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FRLG tier list


MacLovin
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Misty. Charmander, unlike the other two, cannot cover her. Also, Bridge Squirtle.

I think you're missing the point. Charmander and Pikachu vs Brock. Are you suggesting I catch 3 mons because I picked Charmander? Cause that's an argument I don't care to have because it's dumb and irrelevant.

If you say Mankey and Bellsprout are better foils for Charmander, then you're just proving that Pikachu is even more redundant.

You're the one arguing he is a good partner for Charmander, I'm simply just tryng not to have a dumb conversation. Besides, what good is it being partnered with a crappy starter you don't synergize well with?

By the time you've trained Pikachu to the level it needs to be, you could have swept Misty's gym with Bite several times over.

Well if I'm sweeping with Wartortle or Pikachu, what difference does it make other than I'm covering more things and reducing the number of things I can't effectively deal with? But hey, if we're going the "irrelevant, Squirtle solos the game" then fuck it, I'm not going to have that discussion with you.

Also, no mention of Bulbasaur?

Did you miss my point about Geodude coming at a higher level, and being able to deal with birds just as well, and Charmander and Surge also?

Geodude is slow, inaccurate, dumb and awful. As for Surge, there is a far superior Diglett to the right of the very town he lives in. He's higher level, but it doesn't mean jack.

It boggles my mind that you think Squirtle needs Pikachu for backup against Misty, but Charmander doesn't.

Charmander definitely needs help against Misty, but when he also has a problem with Brock, it just seems silly you'd catch Pikachu. But hey, if you're trying to prove a point that Pikachu is bad against Brock, I don't think anyone here is going to argue that. Misty is not the problem here, it's Charmander.

What about everything that isn't weak to electric?

Grass and Water (oh look, my two most likely starters) cover them. Synergy!

Speaking of which, the other is grass. Since you seem to think Charmander and Pikachu are best of friends...

It's typing means it competes with Zapdos lategame.

Well Zapdos doesn't exist until then, so fuck him. Who does Pikachu compete with until then? No one until Voltorb and Magnemite. Magnemite is slow, Voltorb sucks.

So? There isn't a single mon in this game that can't be made redundant. Zapdos isn't truly redundant in this case, because the time needed to catch it is less than the time needed to raise Pikachu and your flying type to a comparable level.

We could also just skip going to the Power Plant at all because all the things he covers we could have already covered.

In Zapdos' case, it only needs to use Electric attacks four times; against Gary twice, against Lorelei, and against Lance. Gary and Lance have two Pokemon weak to Thunder, so you have a 49% chance of hitting every time. Lorelei has four, so you have a 24% chance of hitting every time. Inconvenient? Yes. Unusable? No.

Gyarados (Gary AND Lance have one, even better with Gary is that if I picked Bulbasaur or Squirtle, Gary has Gyarados. Even betterer is that if I pick Squirtle, Gary has no Exeggutor so it sucks to be Zapdos) gets his face exploded by any electric move in general which Raichu can supply. Aerodactyl if I remember correctly doesn't have good durability so I doubt a full blown Thunder is necessary. Cloyster has terrible special bulk. Then there's the issue against Lorelei if Thunder misses. If Zapdos misses, he's eating a face full of ice, of which he's weak to. There is also the fact that just because you threw a number up doesn't mean the dice is on your side. What if I miss multiple times? It's entirely possible, and is a possibility I can easily avoid.

So not only is Thunder's real number of uses miniscule, it's also unreliable, especially on Zapdos who's weak to a good portion of the things he wants to hit with Thunder.

So you're right, it's not unusable. It's just not that useful.

There isn't any ideal Pokemon. There is only more efficient and less efficient.

There is ideal for the moment, to which Zapdos never really is due to how late he arrives.

That's exactly my point. The exp will cost time to get. Time is what we're using as a measure of efficiency, right?

Ignoring the fact that the Power Plant is entire optional and is thus a waste of time in itself, there is also the factor of ease of use. After all, let's take the example of Bulbasaur. He can't deal with flying types well. Pikachu makes up time by making these fights go faster. If we used Geodude, there is the factor that not only can he miss, but he can waste more time still by the fact he's being slow and thus the enemy keeps going first (which can include getting Supersonic'd/Confuse Ray'd/Hypnotized, compounding the problem worse). Thus my comment on Geodude being dumb and awful.

There is also the factor that this isn't a speed run tier, which point having a tier in general is dumb. A good rule of thumb I at least tend to go by is how cleanly you can get through the game. Speed is nice, but only in the sort of sense of how I mow through enemies rather than by a timer, if that helps clariy any misunderstandings.

Finally, note that as stated, rarity is not factored in this tier list.

Just existing for longer is not inherently a good thing.

It is if you're good, which Pikachu is.

Squirtle can beat it with less time wasted. The extra time taken by using Bite instead of Thundershock is less than the time it takes to train Pikachu. It makes Pikachu redundant

Squirtle technically makes everything redundant, including Zapdos. What's your point?

The first paragraph I was saying that I was not talking to you, I was talking to Sharpy. You should ignore him because it doesn't concern you, he should take it seriously.

The second paragraph? I didn't proofread, I should have said "theoretical" in there. I didn't mean to insinuate that I am definitely right (I did say "I believe" so you really should have known I'm not completely certain.)

The only speedruns I can find faster than my time are either Squirtle solos, or a Squirtle/Zapdos duet. In fact, I shouldn't have said possibly, Squirtle would definitely improve on my time. So, I am willing to think I'm wrong, because I know I'm wrong.

However, I believe that Squirtle is the only mon that improves the efficiency of my team. You're welcome to do your own playthrough using whoever you like and prove me wrong.

The fact you even believe something as ultimate as that still shows an incredible amount of ego. Also, I have recently sold the game, since gen 1 never manages to keep my interest for long. I love tier list talks though, so I'mma be here anyways. I can definitely say though that Pikachu was by no means making me miserable in any sort, like you seem to think he does. I mean hey, maybe it's because you tried to fight Brock with him and Charmander. Not that bright, dude.

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Every trainer between Koga, Sabrina and Blaine can be covered by Zapdos so I don't see your point?

so raichu is more than good enough for the vast majority of enemy trainers?

I guess you mean every trainer in between Surge and Erika etc but most of them are not necessary for game completion so counting them seems a bit pointless.

>80% of trainers in the game are not necessary for game completion; why do we need zapdos for those trainers again?

please realize that there is a rampant double standard going on with having to use x number of pokemon on the team and not fighting enough battles to sustain a team of that size

Still, to say it comes at the tail end of the game is exaggerating. Moltres comes at the tail end of the game. Zapdos doesn't really.

once you've beat koga, the entire map is open. the only substantial dungeons left are silph co. (which you can do before koga) and victory road. that's the tail end of the game.

4. I said Zapdos would literally laugh at Raichu's stats. This does not mean Zapdos will actually laugh, this means that, in effect, Zapdos finds Raichu's stats funny.

read further

Usage note

Since the early 20th century, literally has been widely used as an intensifier meaning “in effect, virtually,” a sense that contradicts the earlier meaning “actually, without exaggeration”: The senator was literally buried alive in the Iowa primaries. The parties were literally trading horses in an effort to reach a compromise. The use is often criticized; nevertheless, it appears in all but the most carefully edited writing.

in summary, it makes you look stupid

by the way if you look up the word "literal," it does not indicate anything about being "in effect;" rather, all of its definitions strictly state that there is no connotation of any sort of exaggeration in the word.

Zapdos doesn't have nearly as many shortcomings as Raichu though.

and raichu... doesn't have that many shortcomings!

Edited by dondon151
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There is also the factor that this isn't a speed run tier, which point having a tier in general is dumb. A good rule of thumb I at least tend to go by is how cleanly you can get through the game. Speed is nice, but only in the sort of sense of how I mow through enemies rather than by a timer, if that helps clariy any misunderstandings.

I think this whole argument is caused by a disagreement on what efficiency means.

Since in FE tier lists, efficiency means LTC, but not absolute LTC (e.g. Jill is in the Top Tier for FE9 because she's good for LTC, but isn't recruited in absolute LTC because she costs a turn), I assumed this tier list was going for quickest in-game time, but not the absolute quickest.

By your standard of efficiency, I'd agree that Pikachu is really good since you can grind as much as you like. What's your opinion using my standard?

Regarding the "perfect team", maybe I do have a big ego. But I can make a reasonable assumption that I know what I'm talking about, so it's justified ego. My opinion on Pikachu is the same as many LTC players' opinions on Est archetypes; if you want to use it, more power to you, but don't try to argue it's better than Zapdos for efficiency.

Edited by Minor Baldo
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I dunno, man. He looks like kind of a jerk.

Maybe it would depend on the nature?

Also, in the situation, bringing the time it takes to find Pikachu is pretty relevant.

I don't know what kind of levels are assumed for fighting Zapdos, either. If you have a low level team, it could easily end up taking a long time due to Zapdos' high base stats (although thankfully Zapdos only carries one damaging move).

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I don't know what kind of levels are assumed for fighting Zapdos, either. If you have a low level team, it could easily end up taking a long time due to Zapdos' high base stats (although thankfully Zapdos only carries one damaging move).

I think the standard procedure would be to use the Master Ball on it. There's nothing better to use it on before beating the E4.

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I think the standard procedure would be to use the Master Ball on it. There's nothing better to use it on before beating the E4.

even more damaging this is to kirsche's argument, since you have to finish silph co. before catching zapdos

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I don't know what kind of levels are assumed for fighting Zapdos, either. If you have a low level team, it could easily end up taking a long time due to Zapdos' high base stats (although thankfully Zapdos only carries one damaging move).

It's pretty easy to resist Drill peck. If I remember correctly, I've always went for him at just under level 40, but I don't know when it's first pheasable.

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I think the standard procedure would be to use the Master Ball on it. There's nothing better to use it on before beating the E4.

There's also Articuno, to cite one example. Regardless of how you go about it, Zapdos needs one highly unique item to be caught and is dreadfully difficult to capture without it. Pikachu with his 5% encounter rate is tame in comparison, though your team may have trouble surviving consecutive Thundershocks as you try to catch it.

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even more damaging this is to kirsche's argument, since you have to finish silph co. before catching zapdos

Yeah, although I do assume master ball usage on Zapdos because screw trying to catch it otherwise.

Sabrina-E4 is probably about a third of the game if you include the islands. Maybe just a quarter I haven't been counting. I just don't think Pikachu does a whole lot of useful stuff with his poor stats and his poor type coverage in the two thirds of the game before Zapdos. He just becomes any old pokemon in the party without any of the usefulness the nidos and Jynx/Mime. Ok he does stuff, but how much of that is important stuff? Most of the trainers we'll be battling will just be for the purpose of levelling him up anyway, so why does that count as plus points? Zapdos makes light work of most important enemies after it appears, forgetting the fact that normal scrubs are just there as a means to relax while you fry some bird keeper ass.

Also, aside from Articuno, Zapdos is the best masterball candidate anyway. Better to use it than just leave it lying in your bag.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Fearow is faster and doesn't need Sword Dance to kill stuff, but Farfetch'd crits a lot with his special item (50/50 chance when using Slash, but that comes late), can set up and is guaranteed the best nature (Adamant) and high-end IVs due to being an in-game trade in FR/LG (this is the first game where the tradees have good IVs). I'd say Fearow is easily the better of the two, but Farfetch'd is comparable to Pidgey.

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