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Black/White In-Game Tier List


Smiley Jim
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Zebstrika is sorta mediocre. As Blitzle, its durability is very lacking and its not strong enough to make up for it. Evolving helps, but by then Flame Charge is getting really weak and that's his only coverage move (besides normal attacks).

Whereas Joltik joins right before the flying gym, and then he evolves and takes off. CE Thunder + Signal Beam is a very powerful combination backed up by Galvantula's good stats.

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Any reason why Joltik and Blitzle are a tier apart? They're both electric pokemon, Blitzle would've probably been evolved by the time you have Joltik, both do well against Skyla(and Zebstrika is more durable to boot) and it also has flame charge against Brycen and Burgh. Not to mention it does pretty good against Elesa's Emolga. Zebstrika also has a small defensive advantage over Galvantula.

Now granted Galvantula has a slightly better variety and such, I don't think Signal beam/Poison Jab should be what makes these two a tier apart.

Orange Crush might have explained this already, but I see a few cons with Blitzle. First off, its durability is complete ass. Because, let's face it, 45HP/32Def/32SpD isn't going to hold out against a whole lot(Joltik has only marginally better durability, but Galvantula loses durability to Zebstrika), and Blitzle is not an offensive god like Archen(who, believe it or not, has better durability than Blitzle). Yeah, early Flame Charge helps, but that's literally ALL it has for coverage(other than lolNormal), whereas Joltik, while joining later, has STAB Signal Beam at Lv34(2 levels before he evolves; which is a LOT more potent than Flame Charge at that point in the game)to work with, as well as Compoundeyes Thunder through TM25(which is gotten soon after Skyla), which is pretty hax, while Zebstrika has to rely on either Spark or Wild Charge for his STAB, the former of which is a tad weak as a main STAB and the latter causing recoil, which in turn uses up healing items, and doesn't learn naturally until lv47.

Now I'm not saying that Joltik is without his cons(joins somewhat late, has rather pathetic offense before evo), but I found that Galvantula's late game contributions are a bit more profound that Blitzle's early game performance(he trolls Elesa's Emolgas, and can do some damage against Burgh with Flame Charge, but after Skyla, his days are basically numbered)

Let me see what the community thinks on Blitzle, and I may consider upping his tier placement or lowering Joltik's.

Edited by Mercenary James
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I don't think Joltik has anything to offer that could possibly put it a tier over Blitzle. Blitzle joins early with great speed and good offense with enough coverage to stay relevant. I definitely don't see Joltik a tier over Blitzle. They should like switch places on the tier list.

Is it just me or does this list look like it takes a lot of meta-game stuff into account over in-game stuff? Sawk being high makes sense for in-game but stuff like the Archeops hype and the massive Ferrothorn hype make it look like too much meta-game stuff is being taken into account. Maybe I'm wrong though.

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Why exactly is Tepig a tier above Oshawott? I'm not really seeing what Tepig has to offer that'd warrant a tier gap.

It evolves into its 2nd tier fire/fighting form right before the normal-type gym, and also has access to Work Up and Flame Charge at that time, allowing it to set up on anything without the need for X items / while dishing out damage. Being dual fighting also gives it the strong STAB that is very helpful against many gyms and elites. Samurott only gets Swords Dance postgame.

Edited by Espinosa
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I don't think Joltik has anything to offer that could possibly put it a tier over Blitzle. Blitzle joins early with great speed and good offense with enough coverage to stay relevant. I definitely don't see Joltik a tier over Blitzle. They should like switch places on the tier list.

Is it just me or does this list look like it takes a lot of meta-game stuff into account over in-game stuff? Sawk being high makes sense for in-game but stuff like the Archeops hype and the massive Ferrothorn hype make it look like too much meta-game stuff is being taken into account. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Archeops is actually terrible in the metagame because of entry hazards and priority. That stuff doesn't exist here... so it's easy to see why he'd be high ranked with his insane offensive stats.

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It evolves into its 2nd tier fire/fighting form right before the normal-type gym, and also has access to Work Up and Flame Charge at that time, allowing it to set up on anything without the need for X items / while dishing out damage. Being dual fighting also gives it the strong STAB that is very helpful against many gyms and elites. Samurott only gets Swords Dance postgame.

Maybe, but IMO its poor offensive movepool holds it back; at least Oshawott gets Razor Shell (which is pretty powerful for an early attack, and STAB boosted to boot) at level 17, right when it evolves. Tepig is SOL in that regard.

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Flame Charge might be a bit weaker, but it comes off a higher attack stat (93/123 vs. 75/100) and is effective against more types. Moreover, you can make it last almost the entire game if you don't want Flamethrower, and Emboar will always appreciate the Speed boost to get really fast opponents (like Liepards).

As for his offensive movepool, I've said to you that Arm Thrust can destroy Boldores before they attack without Sturdy activating (And of course, you'll counter this with your silly "but what if it hits twice" when it usually takes three hits to kill them. I'll take a 70% of not getting a counter rather than eating one all the time), while the Fighting STAB is godly in this game with most of what Team Plasma uses having a Fighting weakness (literally only Trubbishes and Garbodors don't, they're rare, and typically come after you have Bulldoze).

Other than that? He has access to Defense Curl AND Rollout early on for a good offensive and defensive combo. TM wise, he has access through the main game to :

Return

STAB Brick Break

STAB Fire Blast

STAB Low Sweep

Scald

Bulldoze

Rock Slide

Poison Jab

Grass Knot

Wild Charge

I fail to see how that's a bad offensive movepool with that many typings.

Edited by Dio
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way to miss the point

the difference between liepard and like, i dunno, nidoking (let's pretend that nidoking is in this game) is that the latter has good speed to complement excellent offense

I know Liepard has crap for durability, questionable offense, and the two people you'd want to send it out against can destroy it without trying (Caitlin and Shauntel). It's an example of something that's fast, but still sucks. While Speed is a factor, it is not the all-important deciding one. Ferrothorn has crap for speed, insane durability, questionable offense until it evolves, and an ability that bites Pokemon who touch it in the ass.

I am using Ferrathorn in my current runthrough, and I'm telling you that speed is a harsh mistress to this mon, especially Ferroseed who has shit for offensive stats. Evolving to have Steel/Grass coverage in Gyro Ball and Power Whip isn't THAT good. More than speed works against it. Accuracy is another factor. The fact it's slow so is just another minor thing, since it means it's durability is more finite than mons that can just straight sweep an opponent.

While I would say that Ferrathorn isn't bad, it's not good either. If we're also accounting for Ferroseed, Ferroseed sucks on toast.

EDIT: Why the hell is Dwebble so high?

Currently, it's sitting in C tier, or about the middle. . .which I think works for "isn't bad, but isn't good, either". I think it's awesome and would use it all the time, but I also know that this isn't a tier list of Pokemon I heart (or Spinda would be sitting near the top of it). I didn't think having 75% of the cast listed as better than it was fitting, though.

As for the Blitzle/Joltik thing. . .I've only used the former. Flame Charge isn't that great of a move, unless you can do something about its Attack stat. I think my best use for it was paraflinching Skyla to death. . .since mine didn't have the offense to OHKO Swanna (may have been a bit underleveled, but I don't remember).

EDIT: I remember there were a couple B/W drafts on this board, and I got Swanna in the second one. In the first one, the person who had it complained about its offense; I found that its offense was pretty good. Maybe my expectations are lower? This isn't a call to move Swanna, just an observation. . .oh, wait. . .

Where's Ducklett?

Edited by eclipse
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For somewhat using both of them in my first run, I would say Joltik is a bit better but not much. Both are frail, speedy attackers who pretty much have the same role, but Joltik comes at the right time (before a Flying gym) and his Bug type gives him a bit of a niche, especially for the Elite 4 since Bug beats Grimsley and Caitlyn. I'd also rather take Compoundeyes Thunder over Zebstraika's Spark. It's also funny when you consider you can get a wild Zebstraika before fighting Skyla as well and forget about Blitzle.

Ducklett strikes me as a perfect mid to upper mid tier. He comes at a decent time before a Ground gym with fairly decent starting moves and stats. His evoltuion isn't too late and he even has compatibility with Surf and Fly in case you want to make him an HM slave, or you can make him learn Tailwind/Rain Dance and be more of a support member in your team.

On the current list, I'd probably put him between Joltik and Basculin.

Edited by Dio
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Flame Charge might be a bit weaker, but it comes off a higher attack stat (93/123 vs. 75/100) and is effective against more types. Moreover, you can make it last almost the entire game if you don't want Flamethrower, and Emboar will always appreciate the Speed boost to get really fast opponents (like Liepards).

As for his offensive movepool, I've said to you that Arm Thrust can destroy Boldores before they attack without Sturdy activating (And of course, you'll counter this with your silly "but what if it hits twice" when it usually takes three hits to kill them. I'll take a 70% of not getting a counter rather than eating one all the time), while the Fighting STAB is godly in this game with most of what Team Plasma uses having a Fighting weakness (literally only Trubbishes and Garbodors don't, they're rare, and typically come after you have Bulldoze).

Other than that? He has access to Defense Curl AND Rollout early on for a good offensive and defensive combo. TM wise, he has access through the main game to :

Return

STAB Brick Break

STAB Fire Blast

STAB Low Sweep

Scald

Bulldoze

Rock Slide

Poison Jab

Grass Knot

Wild Charge

I fail to see how that's a bad offensive movepool with that many typings.

Silly Dio. Flame Charge isn't exactly something I'd want to be lugging around in lategame when it's weak. Also, most of what Team Plasma uses is nothing to write home about, really, since it's easy to knock those misguided zealots for a loop. And why blow a turn with Defense Curl when I can just gum the opponent immediately?

Also, the big idea is that Tepig being above Archen sounds pretty questionable to me.

What's more, a good deal of those TMs you listed either have low BP (Bulldoze), are situational (Grass Knot), come late (Wild Charge), or are poor attacks in general (Poison Jab, Fire Blast).

Edited by Metal King Slime
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Currently, it's sitting in C tier, or about the middle. . .which I think works for "isn't bad, but isn't good, either". I think it's awesome and would use it all the time, but I also know that this isn't a tier list of Pokemon I heart (or Spinda would be sitting near the top of it). I didn't think having 75% of the cast listed as better than it was fitting, though.

I'm going to address both points you made about Ferrathorn. This one first though, because I love how you ignored that I only said "Not bad but not good" about Ferrathorn if we weren't accounting for Ferroseed. If we do (which we are), then Ferrathorn can fuck right off. Ignoring the fact it has only the heavily situational and 5 PP Gyro Ball to call offense since otherwise it has Metal Claw on a shitty attack stat (Steel notably having bad offensive coverage), when you evolve it and get Power Whip, almost all of his moves have shit for acc. Even then, having Grass to add to your coverage isn't that much a boost, especially since after it evolves, Water and Ground types just stop existing. You don't seem to grasp how bad his offense actually is.

I also would not dream of hyping Iron Barbs as if it would excuse him for it either.

As for the Blitzle/Joltik thing. . .I've only used the former. Flame Charge isn't that great of a move, unless you can do something about its Attack stat. I think my best use for it was paraflinching Skyla to death. . .since mine didn't have the offense to OHKO Swanna (may have been a bit underleveled, but I don't remember).

Flame Charge is a great move to have early though. Blitzle has an actually good Atk stat, and a LOT of grass and bug mons come early (there's even an entire gym that is almost completely rass/bug. Even the gym leader's Leavany gets eaten by it). Since a lot of grass mons come early, and the future has at least some Ice types, it's hard to see why Flame Charge is bad when it is pretty good.

Personally I would say Blitzle is better than Joltik, of which I found very underwhelming. It's special attack isn't that much better than Zebstraika's, and Bug Bite isn't exactly that much better than Flame Charge outside of really lategame STAB (but even then, 60BP isn't exactly a beefy attack. X Scissor isn't that much better). I'd say that Joltik is better like near the end of the game while Zebstraika's better for the rest of it.

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Flame Charge is a great move to have early though. Blitzle has an actually good Atk stat, and a LOT of grass and bug mons come early (there's even an entire gym that is almost completely rass/bug. Even the gym leader's Leavany gets eaten by it). Since a lot of grass mons come early, and the future has at least some Ice types, it's hard to see why Flame Charge is bad when it is pretty good.

Not really, Flame Charge is actually pretty poor later on, Zebstrika lacks the STAB for it and his attack stat is just good not amazing.

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I'm going to address both points you made about Ferrothorn. This one first though, because I love how you ignored that I only said "Not bad but not good" about Ferrothorn if we weren't accounting for Ferroseed. If we do (which we are), then Ferrothorn can fuck right off. Ignoring the fact it has only the heavily situational and 5 PP Gyro Ball to call offense since otherwise it has Metal Claw on a shitty attack stat (Steel notably having bad offensive coverage), when you evolve it and get Power Whip, almost all of his moves have shit for acc. Even then, having Grass to add to your coverage isn't that much a boost, especially since after it evolves, Water and Ground types just stop existing. You don't seem to grasp how bad his offense actually is.

I also would not dream of hyping Iron Barbs as if it would excuse him for it either.

Sorry Clipsey, but I'm going to have to side with Grandjackal on this one. When you hyped up Ferroseed, you forgot one teensy little detail: Ferroseed has god-awful offense before evo, and even after evo, its offense is so-so at best. Its best attack has only 5 PP and only works on enemies that are significantly faster than Ferroseed(which there are plenty of, but that's not the point), and its other form of offense before evo is Metal Claw, which is running off a terrible 50 base attack(and like GJ said, Steel is NOT known for its offensive coverage). And you know what? Grass doesn't have good coverage either, and water/ground/rock types are pretty scarce by the time you actually get Ferroseed.

Taking both GJ's counter argument and your own into account, I'm dropping Ferroseed to near the top of D rank, and changing the validated response to quashed.

Have a nice day.

P.S: Joltik is also going down due to a lot of arguments. He's not likely to leave B tier, but the evidence is pretty strong. He'll go at the top of C for now.

Edited by Mercenary James
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Ferroseed is NOT that painful to get up. Sheesh. If you want painful, try keeping Patrat useful. I think Ferroseed is in the wrong tier; somewhere in C tier is just fine.

Power Whip itself isn't reliant on the opponent being actively weak to it; it'll still do decent damage. It's not sweep material, but if this was a tier list about sweeping, then I can see a couple of C tier Pokemon that can't do that consistently. The reason why I like Iron Barbs is because Ferroseed can take a beating; you won't see me using Rough Skin in Sharpedo's favor, for example. There's one more thing I'd like to test, but that'll have to wait.

Anyone use Basculin?

Edited by eclipse
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Ok, there are some changes, as discussed by me and Marth on chat:

Deerling up to B rank, below Axew.

-Grass STAB isn't that great, but he comes before a Ground gym with innate Take Down, learns Jump Kick soon after capture, and if given Grass Knot, can do some ok damage against Clay's gym. Also, Horn Leech is pretty strong coming off 100 atk and it also heals.

Tynamo down to F rank, below Purrloin.

-Tynamo joins late, is too hard to find, and has shit for stats and movepool until it evolves 12 levels after capture, and needs a thunderstone to reach its full potential. At least Purrloin actually exists, even if he isn't doing shit.

Joltik above Blitzle, but still in C rank.

-Blitzle has an availability advantage, yes, but it severely loses steam after Skyla. And Joltik is out of B tier because he has a few issues himself(his pre-evo offense isn't that good for one), but I feel that his lategame contributions slightly out-edge Blitzle's earlygame contributions.

Solosis and Gothita below Druddigon.

-Solosis and Gothita start off fairly underwhelming(Solosis doesn't get a psychic move until Lv25, and is painfully slow, withe Gothita has poor starts all around until Lv41), and take a while to get good. At least Druddigon has the courtesy to show up usable right off the bat with innate Dragon Claw coming off 120 base atk, and gets Revenge/Dig and Crunch for coverage.

Edited by Mercenary James
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Ferroseed is NOT that painful to get up. Sheesh. If you want painful, try keeping Patrat useful. I think Ferroseed is in the wrong tier; somewhere in C tier is just fine.

Not saying he's hard to level, I'm just saying it's not really worth doing so since his offense ranges from awful to bad accuracy based.

Power Whip itself isn't reliant on the opponent being actively weak to it; it'll still do decent damage. It's not sweep material, but if this was a tier list about sweeping, then I can see a couple of C tier Pokemon that can't do that consistently. The reason why I like Iron Barbs is because Ferroseed can take a beating; you won't see me using Rough Skin in Sharpedo's favor, for example. There's one more thing I'd like to test, but that'll have to wait.

It's also reliant on not whiffing because it has 85 acc. There's a reason I'm not a huge fan of Lillipup being that high, seeing as he's completely reliant on said move for his entire existence. I also again don't care if Iron Barbs is a thing it has, because it's not that helpful.

Would also like to point out that lategame is filled with Fire Blast, Fighting Types, bulky mons and Focus Blast. All things that Ferrothorn hates.

Tynamo down to F rank, below Purrloin.

-Tynamo joins late, is too hard to find, and has shit for stats and movepool until it evolves 12 levels after capture, and needs a thunderstone to reach its full potential. At least Purrloin actually exists, even if he isn't doing shit.p

Not exactly jumping to his defense, but note you catch him before the flying gym, and that you can find a Thunder Stone easily in Chargestone. It's literally along the main path.

Edited by grandjackal
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Not exactly jumping to his defense, but note you catch him before the flying gym, and that you can find a Thunder Stone easily in Chargestone. It's literally along the main path.

Tynamo has piss-poor durability and has to use Chargebeam/Spark which run of its 45SpA/55A respectively. It is very unlikely that it will do ANYTHING against Skyla, really. Especially when it evolves at lvl 39 and you get it around lvl 25.

EDIT: I agree basculin should move down. Its not exactly good enough for B tier anyway.

Edited by Marth
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Oh yeah, other changes not mentioned:

Petlil was moved down to B tier, below Roggenrola. QD+ Sleep Powder+ Petal Dance+ own Tempo is awesome, yeah, but its just a grass type finally. And grass types dont exactly hit a lot of weaknesses in this game.

Durant moved up, still in C tier, but above Litwick. Being usable in the elite four without much training is better than what Patrat and Pansage can claim, and Litwick needs training and effort before it becmes pretty usable.

Now, my suggestion: Move Vanilite into B tier, below Terrakion. Here's why:

Its found before Clay's gym and does pretty decent against his Krokorok. Sweet.

Its good against Skyla. Cool.

Its good against Brycen with Mirror Shot/Flash Cannon. Awesome.

Its good against Iris/Drayden and hits their pokemon for super effective hits. Very few pokemon can claim that.

It has an average performance in the elite four, but its not horrible either.

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Its found before Clay's gym and does pretty decent against his Krokorok. Sweet.

Being decent against a Krokorok, a mon with numerous weaknesses, is not exactly an acheivment. I'd be more keen to point out that it's not too effective against Palpitoads, and the Drillbur/Excadrill's Metal Claws mess it up bad (and Excadrill Rock Slide too, along with no vulnerability).

Its good against Skyla. Cool.

While this is easy, it's true I suppose

Its good against Brycen with Mirror Shot/Flash Cannon. Awesome.

This is NOT true. See, the issue is that these moves are not exactly fast killing, the many Cryognals are very special bulky, and Brycen's Beartic will find that a hilarious joke.

Its good against Iris/Drayden and hits their pokemon for super effective hits. Very few pokemon can claim that.

Now THIS is not only true, but something to be proud of as only Axew can really claim the same.

It has an average performance in the elite four, but its not horrible either.

I dunno, being to Avalanche Ghetsis's Hydreigon and one shotting it sounds like a huge accomplishment.

Regardless I'll sy that I somewhat agree with the tier, but I dunno about Terrakion levels. Then again, never used Terrakion so I wouldn't know.

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Drilbur is actually only decent thanks to an awful start. As it comes at Lvl 10-13, he's relying on a moveset of Mud Sport, Rapid Spin, Mud-Slap and Fury Swipes. Suffice to say, training it is a chore until Dig at Lvl 19. (It does learn Metal Claw at 15, but its a pretty bad move too). Pokemon who are a liability when they join are not SS material.

I'd put it below Sandile (Who I think could move up due to joining right when the Dig TM is available, hence having no significant time period when its a liability).

I agree; heck, that's the reason why I wanted Drilbur to drop in the first place. Or at least, that's part of it; after Wellspring, the next location where Drilbur can be caught is... Chargestone Cave. That's over half the game you'd have to wait to avoid Drilbur's period of suck.

Edited by Metal King Slime
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