Training Filler - Game Over

[Makaze]

Anyway still a bit wary about makaze. Even if he may not be as experienced with forum mafia I still feel as if it was weird play and should be noted. Especially when he says I don't want to be on a "wagon" but then votes ZM anyway which is essentially hopping off one and on to another basically.

General Ciraxis your thoughts on the game so far, do you still think ZM is leaning scum?

I don't really have any defense other than that my behavior does not make sense if I truly want to lie low and don't care who I kill.

I'm also wondering why you haven't voted for me despite your suspicion. Is there a reason not to? Vote your suspicion.

[Green Poet]

After reading the first two pages:

@Makaze, Blyvern. Please don't edit your posts.

I think this Ciraxis wagon is poor. The cases on him stem from him calling Terrador scummy for what the former interprets as an attempt to trick newb!PRs into claiming, which is something that's not impossible. Sure, Terrador may know for certain that he himself is town and retaliate thusly, but the subsequent sheeping by Junko, FFM and Blyvern is founded on the assumption that Terrador is in the right, and that's an assumption they shouldn't be making this early on.

I anticipate some shady shenanigans.

Elaborate?

Cut by Terrador.

You just seemed super sharp and good at what you do.

Flattery will get you everywhere, friend.

And it appears I've been swordsaged by YoungXenahort. Jumping on a wagon with a dangerously large early amount of pressure on it? Even though I agree with that wagon [at least with the very minimal information we have], this is shady.

##Unvote

##Vote: YoungXenahort

Why drop a vote on Ciraxis with literally no stated reasoning? We're a bit past that, and frankly, jumping on an already-large wagon without contributing to it isn't exactly townie behavior.

Don't you suspect Ciraxis as well, though? I think Xenahort's strikeout bit is him making to articulate that he agrees with the sentiments against Ciraxis thus far.

[Person123]

Anyway still a bit wary about makaze. Even if he may not be as experienced with forum mafia I still feel as if it was weird play and should be noted. Especially when he says I don't want to be on a "wagon" but then votes ZM anyway which is essentially hopping off one and on to another basically.

General Ciraxis your thoughts on the game so far, do you still think ZM is leaning scum?

ZM has only posted twice, so it's hard to say honestly.

As for how the game is progressing, I'm happy we're escaping RVS early, even at the cost of my welfare.

[blyegg]

After reading the first two pages:

@Makaze, Blyvern. Please don't edit your posts.

Yeah, it was a mistake and i forgot .-.

Luckily Maka made a script so its not an issue anymore

[Terrador]

After reading the first two pages:

@Makaze, Blyvern. Please don't edit your posts.

I think this Ciraxis wagon is poor. The cases on him stem from him calling Terrador scummy for what the former interprets as an attempt to trick newb!PRs into claiming, which is something that's not impossible. Sure, Terrador may know for certain that he himself is town and retaliate thusly, but the subsequent sheeping by Junko, FFM and Blyvern is founded on the assumption that Terrador is in the right, and that's an assumption they shouldn't be making this early on.

Elaborate?

Cut by Terrador.

Flattery will get you everywhere, friend.

Don't you suspect Ciraxis as well, though? I think Xenahort's strikeout bit is him making to articulate that he agrees with the sentiments against Ciraxis thus far.

I think Ciraxis has behaved somewhat suspiciously, but at the same time, there's very little evidence; sheeping onto a case without adding anything to it this early seems entirely unproductive. Ciraxis made a backwards case that accomplished nothing and created a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario, which is pretty damn un-townie, but that doesn't make jumping on an existing wagon without contributing anything to it (or at VERY least putting effort into citing what arguments you find most compelling) suddenly not scummy.

And as far as my vote goes--it's early Day 1. I'm not necessarily voting my top scumread; I'm voting the person I want to investigate/talk to most at this time. Once we get closer to lynch, it'll move around a lot less.

[Junk]

xeno kind of just shot up the list now mak. Will keep and eye on you though. and since i forgot to place my vote

##unvote

## vote xenoheart

with this many people on the wagon starting to have doubts if General may be scum. Feels like way to many people just jumped on the wagon for my taste sheeping terras case. This vote by xeno especially gives me bad vibes because it looks like he just skimmed the thread and voted GC for no reason. An explanation is def needed here.

Also GP when did I ever sheep terra's case?

[Terrador]

xeno kind of just shot up the list now mak. Will keep and eye on you though. and since i forgot to place my vote

##unvote

## vote xenoheart

with this many people on the wagon starting to have doubts if General may be scum. Feels like way to many people just jumped on the wagon for my taste sheeping terras case. This vote by xeno especially gives me bad vibes because it looks like he just skimmed the thread and voted GC for no reason. An explanation is def needed here.

Also GP when did I ever sheep terra's case?

>having doubts

Or, rather, being reasonably unsure of their own feelings at this super-early stage!

Swordsaged in asking this. I pored over the thread a couple of times, and haven't seen Junko jump on the case at all. He asked Ciraxis what he thinks of the game so far, and Xeno why he jumped on the wagon, then this post.

[Terrador]

Also, Green Poet: so far as the other folks on the General Ciraxis case goes...

FFM's post seems minimal, but well-founded. Plus, he was the first to "jump on the wagon". I can't see this bit as anti-town at all.

Blyvern... more minimal, and later, so it looks a bit worse. Still, at least there's a reason for it. I get a null-tell from that post.

Also, this wagon wasn't half as dangerous as I thought. Four people isn't many; I need to actually count votes when I evaluate how large wagons are!

[Makaze]

Out of curiosity, what is swordsaging?

[Green Poet]

xeno kind of just shot up the list now mak. Will keep and eye on you though. and since i forgot to place my vote

##unvote

## vote xenoheart

with this many people on the wagon starting to have doubts if General may be scum. Feels like way to many people just jumped on the wagon for my taste sheeping terras case. This vote by xeno especially gives me bad vibes because it looks like he just skimmed the thread and voted GC for no reason. An explanation is def needed here.

Also GP when did I ever sheep terra's case?

My bad - I skimmed and saw your vote on page 1, believing it to have come after Terrador's.

In any case, I guess Xehanort is our new object of contention? It looks like this is the only post he's made, so I'd rather like to see more from him first.

Jumping between game threads atm. I don't see anything that immediately merits a vote right now (surprise, surprise) so it'll have to wait until I form impressions on everyone.

Out of curiosity, what is swordsaging?

I assume it's Terrador's stylized term for "ninja'd."

[Terrador]

Out of curiosity, what is swordsaging?

A Giant In the Playground term for being pre-empted, e.g. cut, ninja'd, etc.

For what it's worth, I probably won't contribute anything else to the game tonight. I'm a bit tired, and will be heading to bed soon-ish. Night, all!

[Green Poet]

To wit, Terrador's explanation of what swordsaging is was just "swordsaged" itself.

Oh, I'm terrible.

[Terrador]

To wit, Terrador's explanation of what swordsaging is was just "swordsaged" itself.

Oh, I'm terrible.

I saw it, I just put my own explanation on it!

[Green Poet]

Dudeaga should exist more, and should revote me in bold if he still wishes to do so.

I'd like if ZM posted more as well.

TBH I only jumped on the bandwagon since not really much is going on and the mood seemed kind of playful

That's RVS, which is what we aim to remove ourselves from.

I've also seen nothing of Vashiane. Talk to me, people, please.

[Terrador]

No activity overnight? I'm disappointed.

Sheeping GP's desire for inactive players to get in here. Active Towns win games; inactive Towns lose them.

Polydeuces! You haven't posted since RVS, and I want to hear from you. What behaviors do you consider scummy? What behaviors do other people think are scummy that you think are generally mistakes, bad play, dumb town, or in some other way not really a scum tell?

[MRDRHAWK]

Okay, woah. I pretty much passed out last night while we were in RVS, so gimme a bit of time. I'm already looking at some stuff from the last page and frowning because multiple people jumped of YX for RVSing when he probably just didn't know we weren't in RVS anymore, but I'll expand on stuff later as well as answer Terralec's questions.

[MRDRHAWK]

Alright, so, general stuff:

-First off, can we get a prod for Vashi? I don't even think she's made an RVS post, much less an actual one.

-Second, I'm proud that we're already getting into actual content not even a page in on a training game. You guys make me proud <3

-Third, the semi-wagon on YX is dumb and should not be happening. He probably just didn't know we were out of RVS already, and two of the more experienced people in the game (who I expect better of) jumped on it. Seriously, calm down. Focus on actual cases.

ZeeEmm seems quick to add a third vote onto Dudeaga, even though no real information has been produced yet. Didn't produce any valid reason to add on to Dudeaga's wagon.

Unvote## Pascal

Vote## ZeeEmm

This vote is actually super bad for when it was. Like, we weren't even out of RVS at that stage and you're poking at someone already for something that's not even bad? Feels like you're grasping for something here.

Given no other reason, I felt like voting ZeeEmm but they were already voted for. I didn't want to wagon, so I voted for someone else I didn't have a reason for.

Then they bandwagon'd on my vote.

I guess it doesn't really matter in the long run.

RVS is typically kinda dumb. You don't need to worry too much about tiny 2-3 vote wagons at that stage, since the votes will all go flying off them later anyways. I've got more of an opinion on you down below

That's precisely why we need to scumhunt our hardest. RVS exists due to low amounts of information, and the best way to produce information is by asking questions.

...which I was literally just doing.

##Unvote

##Vote: General Ciraxis

This comes off as both OMGUS by Terralec and more bad play by Ciraxis. To be honest, both are bugging me for varying reasons. Ciraxis first: why are you still picking at that point-that's-not-a-point? Your post was also a bad defense to the pushes on you, because you're not really doing any good scumhunting, even now.

Plus, you backed off on Terra the moment you saw his question, and then vanished. That is outright scum play. Trust me, I've done it as scum before, at least the latter part.

Ah, I see...

Would you would not want to give away your true role at all? Whether you are on the town side of the mafia side, claiming anything other than Vanilla Town can get you killed.

I'm sure there are more complex situations, but as a Doctor, Cop, or Mafia, I would have no incentive to state anything other than Vanilla Town.

Did I guess right?

This entire response to Terralec's question makes me feel good about Makaze. He knows what he's doing, and at the same time is playing cautiously and trying not to leave any content that would get him potentially baited later on. Overall solid first game from Makaze, and I hope he sticks around past this game.

You should only claim if it's a role that could attract a lynch if discovered by someone else (like say, a role that prevents others from seeing what you do at night i.e Ascetic) or if you need to prove you're too important to lynch (like a role that lets you see the role of someone else at night, i.e Rolecop).

>Role that's "too important to lynch"

>Uses rolecop as an example

Rolecop's actually very often a scum role, especially on SF. Keep that in mind if a massclaim does in fact occur. Nonetheless, you're actually making a good effort to answer questions and ask them yourself, and your case on Ciraxis is good (to top it off, I agree with it wholesale). Same for Junko, only a little less so because he jumped on YX much as Alec did.

Polydeuces! You haven't posted since RVS, and I want to hear from you. What behaviors do you consider scummy? What behaviors do other people think are scummy that you think are generally mistakes, bad play, dumb town, or in some other way not really a scum tell?

First off, are you trying to generate meta here for future use in this game? This is kinda bad imhotep, especially to players such as me who actually have meaningful experience under their belt and thus already have meta - your mentor (SB) in particular should know how I play as both alignments, so I'm shocked he's letting you get away with asking me this.

Secondly, to actually answer that question... just go back and read some of my old games, particularly Healer and ITTD if you want a really good answer. Generally, I find nitpicking outside of ED1 to be bad, as well as excessive tunnelling (if there's actual info on that, you can do it subtly). Inactivity and lurking can be scummy, but I don't see it that way (partly because then I'd have to scumread myself in every game, and I almost never roll scum).

Thirdly, I'm surprised you're asking me this, since I'm probably the most experienced in SF mafia playing in this game after... maybe you, and am really only playing to get myself a bit more confidence in my play (since I feel like since ITTD - and even before then - I've been really bad at mafia). Could just be you getting me something to actually directly comment on, but w/e. I'm not seeing any scum intent in this alone.

As for some actual reads, all I've really got so far is:

Town: Me

Really Leaning Town: Makaze, Frosty (Pascal)

Kinda Leaning Town: GP, Junko (DNEPG)

Null: Terralec (making decent cases, but he feels like he's metafishing plus his content outside of that is kinda... ehhh? he was leading the Ciraxis charge though so I'm okay with him for now), Blyvern (didn't like the minimalistic sheep he pulled earlier, but little else to go on otherwise)

Hard Leaning Scum: Ciraxis

Need To Exist: Everyone Else

##Unvote

##Vote: General Ciraxis

Seriously though, about a third of the game needs to exist more. YX, Vashi, ZM and Dudeaga all have practically nothing (in Vashi's case, literally nothing), so idk how to read them.

[WhiskeySickFive]

Sorry about the delay. I didn't check the thread, because I thought it was just gonna be a RL for lulz today, but apparently serious business went down, so I'm gonna go and state what I see.

Not gonna lie, Ciraxis definitely felt sheepy because of the vote n' unvote, but I don't think that's really a hard scumtell. The way things are going now, however, I think he's probably be lynched because his reaction is leaning maf- but then again, I don't play Forum mafia, so that doesn't mean all that much.

To be completely frank, if I HAD to vote now (based on my Epicmafia experience), I'd probably go hard on people that (imo) are reading too deeply into things, and using that as an excuse for bandwagoning and lynching d1. But I haven't played d1 start in EM about a year or so. In the end, Ciraxis does lean scummy.

I have hunches of my own, but no /real/ concrete evidence, so I'll just wait on that.

So:

##Unvote

##Vote: General Ciraxis

[ZemZem]

Now that I read back, I'm gonna start off by doing this:

##Unvote

I see that Ciraxis has the majority of the vote, but I don't think I'll vote for anyone until I see something that warrants suspicion. *feels out of place*

Aside from myself (really busy, sorry, computer programming and school), I hope to see others like Vash post here more.

[Green Poet]

-Third, the semi-wagon on YX is dumb and should not be happening. He probably just didn't know we were out of RVS already

Agreed. Xehanort has hardly posted, and shouldn't be voted for a lack of explanation behind his vote when there are others that haven't at all.

This entire response to Terralec's question makes me feel good about Makaze. He knows what he's doing, and at the same time is playing cautiously and trying not to leave any content that would get him potentially baited later on. Overall solid first game from Makaze, and I hope he sticks around past this game.

By "feeling good about Makaze," do you mean that you simply think he's playing well, or playing townie?

Being cautious is fine by itself, but if you're noticing that a newbie "knows what he's doing" and is playing in order to avoid being "potentially baited later on," it seems like more reason for concern than congratulation to me, as far as the actual game goes. It may not indicate anything about his alignment, but perhaps he's being coached to avoid being committal in answering Terrador?

Most importantly, I do not agree with this Ciraxis wagon. This post in particular makes me feel better about him; he's clearly explaining his thought process and admitting that his reads this early on may not be the best.

Not gonna lie, Ciraxis definitely felt sheepy because of the vote n' unvote, but I don't think that's really a hard scumtell.

Is it sheeping for Ciraxis to vote someone who had one RVS vote on them? Junko's vote on ZM had no reasoning behind it; Ciraxis' new vote did, so I don't see what the issue is.

Essentially, Ciraxis unvoted from an RVS vote to something he thought was actually worth pursuing. I don't consider this bad.

[WhiskeySickFive]

It's a feeling from the way I read his post.

[Person123]

Sorry about the delay. I didn't check the thread, because I thought it was just gonna be a RL for lulz today, but apparently serious business went down, so I'm gonna go and state what I see.

Not gonna lie, Ciraxis definitely felt sheepy because of the vote n' unvote, but I don't think that's really a hard scumtell. The way things are going now, however, I think he's probably be lynched because his reaction is leaning maf- but then again, I don't play Forum mafia, so that doesn't mean all that much.

To be completely frank, if I HAD to vote now (based on my Epicmafia experience), I'd probably go hard on people that (imo) are reading too deeply into things, and using that as an excuse for bandwagoning and lynching d1. But I haven't played d1 start in EM about a year or so. In the end, Ciraxis does lean scummy.

I have hunches of my own, but no /real/ concrete evidence, so I'll just wait on that.

This post can be summed up as an excuse for not posting, followed by a vote you admitted outright "doesn't mean all that much." To me it looks like you're just posting this in order to appear as if you're contributing, while not actually contributing anything useful.

It's a feeling from the way I read his post.

A "feeling" sure isn't convincing justification of a vote.

[Vashiane]

SF is ridiculous - it finally loaded for me.

But hi, ridiculously late Vashiane finally here and caught up.

[Junk]

SF is ridiculous - it finally loaded for me.

But hi, ridiculously late Vashiane finally here and caught up.

hello thoughts on game?

[Terrador]

MAN, this has been a shitty day. I gotta get back out to the yard, but I'm taking a break to drop this post off!

@Polydeuces: My play in prior games has been kind of shit! If this doesn't seem wholly consistent with my usual meta, it's because I have to change to improve. I've played all of three Day phases in the past few months, mate, all in very strange circumstances. I'm trying to see how players think so I have some more data to compare with when making reads, and I was poking you in particular because you were inactive and hadn't been called out to post yet. That's all.

And so far as the YX thing goes: let me direct you to this post, where I note that I'm not voting my first lynch target at this early stage, but the person whom I have pointed questions for.

I'm not entirely agreeing with some of the conclusions you draw in the post, particularly your assumption that I know you and would tread lightly around you for... what reason? Still, I fail to see scum intent in a post so chock-full of content.

@Dudeaga: "I have hunches of my own, but no /real/ concrete evidence, so I'll just wait on that."

That is literally the only thing you have to contribute--your hunches and impressions. Nothing is concrete right now; everything is just subjective reads on behaviors that seem scummy. Please tell us about your hunches--even if they're unsubstantiated, that's far better than nothing.

The whole post is a load of waffle. I'm not comfortable with it.

@Vashiane: I asked you a question here, which you can answer if you want, but seeing as we're out of RVS and there's actual game content to discuss: who are the three scummiest-looking players to you right now, and why?