Penalizing Jeigans

[Chiki]

A problem I've had with people not penalizing Jeigans and assuming that they're used as much as possible to be efficient is that they take valuable experience from other units and are unable to use it as effectively as other units.

For example:

Titania, who gains 2 exp per battle.

Oscar, who gains 30 exp per battle.

The cost for using Titania is that the exp she gains is wasted early on, because she can't use it to increase her stats and promote, while Oscar can.

It's actually a bad idea to use a unit like Titania for the sake of efficiency early on, because if your units are weak, then you won't be able to cut as many turns lategame or even midgame. It's actually a much better idea to use a unit like Titania as little as possible.

[Integrity]

Just a note, you're talking about the exactly wrongest possible game for this analogy, since FE9 throws BEXP at you as a reward for completing things quickly which you can use to, uh, raise Oscar.

[MacLovin]

Not everyone does LTC.

Also, prepromoted units exist-as does early promotion.

And units with good bases+early promotions are also availible.

(fe6 Dieck, fe7 Raven, fe7 HHM Heath, fe8 Garcia+Hero+Spdwings, fe8 Cormag, etc.)

[Chiki]

Just a note, you're talking about the exactly wrongest possible game for this analogy, since FE9 throws BEXP at you as a reward for completing things quickly which you can use to, uh, raise Oscar.

All of those requirements can be done without abusing Titania.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Aeine

[Integrity]

All of those requirements can be done without abusing Titania.

And your point is ...? Are you saying we shouldn't push for turncounts below the absolute maximum max BEXP limit?

[SB.]

And yet it's easier to do it with her. Prepromotes are more reliable than their unpromoted counterparts due to lack of possible RNG screwage, and not needing help to get off of the ground.

[Chiki]

And your point is ...? Are you saying we shouldn't push for turncounts below the absolute maximum max BEXP limit?

You're putting words in my mouth.

I'm simply saying that Titania is overrated. The same turncounts can be acquired without abusing her (using her as little as possible) and taking exp from other units with more potential.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Aeine

[Integrity]

You're putting words in my mouth.

I'm simply saying that Titania is overrated. The same turncounts can be acquired without abusing her (using her as little as possible) and taking exp from other units with more potential.

Potential doesn't mean anything if it isn't realized. BEXP alone is enough to get Oscar to realize his potential. For pure LTC (which seems to be the reason for your butthurtery) Titania shaves turns early on that Oscar can never shave if you abuse her. Since Oscar's potential can be realized through almost pure BEXP (and it's not like he's getting 0 kills) why wouldn't we abuse Titania early on for the turns that Oscar cannot shave?

[Mekkah]

Alright, which one of you fiddled with the time machine and set us 3 years back?

[SB.]

You're putting words in my mouth.

I'm simply saying that Titania is overrated. The same turncounts can be acquired without abusing her (using her as little as possible) and taking exp from other units with more potential.

FE9 Chapter 1

2 turns with Titania

3+ turns without Titania

[Integrity]

FE9 Chapter 1

2 turns with Titania

3+ turns without Titania

I'm modestly positive he meant the same turncounts without having Titania just rout everything on her own, not without using Titania at all.

EDIT: jesus there was so much wrong with that line

Edited July 23, 2012 by Mr. Sparkles

[Chiki]

Potential doesn't mean anything if it isn't realized. BEXP alone is enough to get Oscar to realize his potential. For pure LTC (which seems to be the reason for your butthurtery) Titania shaves turns early on that Oscar can never shave if you abuse her. Since Oscar's potential can be realized through almost pure BEXP (and it's not like he's getting 0 kills) why wouldn't we abuse Titania early on for the turns that Oscar cannot shave?

Butthurt? Already starting with the ad hominem? That's quite immature, so I suggest you calm down.

This isn't an LTC thread; I'm using the bexp requirements that you yourself mentioned, and I'm trivializing Titania's use in them. Here is my first argument:

1. FE9 has a turn limit to maximize your bexp

2. Titania abuse is not necessary to reach these turn limits

----

3 Therefore, Titania is not wholly necessary for the bexp turn limits.

Here is my original argument:

1. Titania has low potential

2. Titania gains little exp from battles

3. Abusing Titania prevents your other team members from getting experience

4. If you have weak units for midgame and lategame, that hurts your turn-cutting potential

---

5. Therefore, Titania abuse hurts your game midgame and lategame

Edited July 23, 2012 by Aeine

[Espinosa]

Why don't you make a Titanialess run of PoR (much like Sethless runs through FE8) and compare your turn counts to whatever the record is? Then you'll know if Oscar not getting his God-given 30 exp makes a difference, and in whose favour.

[Chiki]

Why don't you make a Titanialess run of PoR (much like Sethless runs through FE8) and compare your turn counts to whatever the record is? Then you'll know if Oscar not getting his God-given 30 exp makes a difference, and in whose favour.

That wouldn't be fair, I think, because I used Titania as little as possible to conserve exp for my other units in my LTC run. With Ike, Kieran, Oscar, Marcia and etc. needing so much exp, it would've been idiotic to use Titania too much.

Anyway, I don't think the difference would be that great--10 turns at the most. Titania is amazing in chapters like 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7, but that's honestly where it ends and she becomes.. not so useful after that.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Aeine

[SB.]

LTCing FE9 without Titania is a pain. She IS your earlygame, nobody else has the raw stats to take the stuff she does.

[Integrity]

EDIT: nah you know what fuck it I really don't know/care enough about FE9 to engage in this

Edited July 23, 2012 by Mr. Sparkles

[Jimmy_Smith]

Jeigans are too good to not be use in most FE.

In FE7,8,9,10 (and 4 if you count Sigurd as Jeigan, I didn't play 2 and 13 yet so I don't know about them)

They're too powerful in early game, can single handle a map by themselves and have good growth to be use in late game,too.

Jeigan unit shouldn't be like that.(at lease IMO)

The existent of Jaigan should be just a Deus Ex Machina for newbie in earlygame, but it's turn out they are one of the best(if not the THE best) units in game for anyone and any play-style.

Jeigans unit should be like FE1/3 Jeigan or FE5 Jeigan

FE1/3 Jeigans has good stat but not too good and has nearly zero-growth rate, they are useless in mid and late game, so you had to use them as little as possible.

FE5 Jeigans (Evayle) will be absent after a few chapter, Discourage you more to not to use her in early game.

IMO just a EXP penalty is not enough to "penalizing for using Jeigan" we need more than that.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Jimmy_Smith

[Integrity]

(I didn't play 2 and 13 yet so I don't know about them)

I can't speak for 13, but 2 doesn't really have anything resembling a Jeigan.

[Chiki]

LTCing FE9 without Titania is a pain. She IS your earlygame, nobody else has the raw stats to take the stuff she does.

And using her has a lot of disadvantages..

Ike wants bexp to be fragile enough to survive attacks when you drop him in boss areas.

Kieran and Oscar want exp as well.

Marcia wants basically all of your bexp once you get to Chapter 11.

Mist wants bexp as well.

So does your sage, which is going to be either Soren or Ilyana.

Seriously, I don't need to be told that Titania is needed earlygame. I'm JUST saying that she's slightly overrated. That's it.

So I ask, what's the point of this conclusion?

I'm just saying that she's not as good as everyone says. I'm not saying that she's bad. She is VERY good. I'm just saying she's overrated.

True, true, and logical. On the other hand, the BEXP turn limits are not difficult to reach by any stretch (do correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't played much FE9) so we're on the same track as saying Seth "isn't necessary" to complete FE8 or osmethne. So I ask, what's the point of this conclusion?

There's a big difference between saying "Seth isn't necessary to complete FE8" and saying "Titania isn't necessary to complete FE9 within the bexp turn limits." One, the average player can do, while the average player can't do the other.

EDIT: You seem to have confirmed that we are only striving for BEXP maximum minimum, which is still a fairly low bar to set for a debate of any magnitude but ok.

Even assuming slightly stricter requirements, she's still not as necessary as everyone says she is.

[Mekkah]

I kind of want to bite but don't feel like it so I'll just ask you this.

If Titania started as a L1 Axe Knight or Lance Knight or whatever and would end up with the same stats at 20/1 as she has at base now, would you consider her better?

If yes, something is wrong with you.

If no, then you gotta realize the Titania you currently get is really that unit with 1900 free EXP. Penalizing her for coming with that much EXP (by saying "she wastes it") is silly.

[eclipse]

Can you name how Titania in FE9 is not as "good" as Oscar besides stat gain? Here's what I see about both of them:

- Their availability is roughly the same

- Titania wields axes and lances, Oscar wields lances and (your choice); Titania's lace rank is equal to Oscar's

- Oscar needs to hit level 17, fixed mode/no bands, to match Titania's base Strength. He needs to be level 19 to match her base Speed.

[Lord Raven]

To argue that Titania is overrated using the fact that she is overleveled is dumb, though I do agree she is overrated. She's still the best Paladin in the game- best unit, I'd beg to differ myself, but I'm waiting until I have a lot of time and energy before I actually argue this statement.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Lord Raven

[SilentSentinel]

A random guy appeared!

Here's the way I've always tried to think of it. You say that Titania is weaker than many of your units come lategame, which is true. But are those stats deficiencies really doing anything? The way I see it, there's a certain level that your characters get to where it no longer matters much how strong they are.

Lets say you took the time to raise up Oscar to 20/10, and he's got 20 Strength, 21 Skill, and 21 Speed (this is about average). And in that same time frame you've raised Titania up to level 14ish or so, which is figuring pretty conservatively for an LTC if you ask me. She'll have 18 Strength, 21 Skill, and 21 Speed. So the difference is 2 points of Strength.

Now there's a random mook Sword Knight with 30HP and 12 Defense, and your two paladins here both have Steel Lances. Obviously both units will be ORKOing this mook, so who cares whether Oscar has 2 more points of strength? If they can both do the same thing, the stats no longer matter. The difference is that for Oscar to be this strong you need to dump resources into him, while Titania will reach this point by simply using her as she deserves to be used in an LTC setting.

The argument against most Jeigans is that they don't end up as good, but if they can smash nameless henchmen just as easily as your babied Mia/Oscar/Nino/Est with 5 capped stats or whatever, there's no difference, and you didn't have to go out of your way whilst wrecking earlygame.

[Lord Raven]

endgame enemies aren't those sword knights but okay, she needs a silver forge at times to pull off ORKOs and junk, but Marcia/Jill are much better for the type of playthrough the OP is describing

[Chiki]

Can you name how Titania in FE9 is not as "good" as Oscar besides stat gain? Here's what I see about both of them:

- Their availability is roughly the same

- Titania wields axes and lances, Oscar wields lances and (your choice); Titania's lace rank is equal to Oscar's

- Oscar needs to hit level 17, fixed mode/no bands, to match Titania's base Strength. He needs to be level 19 to match her base Speed.

Since when did I compare her to Oscar?

To argue that Titania is overrated using the fact that she is overleveled is dumb, though I do agree she is overrated. She's still the best Paladin in the game- best unit, I'd beg to differ myself, but I'm waiting until I have a lot of time and energy before I actually argue this statement.

I can just as easily state that aliens exist without giving any reasoning as to why.

I'm not saying Titania is inferior to Oscar and etc. in terms of efficiency, I'm simply saying that she's overrated because she only contributes earlygame and sucks after that when units like Oscar and Kieran need exp.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Aeine