RNG Abuse

[Darros]

So, RNG Abuse. That lovely way to get an important critical/hit.movement star/what have you. Some people are totally for it, others think it's just wrong. So I ask you, SF Drafters, what do you think is reasonable for RNG abuse?

Personally, I think that RNG abuse is totally fine, and if I wasn't so lazy (and it wasn't a PITA in FE4 which I main) I'd take more advantage of it than I currently do. I'm a bit iffy on 1% crits/high dodges, but I understand that it's important to get that stuff in sometimes to shave turns.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Folgore Blue

[General Horace]

Well for me

FE4 - Rig kills on bosses that are pricks and have great shield, and the arena, bigtime

GBA - killer weapon crits

DS - nothing, really, i don't really know how to abuse in FE11 tbh

rigging levelups is lameeee

unless its getting Sigurd two strength levels on the way to jungby.

[Peppy]

Level ups for when the Character is getting RNG Screwed with an important stat or just in general...

[PKL]

Im against low odds RNG abuse like 1% crits. But consider it fine for some stuff like a crucial hit on a stupid boss on a throne. EDIT: oh and i totally condone resetting for blank levels/rng screwage on crucial characters.

Edited April 20, 2012 by PKL

[Darros]

DS - nothing, really, i don't really know how to abuse in FE11 tbh

Suspend, then resume.

Or (I think) just change the clock.

[Sunwoo]

My stance is pretty much: "don't rig RNGs for ridiculous stuff."

Like ...

Single-digit crit percents

>80% displayed enemy hits to miss

Stuff like that ...

[CT075]

Well for me

FE4 - Rig kills on bosses that are pricks and have great shield, and the arena, bigtime

GBA - killer weapon crits

DS - nothing, really, i don't really know how to abuse in FE11 tbh

rigging levelups is lameeee

unless its getting Sigurd two strength levels on the way to jungby.

basically this

i never go for levelups and the only time i go for other stuff is if it's more than a ~35% chance (and it's completely necessary) and i only need one of them.

[aku chi]

I'm entirely against RNG abuse in drafts I participate in. There's nothing fun (to me) about reseting the game. And if I'm not having fun, why am I playing? I don't care what people do in drafts that I don't participate in, of course.

[Ciarre]

Im against low odds RNG abuse like 1% crits. But consider it fine for some stuff like a crucial hit on a stupid boss on a throne. EDIT: oh and i totally condone resetting for blank levels/rng screwage on crucial characters.

Pretty much. Especially Micaiah and your DB character, unless it's Zihark or Volug. I never reset for Ike's team though.

[Konnor97]

I usually RNG abuse to get out of a dumb situation I've put myself into, but I think that I can get out of. Otherwise, meh, it's to get a crit with like ~15% to go or to hit with like a 60-70-some%. I'm all for it, except in those cases of get a 2% or dodge a 94%, or whatever.

[MacLovin]

BEXP abuse should be àttempted with units that are

-never there

-have shaky growths in important areas(lucia, Miccy, Rhys)

Also, RNG abuse for fe6 seems understandable, but for fe7 and fe8 its not really needed.

Fe9 RNG abuse is rigging perfect bexp lvls, and we have bexp tables to limit the dumping.

Personally, the units I use co-operate-so the only stuff I'll do is bexp abuse for Resolve!Miccys speed or rigging fe6 units to bosskill faster.(Fuck 30 avoid thrones and acc. Bug)

So, its ok as long as its not taken to ridiculous ends.

(Fe6 Barth capping res and spd by 20/1..or some shit like that.)

[Bluedoom]

I've only played the DS games for drafts, but:

I've rarely RNG abused in FE7/FE8, so I think its generally not need.

RNG abuse in my eyes is rigging lvls for certain procs(I accept this in lets say, a Lunatic Mode draft or H5 draft in FE11/12)

Also rigging crits less than 15% is bad( I do try and see if Marth gets lucky with a Rapier crit, but if he doesn't, too bad.)

Rigging to get enemies to miss you at hit rates of 70 + is absurd(60's is just alright, and certainly acceptable for hit rates below 60)

[Toothache]

First of all, it's a complete fallacy to label it as RNG abuse. "RNG manipulation" is a more accurate term.

Second of all, why not take advantage of something that is a part of the game? Think of it this way - every time you make an action or attack, you're using the RNG. While you may not know what is coming up, you are still using the RNG. Suppose for example, you come across an enemy 1% crit which kills a unit you want to use. So, you reset. Now what do you do? If you do something different to avoid the crit, you're manipulating the RNG. If you change the order of what units of yours attacks, you're manipulating the RNG. If you move the cursor in a different way, whether intentionally or not, you're manipulating the RNG.

Basically, every time you load a map, and start fighting your way through it, you're basically negotiating the RNG. Whether you like to admit it or not, every time you play the game, you're still at the mercy of the RNG. So, what have you got to lose by making use of the ability to manipulate the RNG in your favour? The game is programmed that way, after all, so it's basically as much a part of the game as anything else.

We need to change our thinking on the RNG. It isn't abuse, it's manipuating events in our favour. It's a perfectly normal, natural part of the game and should be treated as such.

[Shin]

FE4 bosses and arenas only! I prefer to suffer the consequences, even if it does mean I have a Dorcas with 10 or so speed.

[eclipse]

First of all, it's a complete fallacy to label it as RNG abuse. "RNG manipulation" is a more accurate term.

Second of all, why not take advantage of something that is a part of the game? Think of it this way - every time you make an action or attack, you're using the RNG. While you may not know what is coming up, you are still using the RNG. Suppose for example, you come across an enemy 1% crit which kills a unit you want to use. So, you reset. Now what do you do? If you do something different to avoid the crit, you're manipulating the RNG. If you change the order of what units of yours attacks, you're manipulating the RNG. If you move the cursor in a different way, whether intentionally or not, you're manipulating the RNG.

Basically, every time you load a map, and start fighting your way through it, you're basically negotiating the RNG. Whether you like to admit it or not, every time you play the game, you're still at the mercy of the RNG. So, what have you got to lose by making use of the ability to manipulate the RNG in your favour? The game is programmed that way, after all, so it's basically as much a part of the game as anything else.

We need to change our thinking on the RNG. It isn't abuse, it's manipuating events in our favour. It's a perfectly normal, natural part of the game and should be treated as such.

Part of the challenge of the draft is to get by with a less-than-ideal team, which means making up strategies as you go. It's one thing to use the RNG to your advantage, but I have much more respect for the drafter who uses what they've got to get out of a stupid situation.

As for me, the only time I meddle with the RNG is either to make sure I don't die to the Devil Axe (dodging ~28% or something like that) in the early part of the game, or making sure that I win in the arena (but in return, I don't take stupid bets, because screw you base arena for making me miss 94% shots). If it's hit rates, it means that something went wrong somewhere, or my earlygame team really sucks.

[Espinosa]

My take on the RNG is that while it affects you, you're not supposed to manipulate it. The playing changes drastically if we assume you can know exactly what is going to happen and can get nearly any unlikely event to occur.

[Othin]

Resetting is for the weak.

[Baldrick]

Changing the RNG in your favour is abuse, because you're not even meant to know about it (as far as I know, how it works is never explained in-game), let alone be able to manipulate it. There's a difference between being at the mercy of a phenomenon, and having godlike control over it. Anyway, if you remove unfavourable events, you're basically left with an "I Win" button.

As for drafts, my opinion is level-abusing is never OK, and crit-abuse is tolerable if you can get it over 50% (or 30% if you double). But it's nearly impossible to call out any but the most egregious cases, since the line between genuine luck and "luck" is so very fine.

[Toothache]

See, this is where I disagree. The Pandora's Box has been opened on the knowledge about the RNG. Understanding how the game works doesn't necessarily make things less trivial, or sometimes even less difficult. In many ways, it opens up new possibilities and new strategies. Even in a TAS, there's certain things that are just impossible - or so improbable that it would take far too long to achieve - and there are still limits on what is capable. There's no 'godlike control' as you put it. But you can nudge things in your favour.

[eclipse]

Yes, we know the power is there. Stuff like displaying the RNG in GBA games is prohibited for a reason.

[Espinosa]

See, this is where I disagree. The Pandora's Box has been opened on the knowledge about the RNG. Understanding how the game works doesn't necessarily make things less trivial, or sometimes even less difficult. In many ways, it opens up new possibilities and new strategies. Even in a TAS, there's certain things that are just impossible - or so improbable that it would take far too long to achieve - and there are still limits on what is capable. There's no 'godlike control' as you put it. But you can nudge things in your favour.

If full control over the RNG is assumed, then any run that tries to achieve something essentially has to be a TAS, or it's invalid. Essentially, that makes every run played on cartridge obsolete too.

[Toothache]

Yes, we know the power is there. Stuff like displaying the RNG in GBA games is prohibited for a reason.

True, but that doesn't stop you from experimenting with the cursor movement. In my draft videos I've only did that when it was absolutely necessary, although I did change the order of attacking to allow for certain hits and misses to occur. That's a lot more acceptable than wiggling the cursor to manipulate the RNG.

The point is, all this is part of the game.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Toothache

[eclipse]

Noting that your 79% misses while your enemy's 53% hits every single time as the first move of the game, and preventing that is about where I draw the line. I'll dump a RN so that I'm not stuck in a situation that I can't get out of. . .but if there is another way, then I'll try for it.

[Toothache]

Noting that your 79% misses while your enemy's 53% hits every single time as the first move of the game, and preventing that is about where I draw the line. I'll dump a RN so that I'm not stuck in a situation that I can't get out of. . .but if there is another way, then I'll try for it.

In doing this, you're already manipulating the RNG. Even though it's a minor change, it's still changing your actions to work with the RNs that are upcoming (and they are always fixed in the GBA games, so you know exactly what can be coming and plan ahead). If this is acceptable to you, why not something else?

[PKL]

There are people that take no resetting too far...like 13th :/. He doesnt reset if an FE8 draft character dies, its crazy. Also, didnt Intelligent systems themselves say in an RD interview that resetting is a part of the game? I reset when i mess up all the time and come up with new plans/strategies (a recent example would be FE12 chapter 23 in a recent draft, i didnt get silence and had to reset a lot of times, mixing up my approach and positioning to see what would be the safest way to do the chapter. I ended up finding a perfectly reliable 2 turn strat without rigging the RNG at all. And, turns out, if i had taken 3 turns or more, it wouldve been more unreliable :s), if resetting for this is frowned upon then Ive been doing it wrong all this time :/.