Kirby's Return to Mafia Land - Game Over

[Clarinets]

oh right

##Unvote: Refa

##Vote: Izhuark

[Mitsuki]

@SB: I hope to contribute significantly to the game later on, when scum post. Stay tuned.

It'd be pretty hypocritical for me to argue against the current cases when I'm asking people not to do the same for me and it wouldn't let the game advance, but it's worth mentioning that I have specific reasons to disagree with all of the cases presented so far, regardless of my reads on said slots. I'll talk about those later if people have a wagon at deadline, or before if I see it fit.

@Mancer: We're not wasting time rolespeccing, we're using rolespeccing to engage in discussion and decide one of the important parts of the game. Most people who rolespecced don't/didn't have reads at the time either. The fact that giving each role to someone different is a hard decision to make with no clear optimal results is not a valid reason to avoid discussing it. We can optimize results, at least to an extent, if we talk about what to do.

@Clarinets: If you want to hold against someone the fact that it was pointed out that everyone was Kirby you should hold it against me, since I am the one who suggested everyone could be Kirby first.

[Michelaar]

I need to vote. Please say if I do it wrong:

##Vote: Izhuark

[Mitsuki]

Sorry for talking about roles again, I think it's important to use the time when I don't have any actual reads to pursue to sort that stuff properly. I suggest that everyone makes a list of roles starting from the one we'd rather give to the person we consider the towniest person with the best play (the one we want alive the most) to the ones we'd rather give to the scummiest people (the ones we want lynched the most). Here's my list:

1- Bulletproof

2- Ninja/Watcher

3- Ascetic

4/5/6- Mystery roles

7- Empowerer

8- JoaT

9- Mayor

10- Tracker

11- Strong-Willed/Bodyguard (strong-willed is not very good for scum in this case since we'll know who this role goes to)

12- Vig (they kill next night, and who they vig is discussed D2)

13- Echofinder

14- Insomniac

Later we make a list from most townie player with the best play to the scummiest person. During twilight, we just sum all scores given for each role and assign the role with the lowest score to player with the lowest score (towniest), and so on. If we lynch scum and they mess the order we just erase the person and role affected from the final list and that's it. It's a bit tedious but it'll be worth it.

[Mitsuki]

@Michelaar: Since we're more or less out of RVS already, when you vote you should give the reason why you're voting who you're voting. It's ok if you're just agreeing with someone else, but it's important to point out why you agree as well. That people can see what you're thinking and get a better read on you. So, why are you voting Izhuark?

[solrocknroll]

I highly doubt that piling on Izhuark and accidentally hammering is a good idea. While I agree that casing Kirsche was sketchy, I also think that 5 votes and not being even 24 hours in is a bad combination when all it takes is 8 to hammer.

I'd be for lynching eventually or even putting pressure on, but 6 votes counting mine isn't a good idea yet.

No one but Izhuark has even done anything yet anyway tbh.

[Michelaar]

I read a bit trough this topic and I agree 100% with what SB said. The vote on kirsche seems really weird to me. He probably just votes to vote

[Life]

Lynch Blitz. I want EIMM to start already.

[Izhuark]

Arf... this game is taking the wrong direction for me, if it's continue like this. The hell to those old mafia habits to say "bah, rolespec is bad don't do it because it take away from actual scumreads." In a game were we have the freaking power to distribute ourselves the setup. If scum is lynched and don't follow the list if will give us more info depending on what he choose and unless the other scum are dumb everyone one else will follow it.

Yes there were no conviction in my vote on kirsche and no it was not forced, there were just no content at that time and for me, in this game, voting someone that just tried to help us rolespeccing was bad. So unless i'm that bad at mafia, i know that ED1 i should vote on the one that seem the most suspicious to me and to that point someone that vote on someone else without any point nor scumread seemed scummy for me.

[SB.]

Mitsuki reminds me of scorri from Kirby 1. Can you explain why you disagree with the Izhuark reads?

More to come, but I'd like to get a response out of Mitsuki first for reasons.

[SB.]

Also I'm not following any pre-determined list for role assignments because I think it's dumb and everyone's reads will inevitibly change in the last minute deadline scramble that always happens in SFMafia games.

[Refa]

##Unvote

Left my RVS vote on Izhuark because I didn't have any scumreads and figured it'd be better of pressuring a slot that had votes on it rather than doing nothing.

##Vote: Freyjadour

Something about his last post bothers me. It's not just the white knighting, but rather it comes across as...insincere. It feels like he decided to look at the thread, noticed Izhuark had a bunch of votes (despite never having talked about him before, which is bad if he was scumreading Izhuark) and decided to complain about them.

[Refa]

Also I'm not following any pre-determined list for role assignments because I think it's dumb and everyone's reads will inevitibly change in the last minute deadline scramble that always happens in SFMafia games.

This, except replace your reasoning for "I think it's boring" honestly. We can discuss peoples' reasoning for picking what they did on N1, or...not at all, I don't care.

[Randa]

##Vote: SB

Great, deadline is at 3 am for me. Definitely not missing that.

We'll have to more or less come with a decision at least 3 hours before that, because not only do I go to sleep way earlier, but I have my browser programmed so that it stops letting me access some websites (including SF) at some points, including 3 hours before deadline, so that I don't waste much time and I go to sleep early. I could technically remove that but what would be the point, if I set that kind of stuff and then removed it the first time it's slightly inconvenient for me.

Oh and I have an exam the 16th, I know that's pretty far away but I always hope I'm nightkilled early and it never happens. Just so that you know that I will be less active around 5 days before the exam.

I also have my browser set so that it prevents me from accessing SF at certain times during the day so I'll probably post walls. I know you all love walls.

Actual content:

Whoever gets the vig should be shooting in the next phase/relatively early (depending on the ratio of town/scum lynches we have) or be lynched. This is so that we make sure they're not scum saving the shot to make it easier to win lategame.

I mostly agree with Blitz with regards to roles to give, but I don't think bomb is that useful. I'd also prefer giving the towniest people roles that are scummy in nature, like ascetic/empowerer, just so that scum don't have them and they don't nightkill our good roles.

And finally, I'm self proclaiming myself as cleared because my PM is exactly the same as the sample PM in the OP. That is kind of a joke, but I thought it was worth mentioning. Unless we all are Kirby for some reason.

The bolded is more important than people probably realize. Vig needs to be given in one of the first 3 roles in my opinion. It needs to be given to the best townish players. Not necessarily the towniest. The towniest player may not fully utilize the roll which is why I believe it should be one the best towny player. I'll go more in depth on why I think the shot should be expended early in a minute.

Good, Izhuark is also town, even if scum are definitely also Kirby. As scum I don't see him posting that, he'd be afraid of making some sort of mistake. His second post is also townie because the idea is townie and good. Again, as scum I don't see him posting like that.

I forgot to mention this, but I don't want you guys to argue against my townreads either unless they contradict your reads. You can ask me to explain them better, I know a lot of the time it's hard to understand why I think a certain thing is telling.

Man I want to case someone already.

Sorry can you just explain the izuhark read a bit, is a legit read if so is it just because of the role pm thing, cause I'm not seeing anything towny or scummy about him ATM.

All these "can't be roleblocked or redirected" look suspicious, because I see no roleblocking or redirecting roles anywhere. Must be the Mix roles. Anyway,Archer - Scummy. Not being able to watch kills makes it less Townish than it usually is, and the Ninja effect makes it good for scum.Beetle - Townish. Scum should mostly be lynched so Townies are more worried about being shot.Echofinder - Townish. Aside from the one-shot JoaT network, only the Mafia really suffers from lack of OC. In fact, this should be the safest role to throw around because it can't be used against the Town if scum gets it.Mayor - Kinda scummy? Not being able to change the placement of the extra vote during the day makes it harder for Townies to use it right. Scum could get pretty dangerous near endgame if they have this role.Jack-of-all-Trades - Leaning towards Town. Comp Cop and Commute are pretty useless for scum, but great for Town. Safeguard seems more useful for scum in this setup, since there doesn't seem to be many roles that inflict negative effects here.Insomniac - Townish. This is also something that the Mafia can't really exploit if they get it, because all they can do is talk more.Vigilante - Either; leaning towards Scum. Both sides can make good use of this, but it's especially more dangerous in the hands of scum.Ascetic - Scummy. Not many roles inflict negative effects, so this wouldn't help much for Town. Scum benefits from bypassing the Cop and Tracker though.Bodyguard - Townish. Scum really can't benefit much from this because even if they protect a fellow scumbuddy from the Vig shot, they'll still lose one of their own.Empowerer - Useless. No roleblocking or redirecting roles here.Tracker - Townish. Information is good for Town since it can track killers, catch lies, etc. Scum wouldn't be able to utilize it quite as well, I think.Mix - Unknown.We should delay distributing the roles that are scum-oriented since Town wouldn't make much use of them. And we should be careful about allocating roles that would work well for either side, since we don't want scum to get them (especially the Vig). And yeah, we should give the Mix to Townish players since we don't want to risk letting the Mafia lying about their effects.

See this is why i enjoy doing role spec as anti-town, it doesn't say anything about alignment and you don't have to commit to reads. It just creates the appearance of content. With that being said this post is non-indicative of alignment it's just not useful. When I don't care earlier I didn't mean I don't care about whether or not we rolespec. I meant I don't care who was what roles. We don't need to talk about this and it should be obvious why. There's a role that goes to the scummiest person three roles focused on the towniest people and the rest aren't as important. In a 15 person game you should have a 4-6-4 set of reads. This means about half the game is gonna be closer to neutral then anything else. Reason is we know we have a confirmed 4 anti-town, every person except scum know they are town. 4 town reads means that if you're right you have endgame control. You're scum reads should be who you're willing to lynch that phase. It can be less than, but if it's only 1 or 2 people it's bad. The town reads should increase the less anti-town there is in the game. The longer the game goes the less neutral reads you should have but this early in the game the majority of players should be neutral. So why am I wasting time explains vote and read theory? Because it gets my point across. If we have solid reads on only half the game why are speculating how we're gonna assign every role. Any post about role spec should be nothing more than the roles we can't under any circumstances let scum have and which ones we want on scum. In addition it comes down to each players opinions and reads as to who is scummy and who is not. For example let's say proto has mitsuki as his top town read, but five people have a minor scum read on her. Who gets to decide what proto gives mitsuki, it's proto so mitsuki would get a towny role but this now makes five people read proto as scum cause he didn't listen to them but stuck to his read. You see the problem here. We're putting people in potential lose-lose situations. If proto gives mitsuki a scum role he goes against his read which is scummy, if he gives her a town role he's disobeying the group and that's scummy, regardless proto looks scummy.

tl;dr: we don't and shouldn't be rolespecing right now.

##Vote: Protofor trying way too hard.Unless echofinder counts as a kind of roleblocker then kek at the empowerer. I'm guessing mystery roles have something to do with it.Do mafia win just on parity? I mean, if it's 2 v 1 going into the last night but we have a bomb who guesses correctly, do we win? If so we should save the bomb as a last resort. Early warning that there's no mylo/lylo announcements but who am I kidding we're still probably gonna fuck it up.

Bolded is the point I was referring to earlier when I commenting about Vig. If mafia wins with parity, which it is confirmed they do, then there's no reason to hold the shot. Since we don't have to hold it we want to expended it early. The reason is the Vig is decided public ally so mafia's probably gonna just kill him.

Yeah I agree that we should do a list of person we should assign the roles to before the deadline but i think we should wait a bit that everybody posted actual content before doing so.

Also i think what Rainbow meant by delaying was to distribute them last because it's more easy to decide who we are giving towns role to rather than scum rules.

What are you doing kirsche ? I really don't get your point. Are you doing that just to get us out of rvs ? Because this is a really bad way to do so. If we don't know how to assign role at the end of D1 the game will have much more chance to be scumsided. On the other hand if we assign role smartly we will have the upper hand for the whole game.

##Vote : Executive Kirsche

Seriously this kind of comportment is at least anti-town.

There is one bad way to get town out of rvs and that's fake a cop result of scum and get doc lynched day 1. Also what is worst than anti-town? You say it's at least anti-town but the entire point is to kill anti-town. There's really nothing worse.

Kirsche, you make it sound like my post was an attempt to contribute in order to look Townish. I'm not. I was trying to analyze all the given roles and make suggestions for twilight phase, because I think role distribution is much more important to the game than Day 1 scumhunting (ftr I've always hated Day 1 scumhunting). I don't really care if you think I'm scummy for that, and no, I'm trying to pretend like my listpost is Townish so that people think I'm contributing. Go ahead and get me lynched if you want, but we should all still strive to optimize twilight phase and that's what I want to focus on.Also, when the hell did I imply that JoaT should be saved for last? I said we should delay allocating scum-sided roles, and listed JoaT as leaning towards Town.Anyway, I also think stuff like Echofinder and Bodyguard should be assigned to players that are hard to read, since even if they're scum, they can't hurt the Town much with those roles.I think Mayor should go to the most Townish player, because imo it has the greatest risk in the hands of scum (we can lynch the Vig if they save their kill for a suspiciously long time). On that note, Prims, will the Mayor vote be revealed during the Day Phase votals? Or at least in the votals at the end of the Day Phase?

I actually really want the answer to bolded. In addition day 1 scum hunting is more important then day 1 role spec IMO. See the above for the explanation.

I think Spear is important for town, because why would scum want to bodyguard someone when they'd likely be one of the ones targeting someone else.

Bomb needs to go to a townish person or else it could be very easily misused. It would be almost catastrophic.

The other roles might be able to go either way idk

And this is why role spec is useless. I don't agree at all that bodyguard should be given to town. It should be given to scum as it makes one of the scum not have a role. Me disagreeing doesn't give me any reads though it just means I disagree which doesn't help with reads at all.

Okay, I just got home and am a little bit overwhelmed reading the thread so far up to now. I don't really have a lot of lasting reads on all of the players because of all the speculation on what to do with the roles and such.

On this note, I dislike this post by Blitz encouraging players to engage in rolespec. However, I can't say that I see the scum intent behind it because it does seem like an attempt to generate discussion. The later part of the quoted post where he mentions that someone else should start the discussion seems like an attempt to fly under the radar while other players lead the discussion on.

This post makes me feel rather confused about what he could be planning though. On one hand, he makes a logical point. On the other hand, the point that he makes seems like a pretty obvious one and can be easily made by anyone. I'd like to hear more about your intentions behind the role speculation and whether you have obtained anything of note from the role discussion so far.

Also, [url\http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=61695&p=4266676%5DThis[/url] is a brilliant analysis of the roles that can be distributed.

Regarding the idea of deciding who to give what roles to: I don't think this is a good idea for a few reasons. Firstly, it wastes discussion time that can be spent scum hunting. Secondly, if scum is lynched, that scum can mess up the entire plan. Remember that the lynchee is the one that distributes the role during the twilight phase. Since we should be trying to lynch scum, it is highly probable that any plans we make will be messed up by the role assignment. I think that we should just let the lynchee decide (based on his own judgment) who to distribute the roles to and leave it as that.

##Vote: Izhuark

For one, I don't like his vote on Kirsche. It sounds rather... awkward and forced, in a way. I don't feel his conviction behind the vote as well, especially in the last line where he makes a mention that "[Kirsche's post/action] is at least anti-town".

What kind of anti-town do you mean? How do you see Kirsche's post/vote as anti-town? Do you find Kirsche scummy as opposed to just being anti-town? What about considering the fact that Kirsche might just be town with a different idea/outlook?

I don't really like this post. The points about blitz feel forced. It would be fine if he made the points immediately after blitz posted but because blitz stopped posting shortly after he proposed role-speccing, which means him asking somebody else to do it was probably due to time constraints, which mancer, a veteran mafia player, should recognize and acknowledge during his read. In addition the second point is useless and not even really a point. It actually make no sense to me. I mean what was the point of saying he makes a good point but it should be obvious. If it's obvious it's not really a good point cause it doesn't contribute to the conversation or the game. If it's good then it stimulates conversation or is something people might've missed. It can't be both, which is kinda why the whole blitz read seems forced.

We have very different opinions on what the word brilliant means. Because, ignoring the fact I don't think we need role-spec in the game ATM, I didn't find anything really impressive about proto's post it was pretty much just stuff people should already know and understand, another reason rolespec isn't helpful, and it doesn't add anything to the game.

The izuhark vote is fine for the time it was made, I consider it the actual start of the wagon because he only had two votes on him at the time and then it somehow jumped to 5 in the blink of an eye. It's the same points other's have made but given the lack of content in thread that's fine IMO. But I feel like his blitz read had more conviction to it than his izuhark read, and his izuhark vote was more to not stand out early.

With all that being said

##Unvote

##Vote: Mancer

[Mitsuki]

##Vote: Freyjadour

I had the same sort of feeling as Refa, and I agree with his point. In my case I'm more bothered by the fact that Freyjadour just accepts that Izhuark could either be lynched or not at deadline, and he mentions he'd be ok with the lynch, but he doesn't give his thoughts on him.

The thing that I find the most scummy about him, though, is how he's posting a lot of useless stuff and repeating things. The few original things he's posted aren't good, either, which doesn't help him. I was wondering if he was just a new player from another community who felt the need to post about that stuff because he didn't know how stuff works at SF mafia, I didn't realize that was Freyjadour until Refa voted for him. So it feels like he's just repeating stuff for the sake of seeming contributing.

I'll talk about Izhuark in my next post.

[Sunwoo]

Uh.

I think Proto's giant list post in page 2 is basically a whole lot of nothing, all of it is coming off as "no duh" kind of material. But that said, I am not reading it as scummy. I wouldn't call it trying too hard, just not being good at deciding what's important and what is not. And from my previous experiences playing with Proto, he has a tendency to role- or character-spec a lot anyway.

Don't like Izuhark's vote on kirsche at all. Why is kirsche's post scummy? Your initial vote on kirsche just sounds like you think he doesn't want to "assign roles smartly", but that's according to your definition of assigning roles smartly. Why is he scum and not just someone with a different opinion? I don't feel great about Izuhark at this juncture, but I also don't like how fast the wagon on him built up. So I feel like I need to look at his wagon again before voting here.

Something about Clarinet's post is bothering me. It feels like it has too much padding in it, and he doesn't seem to explain reasons for the reads he has too much. Why is Mancer's post genuine? Why quote a giant SB-post if you're going to say you don't know what to make of it and just agree on a minor Mitsuki point? I'm not seeing a lot of original reasoning here and a lot of filler posts that don't add anything at all, definitely not happy about this.

Michelaar, no. And do you have any other opinions on people who are not Izuhark?

Freyjadour, what the fuck are you doing? Not even 24 hours has passed in the game, why are you acting like lynching Izuhark is a foregone conclusion because "he's the only one who's done anything"? IT'S BEEN LESS THAN 24 HOURS IN A 72 HOUR PHASE SO WHY. If you don't like the votes on Izhuark, then why? Do you think he's townie? If so, why? Do you think the wagon just built up too fast? Seriously, explain your thought process or else we're going to end up with a repeat of Realm of Mirrors.

##Unvote

##Vote: Clarinets

Needs more justification and original explanation of his reasonings. Reads like he's trying to seem like doing more than he really is. More confident about Clarinets than Freyjadour, if only because Freyjadour's play is cuckoo.

[solrocknroll]

I exactly think the wagon's formed too soon. Trying to make a choice on someone within 24 hours is a mistake, and Izhuark had 5 votes out of 8.

I don't think Izhuark made a good choice by trying to case Kirsche this early, but I also think that it doesn't mean that he's automatically scum. A few players haven't even posted yet. That's also what I meant by "did something" in that he was the only one forming a case with all of the rolespec happening. It's important to figure rolespec out, but it doesn't mean everything else should be obscured.

I also think that trying to arrange a role list is easily failed. It can lead to a scum giving the worst role to the towniest player first. If they gave the best role immediately, it could also lead to mistrust.

[Randa]

I exactly think the wagon's formed too soon. Trying to make a choice on someone within 24 hours is a mistake, and Izhuark had 5 votes out of 8.

I don't think Izhuark made a good choice by trying to case Kirsche this early, but I also think that it doesn't mean that he's automatically scum. A few players haven't even posted yet. That's also what I meant by "did something" in that he was the only one forming a case with all of the rolespec happening. It's important to figure rolespec out, but it doesn't mean everything else should be obscured.

I also think that trying to arrange a role list is easily failed. It can lead to a scum giving the worst role to the towniest player first. If they gave the best role immediately, it could also lead to mistrust.

The bolded seems really I'm gonna say bad. Made a good choice trying to case kirsche seems like something you would say to a scum buddy, not something you would say about a bad case. It's really bad. I don't know if it's misspeaking or a legit some scum slip, I'm inclined to believe it's the latter rather than the former.

##Unvote

## Vote: Ms. bunch

[solrocknroll]

I said I don't think, not I do think.

[Randa]

I'm really conflicted on whether it's inherently scummy or just bad tbh.

[Randa]

I said I don't think, not I do think.

That doesn't change the point. It seems like you're telling a scum buddy he made a mistake rather than disagreeing with a case.

[Sunwoo]

I exactly think the wagon's formed too soon. Trying to make a choice on someone within 24 hours is a mistake, and Izhuark had 5 votes out of 8.

I don't think Izhuark made a good choice by trying to case Kirsche this early, but I also think that it doesn't mean that he's automatically scum. A few players haven't even posted yet. That's also what I meant by "did something" in that he was the only one forming a case with all of the rolespec happening. It's important to figure rolespec out, but it doesn't mean everything else should be obscured.

I also think that trying to arrange a role list is easily failed. It can lead to a scum giving the worst role to the towniest player first. If they gave the best role immediately, it could also lead to mistrust.

If you think the wagon formed too soon, then which do you think are the scummiest votes on the wagon? Do you think any of them even are? Why are you only putting in the minimum effort in explaining yourself and trying to find scum?

[Refa]

I bet Randa is scum.

Boron, how does Clarinets' post have too MUCH padding? It's just one sentence replies to all of the previous posts.

[Randa]

You caught me Refa

[Refa]

I should clarify about the Randa thing. Clarifying is good. Basically the long ass post with barely any content in it reminds me of what he did in Shovel Knight Mafia (also, I mean, that kind of stuff is scummy by itself so it's not even just a meta thing). Also his voteswap to Freyjadour because of a perceived scumslip is uh what because scumslips are a myth AND it's weaker than what he had on Mancer. Not sure if he's better or worse than Freyjadour because I literally can't parse Freyjadour's responses to the cases on him for the life of me.