Almost OC Mafia - Game Over

[CT075]

ok how did i even miss this (also forum is at reasonablespeed)

Reaction tests aren't scummy and people who say that are dumb, but I'm not pulling a reaction test so it's a moot point.

it's only pro-town if you get anything out of it otherwise i can do something like I'M COP THIS GUY IS SCUM and then turn around and say it was a reaction test

[Junk]

it's been stated that she does

No it hasn't. You are going based off the assumption that she did indeed think that was a scummy move. It may imply that she thought she thought it was scummy but she never explicitly said it herself from what I can remember. gtg now so will answer other question later

[CT075]

a clearly antitown post

[CT075]

answer the question

[CT075]

You are going based off the assumption that she did indeed think that was a scummy move.

a) how/where

b) which leads me to conclude that...

[CT075]

(shh it's easier to become manix than to actually try to compile a quote wall with sf like it is)

I don't really like Euk atm either. He kinda simplified GP's reasoning to the point where it looked scummy.

how

[FrostyFireMage]

how

he worded it in a way that makes her sound more scummy than she is

[CT075]

he worded it in a way that makes her sound more scummy than she is

how

[Eurykins]

Whee~ home. Hi thar guys. :D

Huh, stuff's already gettin' started? Okay then.

- FFM? That was a highly unnecessary claim, imo. Things like Miller, PGO, etc. that can negatively affect townie results/roles are those that are meant to be said- definitely NOT VT. (Since, if you are town, the only "power" you have is the ability to post and vote in-thread.) ;/ Your slightly sarcastic remarks wrt your gaming experience is also liable to leaving bad marks/vibes in the rest of us as well.

Also, yeah, we all know that Refa's a scummy bastard who sells other scum down river. But I don't think you'd have/find the need to get defensive/paranoid due to the Resistance game, unless you're implying/worrying about the same tactic playing out with him being scum (but also, you yourself were scum in that game as well, so....).

"Also not a fan of BBM either. Calling GP scummy when the game has barely left RVS and basically copying Euk's reasoning doesn't really sit well with me."

1. People can call out someone for being/playing scummy during RVS or right after it ends. I don't see the issue here.

2. Sheeping a case isn't necessarily a scum tell. Town can sheep cases just as well.

3. The vote for Euklyd in the post (that I got this quote from) = also feels like you're kinda sheeping a Euklyd case from DO NOT POST EDITS GUY, since part of his reason behind the vote was that Euklyd was skimming (and thus responded with thin/over-simplified/non-detailed cased). Pot meet kettle? Baa baa?

In addition: What is that vote on Camtech for?

- Refa's vote on FFM feels easy, and I'm not sure how/why he (FFM) is considered "overzealous scum" for his claim/remarks.

Also, the timing of said vote did feel a bit overeager (literally posted 2 minutes after FFM's post/remark?), which is where I believe Shinori's argument stood.

In addition, I don't feel like your case IS the same as GP's. Looking at the thoughts/cases, yours seem more based on FFM's reactions and the rather snarky responses; not so much based on the fact that he claimed VT. GP's resides on the fact that just DOING the claiming thing was a bad/questionable play. (And given Resistance [especially how it ended], I can see why FFM could potentially feel more frustrated/annoyed wrt reaction to you/your assertions. So in that case, the possibilty is there that the reaction was genuine townie frustration/annoyance.)

- GP seems a little prickly/defensive wrt the voting thing, but it's nothing I haven't seen before (and I actually believe that Poly's notion to nudge/prod GP into voting FFM seems a bit odd.), in terms of not casting votes that often. Though this statement feels/sounds weird: "I'm not confident that anyone I could vote based on content at this time is more likely scum than not." It's ED1- you're not exactly expected to have super solid reads or scum tells, and that in itself shouldn't restrict your will to vote. Whether it's a prod/pressure vote for more information/reaction, or just the weirdest/potentially scummiest thing you seem to notice, I don't think anyone expects/places a vote at this time with the intent of a super solid/sure case behind it.

The vote on Euklyd feels bad to me given the timing (and she jumps from not voting on someone earlier [FFM] who did something that was not pro-town (can be assumed it falls under the category of 'Anti-town' interests if not "pro-town"?) to voting Euklyd based on his post/finding him scummy for it). In addition, I don't necessarily see "Hesitation to vote" as not being a possible scum-tell in general (if it makes it seem as though people are not committing to where their thoughts/reads are at the time and used to distance themselves for any given reason = I'd find that a bit scummy imo). And while scum hunting, I don't think it necessarily is also scummy to just point out the first thing that seems odd/sticks out to you and mentioned that first and foremost without concerns for the rest of the "filler" gameplay. Sometimes unnecessary posts clog up the thread and honestly, I sometimes don't even pay attention to what I see as petty arguments/exchanges that (from my PoV) I see little to nothing gained from it (in terms of scum/townie gameplay/intent).

Also, this statement rubbed me the wrong way: "If I was going to OMGUS vote someone, I'd have voted you last page." This doesn't nullify the fact that you basically pulled an OMGUS vote on Euklyd at all, nor does it really make your case/post look any better. In adddition, (from what I saw) you'd look defensive as fuck for no reason if you had voted for BBM as a sort of OMGUS vote, in which case that'd seem 10x worse than the Euklyd vote. (So, logically speaking, you wouldn't risk doing something like that, and stating that you "could've done x if I really wanted to do y" doesn't really do anything for you?)

- Euklyd's vote in itself seemed reasonable/justified (based on GP's gameplay/posts thus far), but what bothers me about it is how the post itself felt; it felt like he was skimming across the surface of the water and not really giving any in-depth reason/post info to fully validate the vote. If someone seems scummy to you, I'd expect to see more than a simple one-liner with more thoughts/reasons behind it.

- Poly's play so far has seemed... weird? The notion to GP to vote FFM also feels quirky/off (feels like a means to bait a reactionary vote/response from GP?). In addition: "There's plenty of people who come off as passive-aggressive as town or as scum here on SF. This isn't a relevant point." feels like a misrep of what Refa had said, and I also feel that, whenever players are passive-aggressive, there's generally a reason why. So I don't see this logic/statement as being solid either in any regard.

- DO NOT EDIT POSTS GUY: For one: "To start off I agree with Poly that BBM's vote bothered me because I don't see the point of his vote in the first place." Uhhhh.... I don't know if I missed it, but I don't recall Poly ever mentioning about BBM's post/vote in-thread...?

"What makes GP scummy to you BBM? ...Green Poet I guess is an interesting one. Gp on Frosty's post about his experience did you think it was a scummy post?" Why are you asking questions we already know the answers to? I feel like this is padding in your post that I don't really like at all. (Fabricated/forced content and interaction with players in the game.)

"I don't see how not voting for someone is scummy especially at this point in the game where it is important to go over content carefully first before voting someone based off actual content."

1. It's barely moved out of RVS. How much of the content are you expecting to "carefully go over first before voting someone"? From raw experience (and seeing others do so as well), I've voted people purely based on gut reads/vibes until I can strengthen the case(s) later on with actual in-thread content.

2. How is sitting on your vote during the time of RVS/right before it ends and otherwise refusing to vote during that time seen as a pro-town move? Withholding votes has a habit of stagnating the progress of games, as it yields no pressure, thoughts, or reads from people as a result, so it doesn't get the ball starting and rolling.

".An experienced player like Eulyd I am sure knows this." You repeat this phrase again later in the case against Euklyd.

1. Are more experienced players not allowed to skim/offer shallow cases, and instead must elaborate every vote/case in detail?

2. Why is half of your argument "He should know this/probably knows this", as opposed to based on his posting content? This feels like you're fluffing up the vote on Euklyd and trying to force-feed us a case on him when there's not much being put on the table.

"He totally fails to account for what others have said as well."
This argument can technically apply to multiple people who've posted so far in this game.

@BBM and Cam and Shinori: I want to hear more from you guys.

- BBM put up his case wrt GP. What're your thoughts on the rest of the players so far?

- Cam put up a wall of quotes that yielded mostly questions towards the people he was responding/posting to. What're your actual thoughts/reads on people atm?

- Shinori was around at the RVS phase, but then poofed with the notion:

I can see where you're coming from, I just disagree with it.

##Unvote:

NOW WE WAIT FOR MORE PEOPLE.

More people have appeared. Thoughts?

GP and DO NOT EDIT POSTS GUY seem the scummiest atm, followed closely by FFM.

##Vote: Green Poet

[FrostyFireMage]

GP is trying too hard to avoid tying herself down to a vote/reads; she's saying "oh this could maybe be scummy but I'm not really reading it as scum right now, I don't know who is scum so I won't vote..."

This is scummy.

Basically this

She's been using pretty sound reasoning but the way he says it it sounds like she's just being indecisive and fickle.

[Shin]

Man, I feel like I should be doing something crazy, like self-voting... or investing in REAL ESTATE. In fact, I might even give my mother a phone ca-... never! It's also neat how SF's working again, but I digress!

With regards to GP, whilst there's very little harm in putting down a vote at this stage, it's clear that GP's put at least some input in. I'd be more concerned if there were no vote and no content, but what she's considering is pretty apparent. Still, the knee-jerk reaction vote seemed a little off considering the previous point. Euk's vote was bad though.

Sheep do say baa! Dem Junko and FFM votes.

I feel the FFM situation got blown out of proportion. I have no idea what would possess someone to claim so early, and I feel, whilst it was bad, Refa's vote was taken a little too seriously. I agree with Cam that Poly in particular seems rather hardline about things, Shinori not quite as much so. Refa's thing was the scummiest thing that had happened for a fair while, but in the grand scheme of things, it's pretty eh.

##Vote: Poly

The vote pressure seemed a little weird, as did the pseudo-defense of FFM. Has your opinion changed on Refa after his recent posts?

[CT075]

In addition: What is that vote on Camtech for?

who's even voting me

- Cam [...] What're your actual thoughts/reads on people atm?

i don't have any that's why i ask questions

even if i did i don't see the value in spilling my guts on the table for everyone to see

She's been using pretty sound reasoning but the way he says it it sounds like she's just being indecisive and fickle.

in what way is that not accurate

[CT075]

in what way is that not accurate

(note: i do have an answer in mind)

[Eurykins]

who's even voting me (1)

i don't have any that's why i ask questions (2)

even if i did i don't see the value in spilling my guts on the table for everyone to see (3)

1. This is what I was referring to/asking about:

...Or not.

##Vote: Camtech

That's Hazama, unenlightened one!

2. Fair enough.

3. I understand that some thoughts/knowledge is better kept under wraps (IE. roles, flavor, etc.). So in that sense, I can partially agree with you.

But letting us know your reads/thoughts on people based on in-game/thread posting content is part of the game, in the sense of letting us know where you stand with people. It validates votes, and otherwise lets us see/understand the logic/cases from your standpoint. Also, I asked because those who bottle their thoughts and hide their reads often have reasons to do so, which is cause for concern if supposed townies are feeling nitpicky about reads and inputting their own thoughts/opinions upon the cases being displayed and on the players themselves in the thread/game.

[FrostyFireMage]

i don't have any that's why i ask questions

even if i did i don't see the value in spilling my guts on the table for everyone to see

in what way is that not accurate

you do realize people could interpret that as scummy, right? if you weren't so honest about it I'd be almost certain you were scum.

and GP's been one of the more active players and bringing up good points (although that may all be a scheme to have us trust her so she can mislead us) but Euk seems to be focusing more on how it took her so long to make a vote and making it sound more noteworthy than it is. Feels like she's just brainstorming IMO

at least that's what it seems like to me. Euk still seems the most scummy to me so far

[FrostyFireMage]

and that Camtech vote was mostly out of the belief that RVS was still going on - I didn't realize "chainsaw" was an actual term used in Mafia and thought Cam was voting Poly because of the character in his avi =/

soz

[CT075]

you do realize people could interpret that as scummy, right? if you weren't so honest about it I'd be almost certain you were scum.

explain

[sNIP]

i'll be happy to elaborate on anything in particular i've said or done (or about anyone in particular) except in the few cases (there are some this game) where i'd rather keep silent for now - a catch-all "what are your reads" is an incredibly vague request and i'm not even sure i'd be able to say anything helpful anyway

furthermore, even in the case that everything i've said needs to be under wraps for some reason or other, you can always tell who my top priority scumread is, because that's where my vote is.

[Shinori]

Holy fuck Cam is like posting.

Also Eury's post is like a massive wall of already stated stuff, at least the first half of it is.

I also don't quite feel like making a big post but I'll put down brief thoughts while I'm here.

Don't like GP's post but mainly because I agree with this statement by BBM: "There is 0 reason to wait around for more people instead of voting FFM, who GP considers is the scummiest person in the thread atm. Her language wrt him is super waffly, because she just says he's "not pro-town" but then all her comments, like "using his lack of experience to justify his play" makes it look like she finds him suspicious."

If GP found FFM scummy she should vote, not wait for other people. Then I found the euk vote weird. It seems awkward.

Also don't really like Junko's posts. He pretty much only comments on BBM and Euk while ignoring GP who seems to be at the center of a lot of attention. Junko what are your opinions on GP? If you have a read on Euk you should have some sort of read in GP.

##Vote: Junko

[FrostyFireMage]

explain

well if you keep on asking questions without giving your opinions people won't be able to get a good read on you and assume you're trying to hide something

[CT075]

and what exactly about my honesty makes you think i'm town

i have other things to say but i want to hear an answer to this first

[Eurykins]

i'll be happy to elaborate on anything in particular i've said or done (or about anyone in particular) except in the few cases (there are some this game) where i'd rather keep silent for now - a catch-all "what are your reads" is an incredibly vague request and i'm not even sure i'd be able to say anything helpful anyway

furthermore, even in the case that everything i've said needs to be under wraps for some reason or other, you can always tell who my top priority scumread is, because that's where my vote is.

Bolded part, I have no issues with. It was just the feeling of seeing almost purely prodding/questioning without any direct feedback from yourself as to what you were thinking wrt the rest of the players (minus... Poly, I think it was?).

Italicized is also fine (logically people are going to vote for who they believe is scummiest or otherwise most deserving to be lynched for that day phase).

The underlined I'm having some issues with grasping, since townies generally don't have issues in being honest in their reads on people. Yes, maybe they may adjust/skew them in lieu of not making themselves obvious (if it threatens power roles, etc. in terms of predictability/priority/etc), but aside from that, I dunno. Not seeing the pro-town aspect of that tactic, but maybe it's just a difference in preference of playing style (to me, purposely withholding thoughts that can have some relevance to a discussion/topic at hand and stating otherwise/hiding it = basically lying to the rest of the players/townies, so maybe that just rubs off the wrong way to me because I prefer not to do so as town).

[CT075]

a) the underlined scenario isn't the case right now (and i'm not even sure that would happen with my style anyway)

b) for the most part i'm only going to deliberately hide things when i feel that it'll interfere with something else i'm trying to pull (a good example would be my current discussion with FFM - I do have thoughts on the matter that I'm not saying, but I don't want to give a potential scum!FFM an easy answer to my questions)

[FrostyFireMage]

and what exactly about my honesty makes you think i'm town

i have other things to say but i want to hear an answer to this first

if you're not apprehensive about people knowing you're being secretive it makes you look more confident and such

my opinion on you now is liable to change you know

[CT075]

wrt hiding reads i just prefer to not introduce random other suspects into a discussion unless i really feel like it's relevant/necessary because i feel that adds confusion (maybe i'm not a good judge of this but i think my posts have a good done enough job to hint at where i'm leaning anyway?)

[CT075]

if you're not apprehensive about people knowing you're being secretive it makes you look more confident and such

which makes me town because...

my opinion on you now is liable to change you know

cool story bro