn are

Absol

Zangoose

Linoone

Banette (Learns it naturally)

Dusclops(Lol at this doing a lot of damage)

Sableye(Learns it naturally)

Shiftry(better for sunnybeaming)

Mightyena(Slows down lategame)

Ninjask(lol at def.)

Shedinja(Can't take a f****ng hit)

Solrock(........)

Glalie(.........)

Crobat( If you do train one)

Lol at psychic types using a physical move.

I can see Zangoose, Mightyena, Linoone, Sableye, Solrock, Shiftry or Absol getting it.

Banette learns it upon evolving.

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Hmmm works. I would add meditite and like.... Slakoth (Slow start but evolves to vigoroth pretty soon, slaking is so strong that attacking every second turn don't hold it back too much), Wynaut also even if it prefers its ability to go mixed and Swalot could really use some coverage

I would also like to raise the case of making own tier list for each game

Edited by Princess K
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Swalot is underrated IMO.

But I can't put my finger on it..

Medidite arrives late, but is good.

Slaking is great, expecially if you can have another pokemon skill swap with Slaking for tate and liza.

Lol overkill.

I was thinking about Swalots movepool.

Its got variety, like Exploud, but its stats are kinda average.

Except for its defenses.

It is also capable of using shadow ball, in addition of BBreak, shock wave/thunderbolt, ice beam, return, stab sludge bomb, and amnesia.

Any thoughts on it...

Magneton gets raped by the random whishcash that trainers carry, along with juan/wallaces whishcash.

So, I think it should stay.

Bulkiness+good typing+wtf sp att&STAB tb is good.

Low attacking movepool isn't .

Supersonic

Thunderwave

TBolt

HP special(if you're lucky)/????

Edited by The Creeper
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Swalot is underrated IMO.

But I can't put my finger on it..

Well I can.

How is Swalot under Grimer and Koffing?

Lets see their pros and cons

Gulpin:

+ Comes bit earlier than others

+ Yawn

+ Instant Sludge

+ Earliest evolution (26)

+ Natural Body Slam

+ Natural Sludge Bomb lv 48

- Worst Stats

Grimer

+ Best Stats

+ Instant Sludge

+ Natural Sludge Bomb lv 47

- Very late evolution lv 38

- Quite low 65 Spa Atk (others can go mixed easily)

Koffing

+ Can go kaboom in a tight spot

- Late Sludge at lv 21

- No natural Sludge Bomb

- Late evolution lv 35

Am I the only one seeing Gulpin's movepool and early evolution as reasons to outdo the classic duo?

Magneton gets raped by the random whishcash that trainers carry, along with juan/wallaces whishcash.

So, I think it should stay.

Bulkiness+good typing+wtf sp att&STAB tb is good.

Low attacking movepool isn't .

Supersonic

Thunderwave

TBolt

HP special(if you're lucky)/????

Yeah its bulk outdoes its shallow movepool im my opinion. Electric is very good offensive type because It has Ground immunity and Grass/Dragon/Electric resistanses to go over. Out of these Grass types are helpless against magneton's resitances and it can just sonicboon/tri-attack chip them away. Dragons are essentially Drake's team. Against Drake it does neutral damage to Salamence and Altaria (and kingra in emerald) while resisting their stabs. Flygons are not its piece of cake granted. As for Whiscash, I know I have used this argument already but 1 PKMN OMG! WHAT AM I GOING TO DO!? SOMEHOW I AM UNABLE TO DEAL WITH THIS WITH ANYTHING ELSE LIKE SWELLOW OR ANY OF THE LIKE AND THEN GO BACK TO MAGNETON.

Really Ground is very minor type in this game. Same goes for electric and dragon

Edited by Princess K
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Electrics weak to ground, not immune.

XD

Yeah.

Hmm, how about Voltorb rising, it arrives at the same time as the little Magnet, and Electrode is wild in the power plant too.

Also, Electrode is very fast with decent special attack and explosion+thunder wave.

I'm thinking that Altaria needs to drop.

Swablu is very scrubby, and by the time it evolves, you can get a Trapinch to level 30.

(Maybe I'm stretching this)

How about Sandshrew rising.

Dig+high att and early evolution make it good.

Also, it can be found in the same route that Skarmorys in.

Also, Aerial Ace, fury cutter, return, earthquake, sand tomb, and brick break are all decent moves.

Edited by The Creeper
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XD

Yeah.

Hmm, how about Voltorb rising, it arrives at the same time as the little Magnet, and Electrode is wild in the power plant too.

Also, Electrode is very fast with decent special attack and explosion+thunder wave.

I'm thinking that Altaria needs to drop.

Swablu is very scrubby, and by the time it evolves, you can get a Trapinch to level 30.

(Maybe I'm stretching this)

How about Sandshrew rising.

Dig+high att and early evolution make it good.

Also, it can be found in the same route that Skarmorys in.

Also, Aerial Ace, fury cutter, return, earthquake, sand tomb, and brick break are all decent moves.

But can you really expect the explosion to do much, coming off 50 base attack?

Calling Fury Cutter a decent move is really stretching it...

Edited by Metal King Slime
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Well.

Its movepool isn't big, so explosion would do decent damage as a last resort.

Yeah, Fury Cutter was stretching it, but its a disposable move, and as soon as Sandslash get AAce, its gone.

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Well I can.

How is Swalot under Grimer and Koffing?

Lets see their pros and cons

Gulpin:

+ Comes bit earlier than others

+ Yawn

+ Instant Sludge

+ Earliest evolution (26)

+ Natural Body Slam

+ Natural Sludge Bomb lv 48

- Worst Stats

Grimer

+ Best Stats

+ Instant Sludge

+ Natural Sludge Bomb lv 47

- Very late evolution lv 38

- Quite low 65 Spa Atk (others can go mixed easily)

Koffing

+ Can go kaboom in a tight spot

- Late Sludge at lv 21

- No natural Sludge Bomb

- Late evolution lv 35

Am I the only one seeing Gulpin's movepool and early evolution as reasons to outdo the classic duo?

You're not the only one.

Grimer is a giant PITA to find in Emerald and Ruby, to the tune of a 2% encounter rate. Likewise, Koffing is saddled with that same encounter rate in Sapphire. Gulpin comes early when you want STAB Sludge and can leave around Gym 7, and gets better faster than the other 2. Plus, Yawn is pretty amazing.

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Exactly who are you arguing for?

Also, is Geodude droppigng plausible?

Swalot can use the rare combo of Yawn+ Focus punch.

Geodude has trouble lategame, it's res isn't high, and Golem doesn't exist due to no trade.

I think it could drop, but to where.

Zangoose&Magnemite switching places now.

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Why is Ralts above Abra anyways? Abra can be raised pretty easily into Kadabra via Exp Share, and once it does it wins for a large chunk of the game, due to being much more powerful and much faster, not to mention an experience group (Medium Slow) that helps it level much, much faster.

Ralts may come early, but it's very weak until it hits Kirlia, and even with that, it's still pretty weak. Only when it hits the Gardevoir stage does it even begin to really compete with Kadabra, and it takes longer to level due to its experience group (Slow), along with a real lack of power. The impact Gardevoir's base 5 lead in Sp. Atk is lowered considerably when you take into account the fact that Kadabra will be higher leveled

The graph below was taken from Bulbapedia and reuploaded to avoid hotlinking. The brown line is Ralts' experience group, and the purple line is Kadabra's. Even though it's a bit hard to see down in the lower levels, there's thousands of experience of difference between the two. For example, giving Ralts 20,000 EXP gives you about a Lv. 25 Kirlia, while the same experience on Kadabra would result in a Lv. 29 Kadabra.

ExpGraphLv50.png

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Because Ralts learns an attack at level 6, and is insantly useful after some babying.

Abra needs babying, but is faster and more powerful.

Howeverm Gardevoir is able to take a little more physical punishment that Kadabra, and can tank special attacks other than dark.

Also, Calm Mind+Psychic+TBolt/Showk Wave and Hypnosis are decent moves.

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Because Ralts learns an attack at level 6, and is insantly useful after some babying.

Abra needs babying, but is faster and more powerful.

Howeverm Gardevoir is able to take a little more physical punishment that Kadabra, and can tank special attacks other than dark.

Also, Calm Mind+Psychic+TBolt/Shock Wave and Hypnosis are decent moves.

Well, Ralts does learn Confusion, but it isn't very good at it with only base 45 Sp. Atk, and its stuck with 28/25/35 defenses until Lv. 20, to around the tune of 10,000 EXP, minus whatever it has when you catch it. The amount for Abra to evolve (assuming it's caught at Lv. 8): 2221, which isn't too bad if you use that Exp Share. Keep in mind, Kadabra can learn Shock Wave and CM too, through TM, and it learns Psybeam at Lv. 21 for even more early power, along with Reflect a couple of levels later.

Kirlia does eventually catch up, learning Psychic at Lv. 26, ten levels earlier than Kadabra and evolving not too long afterwards, but by the time it does it has already consumed over 10,000 EXP more than Kadabra, a sizable amount that could have been used by the rest of the team. Give that same EXP to Kadabra, and it gets 4 levels ahead! Shockingly enough, I ran some more Rare Candy testing and found that if both Kadabra and Gardevoir get the same EXP, Kadabra keeps this level advantage all the way through all the reasonable in-game levels!

In summary, Kadabra requires less experience to be good, and does much better as an attacker all of the way through the midgame, leaving you more flexible in how you want to distribute EXP.

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Yes

But, rise ot to where??

Also, Kadabra can't take a hit.

What about Aron rising.

With the exception of ground and fighting and wàter, there's not much that ohkos it.

And it tanks the many flying/normal/bug type trainers while using take down+rock head for massive damage

Edited by The Creeper
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  • 1 month later...
With the exception of ground and fighting and wàter, there's not much that ohkos it.

The main problem is that these moves are incredibly common, especially as part of the game is pretty much exclusively ocean. Not to mention he's very slow and late evolutions.

Looking right above him, though, he might have a case. Numel, for example, has worse availability, a later evolution, arguably worse durability, and a smaller move pool. He just doesn't have ground and fighting double weaknesses. But his double water weakness is just as bad.

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Hmmmmm.

How 'bout Makuhita rising?

Its got a nice movepool.

Decent bulk

And has arm thrust/cross chop for stab.

As well as belly drum! Bulk up, EQ! Rock tomb, and return.

It can also surf for HM slave stuff.

And has counter/reversal too.

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And his availability. And his generally strong type match ups. Only winona and flannery give him any real problems.

In terms of gym leader match ups, treecko has Roxanne, Tate & Liza, Wallace and can learn dragon claw for Drake and if its levelled enough it can tank a hit from glacia and go sunny day-solarbeam on their asses thanks to his very nice speed. Makuhita has Tate & Liza, Sidney and Wattson. The latter isn't really a problem for Treecko though. Also, when the game goes mostly water pokemon on routes 125-126, Treecko can grind quicker.

The main problem with treecko is that he stops us getting mudkip, who can do pretty much everything treecko can and more.

Edit: I do agree with aron > numel though, so you can make the move if you want. :p

Edited by kirsche
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I'd say it's better than Treecko tbh. Treecko is frail, and his only notable move is Leaf Blade. Sure he's fast, but his strong points stop there.

Treecko has a lot of problems. His levelup movepool is almost completely locked to Grass, Normal, and Hidden Power, and Mono-Grass is terrible compared to Fire/Fighting or Water/Ground. Sceptile does have a stellar speed stat, but that's about all it has going for it.

Gym-wise, he does poorly. You do good against Roxxane, you're okay against Brawly if you manage to kill them before the Bulk Up spam starts, but then the trouble starts. Wattson has a Magneton; your attacks are all resisted, it can still hit you with Normal type moves. Flannery is a nightmare for obvious reasons; if you manage to survive Overheat, you spent way too much time grinding. Norman is, of course, a living hell to go through pretty much period, and Sceptile's poor durability means it is going to die to Slaking way too easily. Wiona is beyond horrible; in between the high-attack Swellow, the impossible to kill Skarmory, and the DRAGON-type Altaria, the grass type is doing zip.

Tate and Tiza are actually bearable in Ruby and Sapphire; fighting things are weak to grass for the first time in forever is a nice change of pace. Finally, Wallace is a joke outside of Milotic.

He's a much better choice in Sapphire than in Ruby; taking on the team that focuses on the type you destroy is better than the team that focuses on the type that destroys YOU.

Now technically you have the type advantage on BOTH Kyogre and Groudon; in reality, only Groudon is remotely survivable.

Against Groudon, Solarbeam becomes an actual option, and it's almost needed: Sceptile will be having massive difficulty surviving even an unboosted Slash or Earthquake, and you automatically die to FIre Blast. If sufficently leveled, that Solarbeam will probably 1-shot Groudon with room

Against Kyogre, you are not going to win. Base 140 Special Defense means your Leaf Blade might not kill even with a crit, and you auto-die to Ice Beam. Heck, even Hydro Pump might 1-shot if you're unlucky. Body Slam is survivable, but if it paralyzes...

The E4 is just icing on the cake. Dark is actually bearable, but it goes far down hill from there. Ghost is an unending nightmare of ridiculous defenses and annoyance. Ice is odd in that Sealeo and Walrein are easy to handle compared to the mono-Ice types; 50% fail, 50% kill or be killed. Dragon is pure hell partially thanks to resistances, partially because they are DRAGONS. Salamence is Altaria, complete with Aerial Ace: Big difference is that Salamence also has better stats than you and the end result is you die. Finally, Steven is just unfair in every way ever.

Conclusion: Drop Treeko a good amount.

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Why is Lotad still in mid tier? I think that's too high for it. Lotad's pretty much stuck with terrible moves until Surf comes along, and Seedot has the same problem.

EDIT:

Makuhita has Tate & Liza

What? They're Psychics, Hariyama's slooow, and... do I even need to mention how utterly Hariyama gets destroyed here? Especially going by Emerald, since RS Tate and Liza are so much of a joke they aren't even worthy of being discussed.

Edited by Metal King Slime
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