Race change in established characters

[Skynstein]

So, there's talk of the next Spiderman being black or Latino and, since Miles Morales exists, it has been rumored Marvel would use him in the MCU instead of Peter Parker. However, I think Marvel pretty much confirmed Peter will be the Spiderman of the MCU, at least in the first few films, but that hasn't stopped people from wanting a black Spiderman. This would involve them changing Peter Parker's race, as Fox has done with Human Torch.

I personally am not fond of it. Yes, I know representation is important, and yes, I know the majority of relevant characters in Western culture is Caucasian, but still, I think changing race of a character is too drastic a measure. People have said Peter Parker's race doesn't matter, and it's quite funny to hear this since for a white character the race never matters, while black characters seem to be designed with race in mind. God forbid we have a white Black Panther; and I'm not asking for it, either. I do think Peter's Caucasian appearance matters somewhat. Peter is a stereotypical nerd, and those are usually portrayed as white skinny boys, at least from what I know.

Fox changing Human Torch's race was an idiotic move, because Johnny Storm is Sue's brother, and Sue is still very white in the upcoming film. It can happen that siblings from a multirracial relationship each have a certain appearance, but it's rare. It was very clearly a marketing move to create talk about a film that doesn't seem too stellar.

It's interesting to note that there doesn't seem to be much interest in creating new franchises with minority characters at the helm. It's an easier, and lazier, move to change race of a established character like James Bond than it is to create a new legacy with a new prominent black character.

This is not really only about race, but gender and sexual orientation, too, with Marvel turning Thor into a female to appeal to women.

So, what do you think of it?

[EricaofRenais]

I get annoyed by things like this because I would rather see people take these ideas and create a new character and story, instead of changing a character that has been that way for years and years. I really wish they would make more characters like BraveStarr from Filmation's 80's TV show who has his own back story and is a really neat character and I bought all the series just because I thought a Native American hero was really cool. Marvel is not the only one who gets pressure to change a character I am getting really tiered of seeing article after article demanding Nintendo change Link in to a girl, Link is almost as iconic as Mario and has been around for 29 years and I as a girl have no problem with Link being a boy. Why can't they just take these ideas and create their own character and story instead of making old characters and stories in to what they want? I would really love new characters and stories to come out.

[Garnef]

I am getting really tiered of seeing article after article demanding Nintendo change Link in to a girl, Link is almost as iconic as Mario and has been around for 29 years and I as a girl have no problem with Link being a boy. Why can't they just take these ideas and create their own character and story instead of making old characters and stories in to what they want? I would really love new characters and stories to come out.

I think the problem with this is that unlike other established characters, every Link in the Zelda series is a different character, so a female Link would certainly add variety to the series.

That said, I can see where you're going with this, changing and established character's gender or race is dumb. I just think Link was a bad example on your part.

[Skynstein]

I think the problem with this is that unlike other established characters, every Link in the Zelda series is a different character, so a female Link would certainly add variety to the series.

That said, I can see where you're going with this, changing and established character's gender or race is dumb. I just think Link was a bad example on your part.

I suppose we could see a Zelda game in which Zelda herself was playable. Now with Hyrule Warriors executing it well, it would make better sense than a female Link.

[Esau of Isaac]

I think if the character's cool then I don't really care. This is always such a big issue for a lot of people and it shouldn't be.

[Original Alear]

The next spiderman should be an African American Aunt May. Then she can be both Spiderman and Black Widow.

[Parrhesia]

"They could make new characters"

Yeah, and they do, but not ones as established as, say, James Bond. People know who he is, he's a cultural icon, shit like that. And the vast majority of these established characters throughout generations are white guys. Moves to change that from time to time should be welcomed.

[MacLovin]

So, there's talk of the next Spiderman being black or Latino and, since Miles Morales exists, it has been rumored Marvel would use him in the MCU instead of Peter Parker. However, I think Marvel pretty much confirmed Peter will be the Spiderman of the MCU, at least in the first few films, but that hasn't stopped people from wanting a black Spiderman. This would involve them changing Peter Parker's race, as Fox has done with Human Torch.

I personally am not fond of it. Yes, I know representation is important, and yes, I know the majority of relevant characters in Western culture is Caucasian, but still, I think changing race of a character is too drastic a measure. People have said Peter Parker's race doesn't matter, and it's quite funny to hear this since for a white character the race never matters, while black characters seem to be designed with race in mind. God forbid we have a white Black Panther; and I'm not asking for it, either. I do think Peter's Caucasian appearance matters somewhat. Peter is a stereotypical nerd, and those are usually portrayed as white skinny boys, at least from what I know.

Fox changing Human Torch's race was an idiotic move, because Johnny Storm is Sue's brother, and Sue is still very white in the upcoming film. It can happen that siblings from a multirracial relationship each have a certain appearance, but it's rare. It was very clearly a marketing move to create talk about a film that doesn't seem too stellar.

It's interesting to note that there doesn't seem to be much interest in creating new franchises with minority characters at the helm. It's an easier, and lazier, move to change race of a established character like James Bond than it is to create a new legacy with a new prominent black character.

This is not really only about race, but gender and sexual orientation, too, with Marvel turning Thor into a female to appeal to women.

So, what do you think of it?

Input:

-Miles Morales was conceived in Marvel's second most popular universe. AFTER Peter Parker died, in a storyline that was kind of decent.

-I'm not sure how to react to the changing of Johnny Storm. The Human Torch is a rather venerable name in Marvel's history, being one of their A-listers during the Golden Age [Jim Hammond] AND Johnny Storm being one of the more recognizeable of the Marvel Age heroes. I'm just sort of fucking pissed at the radical change.

I mean if you're gonna change a character, make it one that isn't as recognizeable [iris Allen in the Flash going from Caucasian-> Black. No big deal since she's not as recognizable as the Flash or his Rogues.], or make it a hero that has a semi-blank slate due to being obscure. [ I'm pretty sure if Fox needed to put forth a hero with Fire-based powers that wasn't white and had a recognizeable name, [Just fucking take someone like Stingray or Comet Man and make them black. They're pretty much C-list heroes with interesting premises.]

Or you could try establishing a hero that's already not white, like Sunspot of the X-Men/New Mutants. We've seen him in Days of Future Past's future battle. He'

-Before someone rags on the MCU Nick Fury for being black, I'd like to point out that the version comes from the Ultimate Universe. The Sam Jackson Nick Fury is in the mainstream Marvel Universe too, as Nick Fury Jr. [Nick Fury sort of died a while back.]

Changing icons this much is stupid. The Human Torch is one of the more iconic characters from Marvel.

[-Cynthia-]

If it's irrelevant then I don't mind it changing. I think the Human Torch change was kind of sloppy though, due to him having a sibling that is still white. Granted, in the previous Fantastic Four movies Chris Evans really doesn't look anything like Jessica Alba either.

[Skynstein]

If it's irrelevant then I don't mind it changing. I think the Human Torch change was kind of sloppy though, due to him having a sibling that is still white. Granted, in the previous Fantastic Four movies Chris Evans really doesn't look anything like Jessica Alba either.

Jessica is Latina but they whitewashed her for the part. :P

[Philax]

Despite having lots of non-white friends, I get annoyed when they change characters' races. I was quite annoyed when the Percy Jackson movie changed Grover from a white boy with long brown hair and a Rasta cap to a black guy. To make things even worse, they made him a black stereotype (speaking in "jive", ogling pretty girls, being a player - he doesn't do ANY of that in the book). Being that Grover is my favorite character in the books, I was mortified that such a cool character could be devolved into a racial stereotype. (Turning Annabeth from a curly blonde to a generic Hermione Granger/Bella Swan knockoff wasn't any better.)

I feel like it's usually done for tokenism, and the results aren't pretty. The failure of The Last Airbender pretty much proved that racebending is bad.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Philax

[ClevelandSteve]

My one complaint with the Johnny Storm change is, as other people have said, Sue Storm is still white. If they cast a black actress as her, I would have no issue with the change to her brother's race.

Since Link was also brought up, I'll just say that I'm fine with a female Link. I mean, Link is supposed to be an avatar for the player in the game (that's even why his name is "Link", because he is the link between the real world and the game. Also, it's why he never talks), and so, ideally, there should be some sort of gender select feature. But, barring that, since there's been thirty years of male-only Links, no guy on the planet, myself included, has a right to complain about a future incarnation of Link being female-only. Also, the whole thing about all the Links being different people creates a storyline justification for it and is why no one is calling for a female Mario (who is the same guy in every game) or something.

[Thor Odinson]

Don't really care unless race is actually relevant to the character

In this case Peter Parker puts on a mask and nobody can tell anyway, I don't give a fuck if they pick anyone as long as they do the role well

Unfortunately the amount of important and highly visible roles of white characters to nonwhite is greatly disproportional and there's a lot of talented actors who may or may not be white out there who honestly could play Spiderman to a T and since the dude is masked anyway why not let them do it if they prove to be the best for the role

May the best man win etc

with Marvel turning Thor into a female to appeal to women.

Also actually having read new female Thor, Thor did not get turned into a woman, someone merely has his hammer right now and Thor himself is still relevant and running around and doing things, just now he can't fly and uses a big axe and doesn't wear a shirt and he's trying to figure out who is the one his hammer answering to right now (I have it narrowed down to 2)

It's not the same as just changing him into a woman, new Thor is a completely different character, and Aaron said that she's someone who's already a part of Thor's support cast in previous issues of his run.

Also you do not need to actually turn Thor female to appeal to female readers, he's plenty appealing by himself anyway; Aaron simply wanted to do a "someone else gets the hammer" story in vein of the classic Simonson's Beta Ray Bill story ever since the get go of Thor: God of Thunder, and his reasoning was simply "if a space horse and a frog can use the hammer, why not a woman?" which imo is pretty sound reasoning

so check your goddamn facts

Edited February 28, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Loki Laufeyson]

"They could make new characters"

Yeah, and they do, but not ones as established as, say, James Bond. People know who he is, he's a cultural icon, shit like that. And the vast majority of these established characters throughout generations are white guys. Moves to change that from time to time should be welcomed.

I agree with this. And its not just my thirst for Idris Elba speaking. Theres really no reason why someone like Peter Parker or James Bond cant be black or Latino or whatever.

[Daichi]

Personally, I don't care if they make a black Spiderman or asian Robin. But a black Peter Parker or asian Tim Drake would annoy the hell out of me. The same thing would happen if they made a latino or white Cyborg. It fucks with established shit. And that just doesn't sit too well with me.

[Original Alear]

Personally, I don't care if they make a black Spiderman or asian Robin. But a black Peter Parker or asian Tim Drake would annoy the hell out of me. The same thing would happen if they made a latino or white Cyborg. It fucks with established shit. And that just doesn't sit too well with me.

Just to clarify, what you're saying is that you don't mind someone of different race/gender/etc taking up the mantle of a hero, you just don't want them to have mostly the same background/personality/origin story as the older heroes? Sorry if I misunderstood.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Severlan

[Daichi]

Just to clarify, what you're saying is that you don't mind someone of different race/gender/etc taking up the mantle of a hero, you just don't want them to have mostly the same background/personality/origin story as the older heroes? Sorry if I misunderstood.

Exactly.

[Sunwoo]

Funny enough, I had this discussion independently with one of my IRL friends yesterday.

Personally, I'm not super bothered by it but I can see why a lot of people would. I think it's less about "race" than it's really about "change", especially a change that some people deem unnecessary. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are some Marvel/DC heroes in which the name is the same but the person behind the costume changes, right? In the case of something like that, then a race or a gender change shouldn't be a problem since the hero has never been one person. On the other hand, if a certain character was ALWAYS the same character, never a different person, and established … then I can see why people would be annoyed.

I think my only real opinion is that if people are going to change an established character's race, don't do it for tokenism and don't make the character a fucking walking stereotype. It's always great to see heroes of different races and genders and whatnot in the superhero scene, but if you're doing it JUST for the sake of doing it … I think you're better off not doing it. Because then it feels less … what's the word, legitimate? Also, if at all possible, it might just be better off creating new superheroes who are non-white or not men since they have less "baggage" than characters who have been around forever.

[Lord Raven]

I suppose we could see a Zelda game in which Zelda herself was playable.

I don't think you want to see that Edited February 28, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Rehab]

Separate from any evaluation of your ideas about character race change:

So, there's talk of the next Spiderman being black or Latino and, since Miles Morales exists, it has been rumored Marvel would use him in the MCU instead of Peter Parker. However, I think Marvel pretty much confirmed Peter will be the Spiderman of the MCU, at least in the first few films, but that hasn't stopped people from wanting a black Spiderman. This would involve them changing Peter Parker's race, as Fox has done with Human Torch.

I personally am not fond of it. Yes, I know representation is important, and yes, I know the majority of relevant characters in Western culture is Caucasian, but still, I think changing race of a character is too drastic a measure. People have said Peter Parker's race doesn't matter, and it's quite funny to hear this since for a white character the race never matters, while black characters seem to be designed with race in mind. God forbid we have a white Black Panther; and I'm not asking for it, either. I do think Peter's Caucasian appearance matters somewhat. Peter is a stereotypical nerd, and those are usually portrayed as white skinny boys, at least from what I know.

Fox changing Human Torch's race was an idiotic move, because Johnny Storm is Sue's brother, and Sue is still very white in the upcoming film. It can happen that siblings from a multirracial relationship each have a certain appearance, but it's rare. It was very clearly a marketing move to create talk about a film that doesn't seem too stellar.

It's interesting to note that there doesn't seem to be much interest in creating new franchises with minority characters at the helm. It's an easier, and lazier, move to change race of a established character like James Bond than it is to create a new legacy with a new prominent black character.

This is not really only about race, but gender and sexual orientation, too, with Marvel turning Thor into a female to appeal to women.

So, what do you think of it?

I can't say I know what you mean by the bolded.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I don't think you want to see that

Assuming Nintendo would let it go to shit if they decided to make Zelda playable. Spoiler: They wouldnt.

Separate from any evaluation of your ideas about character race change:

I can't say I know what you mean by the bolded.

I think he means that being stereotypically nerdy is a white guy thing. Which is umm...quite frankly ridiculous.

I think my only real opinion is that if people are going to change an established character's race, don't do it for tokenism and don't make the character a fucking walking stereotype. It's always great to see heroes of different races and genders and whatnot in the superhero scene, but if you're doing it JUST for the sake of doing it … I think you're better off not doing it. Because then it feels less … what's the word, legitimate? Also, if at all possible, it might just be better off creating new superheroes who are non-white or not men since they have less "baggage" than characters who have been around forever.

Indeed. But figures like James Bond dont need to be white. The idea of a black Bond isnt for tokenism as much as Bond can be anyone British and suave. :B Black Bond wouldnt at all be stereotypical. He'd act just like any other Bond. Characters who's race matters to their story (see people like Black Widow) shouldnt be tweaked that way.

This is not really only about race, but gender and sexual orientation, too, with Marvel turning Thor into a female to appeal to women.

Shows how much you know about the Thor franchise. *snicker*

[Thor Odinson]

Also another thing of note is that, Marvel's Cinematic Universe itself has an official universe designation (Earth-199999, in comparison to Earth-616 for the Main universe and Earth-1610 for the Ultimate), making it an alternate universe to the comics to start with and not a straight comic adaptation.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Lord Raven]

Assuming Nintendo would let it go to shit if they decided to make Zelda playable. Spoiler: They wouldnt.

It helps that I made sure I wasn't in SD when I made that post, because I still think the CDi games are funny.

[Loki Laufeyson]

It helps that I made sure I wasn't in SD when I made that post, because I still think the CDi games are funny.

Ehh ive seen people use those as a serious argument against Playable Zelda. It is the most eye-rolling thing ever cuz Nintendo didnt make those.

Also another thing of note is that, Marvel's Cinematic Universe itself has an official universe designation (Earth-199999, in comparison to Earth-616 for the Main universe and Earth-1610 for the Ultimate), making it an alternate universe to the comics to start with.

That's true. If they ever reboot Blade, however, he should still be a black guy. I file him under Characters Who's Race Is Kinda Important.

[MacLovin]

Separate from any evaluation of your ideas about character race change:

I can't say I know what you mean by the bolded.

It's been 40+ years since Peter Parker was in High School.

Of course, he was doing fine before fucking one more day made him have a deal with the devil just to negate his marriage just so some fucking cunt of a writer could tell old fashioned spidey stories.

Also another thing of note is that, Marvel's Cinematic Universe itself has an official universe designation (Earth-199999, in comparison to Earth-616 for the Main universe and Earth-1610 for the Ultimate), making it an alternate universe to the comics to start with and not a straight comic adaptation.

Yah. I totally want to see this year's big Secret Wars event to cross over into the MCU.

Also, female Thor's interesting. We'll always have Thor Odinson, and he WILL eventually get his hammer back. Female Thor will probably go the way of Beta Ray Bill and become a nice B level hero. [Not like Thunderstrike who died after 12 issues of his own series. :/

Some character's don't really work outside of the race/gender they're in. Luke Cage would be kinda wierd as a white guy, and a female Wolverine and Thing already exists. [X-23 and She-Thing]

Hell, I want to see a female Dr. Doom.

and in reply to Boron's comment on costume changes and whatnot.

Longass post with potential spoilers.

-Legacy characters, such as Robin, the Flash, and Blue Beetle, work by passing on the name of a hero. In many cases, the mantle is passed post-mortem, or when the previous bearer retires.. [bruce Wayne "died" in Final Crisis. Dick Grayson becomes Batman.] Sometimes the the newer guy isn't even aware of the previous name-bearer. [Johnny Storm is a good example, in the early days. X-Men's Angel is another good one, since Marvel's first costumed hero was named the Angel as well.]

DC- I.E. Richard Grayson, the first first Robin passed the "Robin" identity to Jason Todd, then it got passed on to Tim Drake, then Stephanie Brown, then to Damien Wayne.

The costume changes between the people who wear it. [Except for Tim Drake, who went through 3-5 different designs.]

Hell, just about every major A list character in DC is a legacy hero of some kind. Except for Superman/Batman/Firestorm

A Marvel Example as well:

There have been many people to wear the Captain America costume, but half of them died in service. The most recent one is Sam Wilson, The Falcon. He's the first African-American superhero and has had a long running partnership with Steve Rogers, the first Cap.

But then again, Marvel's got their share of legacy heroes.

-Orginization types. -Green Lantern corps [sinestro Corps, Blue Lanterns, etc. you get the drift.] , Nova corps, Rocket Red Brigade, Shield Capehunters, Blackhawks.

Green Lanterns have the most diverse line of humans taking the mantle out of any well known superhero mantle.

- Similar costumed dudes.

Scarlet Spider, Spider Man, Spider- Woman, Arachne. You get the drift.