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So Game & Watch is banned in Japanese Doubles...


Knife
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Link: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2icb5a/anyone_know_why_gw_is_banned_in_the_latest_japan/

Do you agree? Personally, I can agree. Once you get a full bucket from your partner (which isn't hard depending on the projectile), you can OHKO anyone. It's not easy to dodge Oil Panic either with the lingering hitbox and follow-up from f-throw.

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Well, the video in the top post has a literal 17 second 2-stock game so... yeah, I agree with that ban for doubles. It's clearly broken. And since G&W can do something similar with any number of partners and not just Pikachu, it's best just to disallow G&W as a pick. Bear in mind Japan didn't even ban Metaknight from tournaments unlike some NA ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x60Rvt4kjXg

This is not conductive to tourney play at all, even for the for-fun events like doubles.

Edited by Samias
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Well, the video in the top post has a literal 17 second 2-stock game so... yeah, I agree with that ban for doubles. It's clearly broken. And since G&W can do something similar with any number of partners and not just Pikachu, it's best just to disallow G&W as a pick. Bear in mind Japan didn't even ban Metaknight from tournaments unlike some NA ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x60Rvt4kjXg

This is not conductive to tourney play at all, even for the for-fun events like doubles.

Exactly the same reason why that I suggest banning

What should be disallowed/banned...

-Assist Trophies(They interfere with the competing environment too much and make the matches too unpleasant.)

-Masterball(OP Pokemon really ruins the competing experience)

-Cross Hairs((The one you have to collect three items to activate it. It should be banned because it instantly kills anything that it touches.)

-Blaster Gun(It ranges most of the screen and it instantly kills anything that it touches.)

-Regular Boxes(They often carry too much items for help.)

-Exploding Boxes(They kill anything to whoever sets it off.)

-Super Mushroom(It gives your opponents a disadvantage and makes the user harder to kill.)

-Poison Mushroom(It gives your opponents an advantage over the user)

-Warp Star(It likely kills anything instantly that it hits and is hard to predict on how to dodge it.)

-Starman(OP. Makes you completely invincible for a limited time.)

-Metal Box(OP. Makes you harder to knockout against your opponents.)

-Flammable Food(Makes it hard to counter easily breaking shields and it never stops flaming until the item is done.)

-Slow Watch(Slows down the battle for your opponents giving the user normal speed.)

-Thunderbolt(Shrinks all opponents weakening them except the user a big advantage.)

-Bullet Bill(Instantly kills anything that it touches.)

-Hammer(Too OP and hard to stop.)

-Fast Hammer(Too OP and hard to stop.)

-Baseball Bat(Instantly kills anything that it hits.)

-Air Gun(Using this can brush opponents offstage and once used in the corner, the opponent cannot recover and he/she will die.)

-Drill(It instantly brushes whoever it hits offstage.)

-Bomb-Omb(Instantly kills anything that it hits above 30% and can be used as a throwing weapon to make it worse.)

-Explosive Device(Too OP and the radious is too wide to make it justifiable to use.)

-Pit hole(It traps whoever it hits leaving him/her helpless for ten seconds to buy your opponent time to using a finishing move on you.)

-Blue Spike(It instantly kills anything that it hits with opponents wasted above 60%)

-Blue Shell(It targets one of your opponents making it near impossible to dodge and can kill instantly.)

-Cucco(They run a muk across the stage everywhere instantly annihilating all opponents whoever gets hit by them.)

-Space Invader(It carries opponents to their dooms if they get hit by it's beam rays.)

-Franklin Badge(It reflects all projectiles off of you while that the item is in effect.)

these following items and weapons from all tournaments.

Edited by PuffPuff
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This isn't terribly surprising. Team attack doubles was probably not the dev team's primary focus during balancing. It does provide a good reminder of just how much balancing Sakurai and co. had to try to do, though. It's a miracle SSB4 is as balanced as it is, with a cast of 51. I definitely agree with the banning, as I don't see a problem with the community patching up the little balancing quirks the dev team overlooked.

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I'm not usually one for banning characters, but banning Mr. Game&Watch in doubles is completely reasonable. I mean the people on the receiving end of the attack were being one shotted.

Edited by Shulk
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I'm not usually one for banning characters, but banning Mr. Game&Watch in doubles is completely reasonable. I mean the people on the receiving end of the attack were being one shotted.

Makes it no competition/acceptable if they get killed in a single hit.

Edited by PuffPuff
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I for one, as an uninformed casual observer, support the ban on clear and obvious bullshit such at the G&W antics displayed in that match.

Exactly the same reason why that I suggest banning
What should be disallowed/banned...
[spoiler=literally a list you've copied, pasted, and posted like ten times]-Assist Trophies(They interfere with the competing environment too much and make the matches too unpleasant.)

-Masterball(OP Pokemon really ruins the competing experience)

-Cross Hairs((The one you have to collect three items to activate it. It should be banned because it instantly kills anything that it touches.)

-Blaster Gun(It ranges most of the screen and it instantly kills anything that it touches.)

-Regular Boxes(They often carry too much items for help.)

-Exploding Boxes(They kill anything to whoever sets it off.)

-Super Mushroom(It gives your opponents a disadvantage and makes the user harder to kill.)

-Poison Mushroom(It gives your opponents an advantage over the user)

-Warp Star(It likely kills anything instantly that it hits and is hard to predict on how to dodge it.)

-Starman(OP. Makes you completely invincible for a limited time.)

-Metal Box(OP. Makes you harder to knockout against your opponents.)

-Flammable Food(Makes it hard to counter easily breaking shields and it never stops flaming until the item is done.)

-Slow Watch(Slows down the battle for your opponents giving the user normal speed.)

-Thunderbolt(Shrinks all opponents weakening them except the user a big advantage.)

-Bullet Bill(Instantly kills anything that it touches.)

-Hammer(Too OP and hard to stop.)

-Fast Hammer(Too OP and hard to stop.)

-Baseball Bat(Instantly kills anything that it hits.)

-Air Gun(Using this can brush opponents offstage and once used in the corner, the opponent cannot recover and he/she will die.)

-Drill(It instantly brushes whoever it hits offstage.)

-Bomb-Omb(Instantly kills anything that it hits above 30% and can be used as a throwing weapon to make it worse.)

-Explosive Device(Too OP and the radious is too wide to make it justifiable to use.)

-Pit hole(It traps whoever it hits leaving him/her helpless for ten seconds to buy your opponent time to using a finishing move on you.)

-Blue Spike(It instantly kills anything that it hits with opponents wasted above 60%)

-Blue Shell(It targets one of your opponents making it near impossible to dodge and can kill instantly.)

-Cucco(They run a muk across the stage everywhere instantly annihilating all opponents whoever gets hit by them.)

-Space Invader(It carries opponents to their dooms if they get hit by it's beam rays.)

-Franklin Badge(It reflects all projectiles off of you while that the item is in effect.)


these following items and weapons from all tournaments.


oh thanks for reminding me
would still like an answer to
reading is tech

really though is there a reason you feel a need to post your personal list of items that you like everywhere you go, like a door-to-door evangelist going thread to thread to preach the word of God to everyone?

instead of, y'know, going with the whole "tournament host makes the rules, if you don't like any of them, make your own" thing
like I'm not sure what you think you're going to accomplish by posting a list of items you personally think are ~okay~ and then some passive-aggressive insults towards people who do use them


also lmao G&W isn't even on your list you're literally trying to shoehorn that in despite its obvious irrelevance

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What makes SSB4 Oil Panic different from Brawl Oil Panic?

It's a lot easier to fill SSB4's Oil Panic. Pikachu's Thunder is 4 hits in 1, which is why the bucket fills instantly. I think the list of moves G&W can catch has also increased greatly. Also, it looks like it splashes out a lot further than before and stays out with active hitboxes for a long time? I can't remember how the attributes in Brawl were comparatively because G&W pretty much never gets used by anyone.

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Exactly the same reason why that I suggest banning

What should be disallowed/banned...

- CUT

So items should be off like they are anyway? It's a good thing that's the standard!

It's interesting to see G+W banned whilst chain grabs in the past were a thing. I may be answering my own question, but I'm guessing it's because not everyone was chain-grabbable and it took some semblance of ability to pull off.

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So items should be off like they are anyway? It's a good thing that's the standard!

It's interesting to see G+W banned whilst chain grabs in the past were a thing. I may be answering my own question, but I'm guessing it's because not everyone was chain-grabbable and it took some semblance of ability to pull off.

I imagine it's also that chain grabs aren't quite as obviously egregious; ending a doubles match in literally 17 seconds is stupid.
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G&W was pretty neat in Doubles even in Brawl, since Pikachu's Thunder filled the bucket at once back then and OHKOed with amazing frame data as well.

The main difference is that Brawl is played with 3 stocks and the stages are generally wider, so it's not such a game-changer and people can deal with it. Whereas here, in a game where you die whenever you jump in the air makes dealing with Oil Panic absolutely horrendous.

"for-fun events such as doubles"

The Japanese take doubles seriously as shit. There are complete tournaments that are Doubles-only and they're always stocked full. It's not very important in other regions, after Japan doubles is generally played the most in the NA (and most teams don't even try there), but the Japanese community respects all forms of competition as much as 1v1.

Edited by mmKALLL
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that is actually super informative and useful to this topic and I knew essentially none of it

thank you for providing that insight

I'm aware that that whole post probably reads as entirely sarcastic and dismissive but I mean that entirely unironically

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Exactly the same reason why that I suggest banning

What should be disallowed/banned...

-insert item list here-

This thread is for banning a character, not an item. And to make it easier on yourself, just ban all items from your games since ANY item can give player(s) an unfair advantage. While you're at that, you can also go right ahead and ban every stage except Battlefield, Final Destination/Omega stages and Yoshi's Island.

And damn... Pikachu and Game and Watch work fast...

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Well, the video in the top post has a literal 17 second 2-stock game so... yeah, I agree with that ban for doubles. It's clearly broken. And since G&W can do something similar with any number of partners and not just Pikachu, it's best just to disallow G&W as a pick. Bear in mind Japan didn't even ban Metaknight from tournaments unlike some NA ones.

This is not conductive to tourney play at all, even for the for-fun events like doubles.

Holy shit, that's ridiculous. Seeing that, I got to agree.

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And that's a bigger threat than a Game & Watch who can kill things in less than 10 seconds? Honestly, at this point, there seem to be more benefits to turning off Team Attack due to the nature of Game & Watch's abilities.

Edited by Nexas
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And that's a bigger threat than a Game & Watch who can kill things in less than 10 seconds? Honestly, at this point, there seem to be more benefits to turning off Team Attack due to the nature of Game & Watch's abilities.

well with team attack off then you get projectile spam which is really boring to watch and boring to play against.

they could just make it so G&W has to partner with someone with no projectiles that he can use with the bucket.

Well, that's one way to look at it. But honestly, I'd consider it better to just cull the broken element than try to nerf said element, and allow a bunch of cheap tactics in the process.

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Just going to clarify that my posts weren't necessarily my actual thoughts, I just wanted to see what people would think of that.

Considering people thought Villager should've been banned due to the nature of his B Attacks, and eventually found good ways to counter it. I'm pretty sure they'll find a way to counter this strategy too.

People are jumping too conclusions far too fast with this ban. Yes, it's simpler to ban, but it also comes off as assholish, since a much more viable option, would be to try and find an efficient counter for this strategy. Smogon almost banned Baton Pass in the smogon metagame, because it was a "Cheap Tactic", however, they came to a reasonable conclusion, by realizing that there's enough counters for Baton Pass teams. Give it time, and if we can't find a good counter for it, then only then should the ban be even remotely plausible.

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Just going to clarify that my posts weren't necessarily my actual thoughts, I just wanted to see what people would think of that.

Considering people thought Villager should've been banned due to the nature of his B Attacks, and eventually found good ways to counter it. I'm pretty sure they'll find a way to counter this strategy too.

People are jumping too conclusions far too fast with this ban. Yes, it's simpler to ban, but it also comes off as assholish, since a much more viable option, would be to try and find an efficient counter for this strategy. Smogon almost banned Baton Pass in the smogon metagame, because it was a "Cheap Tactic", however, they came to a reasonable conclusion, by realizing that there's enough counters for Baton Pass teams. Give it time, and if we can't find a good counter for it, then only then should the ban be even remotely plausible.

Well, I'd say that banning G&W was better than risking a 4th gen Garchomp situation.

Edited by Levant Caprice
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People are jumping too conclusions far too fast with this ban. Yes, it's simpler to ban, but it also comes off as assholish, since a much more viable option, would be to try and find an efficient counter for this strategy. Smogon almost banned Baton Pass in the smogon metagame, because it was a "Cheap Tactic", however, they came to a reasonable conclusion, by realizing that there's enough counters for Baton Pass teams. Give it time, and if we can't find a good counter for it, then only then should the ban be even remotely plausible.

Okay, let's use competitive Pokémon logic scenarios for this, yeah?

So this ban is arguably comparable to that of the Gengarite ban; the base stats and ability gets seen, people can immediately see it's going to over-centralise the standard metagame, to the point it's unhealthy, people put it to practice, and, to nobody's surprise, it's overpowered as heck. Overall verdict declares it too unhealthy for an enjoyable yet fair metagame, so it gets chucked out very quickly. Simple as. The same thing is happening here

How do you find an "efficient counter" to something so obnoxious as MGAW's bucket in the 2v2 metagame, and Mega Gengar in OU? Sometimes, things just need to go.

And, since you brought up Baton Pass: that's never been terrible in Pokémon's metagame. Yes, if you don't have a phasing move it's hard to deal with, but the option has always been there. And it's still viable outside ruining Baton Pass-based teams. I've followed competitive Pokémon since around early 2008, and I've never heard anything about banning Baton Pass

Edited by Dusk Hunt Dodge
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