S Rank FE5 Tier List

[grandjackal]

Um, why is 2 PCC being laughed at, anyway? Let's consider the Tania + Othin team. (two way support).

A rather 1 sided support.

Give Tania a killer bow.

Yes, B rank bows, since she can just use those off the bat.

Level 17 Tania, for example, has ~15 skill. Come on, give her some scroll use if you question the rounding up. Doesn't take much.

By then, Ronan would have 15 Speed or more, which means he would Adept as often as he re-moves, or more often than that. With Adept and Re-Move in mind, Ronan gets to B rank faster. There's PCC with killers, and then there's Brave with Adept and Re-move.

But hey, if we're giving people scrolls, I could give Ronan Hezul. A scroll that Tanya would prefer would be Odo or Neir, which is a nice wait away, and have either heavy competition (everyone wants Neir), or have strong competition (who to give Odo to, Tanya or Fergus...).

15 + 30 + 10 = 55. 55. Assume an enemy has 10 luck (not many have more). 5 cev. 50 x 2 = 100 crit. Guaranteed crit. Ronan is at 10 skill at level 17 and killer gets him to 40 and Leaf gets him to 50. Remove that 5 cev. 45% crit compared to 100%. What I'm saying is she basically will kill everything she attacks once you reach a certain point in the game. Even before that, the 2PCC will still likely give better death chances than Ronan's adept.

You seem to have forgotten re-move here. While PCC and that in mind would allow her to crit on the second shot, he can make up possibly with Adept and Re-move, as then it is possible he can wound/kill 2 units in one turn as opposed to Tanya's one.

That, and what the hell is Othin doing during this? It's a bond, they need to be right next to eachother. If she doesn't crit, all she did was chip, and this doesn't happen unless Othin is right next to her. If he is, chances are it's because he's attacking something. If by some miracle it's not dead, I doubt they'd need something like a crit on the second attack to be killed. If Othin is moving just to stand next to Tanya to give her this effect, he's not killing and thus is a bad use of Othin, therefore this is a very situational situation.

I can at least imagine Leaf wanting to stand back a bit to avoid the enemy or offer his support to someone.

And she has a better build growth and better speed growth and the same base speed assuming 7+ wt weapons.

Her build growth is better, but at 20/20 her build will never beat Ronan's base build, and I highly doubt Ronan's failing to double things either.

Long Bow has 11 wt. Level 11 Tania has 10 or 11 attack speed. Level 13 Ronan has 9 or 10. I gave him 2 extra levels and she's still a bit faster and a littler stronger. And she has a lot more crit to counteract his two shots at 9 or 10 % adept. This isn't fe4 where you get an extra 20 added to your attack speed to get your proc rate. And crits are way more powerful, too.

Yet again, this ignores re-move. This is also not quite ensured crit here even with her PCC, so she's not garunteed to kill what she attacks. Ronan on the other hand is able to have an answer to this, in the form of wounding 2 units as opposed to one, which helps 2 people avoid a counter rather than just one. This stacked with the fact he has Adept and that it's not like he isn't able to crit himself (just isn't as likely), it's not to say he can't kill things on his own as well, given how he is capable of attacking more often.

And after promotion they are approximately even on move, too. Now, he does have a 3% to her 2% for move growth, but that's not major.

After promotion I can agree that she wins, as he starts to become weak enough that all those attacks soon won't matter if they do dingy damage. However, the question is will either be seriously used for that long? If not, I would still say Ronan at least comes close with his Re-Move and Adept, which also in turn allows him to reach C rank sooner, which gives him all the more reason to early promote (more speed for Adept, 2 more Str, now has B rank for all those awesome bows like the Brave Bow, Killer Bow, etc.).

[Narga_Rocks]

A rather 1 sided support.

Yes, B rank bows, since she can just use those off the bat.

By then, Ronan would have 15 Speed or more, which means he would Adept as often as he re-moves, or more often than that. With Adept and Re-Move in mind, Ronan gets to B rank faster. There's PCC with killers, and then there's Brave with Adept and Re-move.

But hey, if we're giving people scrolls, I could give Ronan Hezul. A scroll that Tanya would prefer would be Odo or Neir, which is a nice wait away, and have either heavy competition (everyone wants Neir), or have strong competition (who to give Odo to, Tanya or Fergus...).

Um, she's like 0.2 off of that number I said. We are talking one level with Odo. Or a few with Baldo or something that gives +5 skill. I'm perfectly happy with you letting Ronan have Hezul for one level if you want. Go right ahead.

And they will eventually reach B rank bows. Why wouldn't they? Obviously they can't use them at first, but oh well. And Tanya doubles more. You can pull out something light like an iron bow and at base she has one more speed (and remember, better growth). Adept and re-move can only maybe cancel that, not beat it. Well, she does have just 10 to his 30 starting wexp, but it won't be a big gap in time.

But how is Othin a one-sided support? Are you always using Pugi or something so that he gets to 100% off his PCC and skill alone? The thing is, she still gives him more hit, more crit, more crit evade (relevant if he doesn't happen to have a scroll on him), more avoid. He's far from some unkillable god, so the avoid matters, and without Pugi (assuming you don't give him wrath) he's also not crit-blicking everything. Level 17 Othin has 11 skill. Now he's a guy it may be worth giving Odo for a bit. But if you don't? He still gets 21 crit with her, so say a 5 cev enemy and that's 16 x 3 = 48. Much better than 6 x 3 = 18. And a battle axe (when he finally reaches B axes) means 78 vs. 48. Hardly one-sided, and it's not as if this is RD where you can choose which ones exist and thus a one sided support means a unit is less likely to get it. If she is within 3 of the guy, she will be getting this boost, and he will be getting his. Even if it was truly one-sided (as in, Othin doesn't get any boosts, kinda like Dagda->Marty for Dagda) that still wouldn't matter. she'd still be able to follow him around and get boosts. The fact that he gets something too just makes it better. Ronan doesn't help anyone. All he can do is follow Leaf around. Given fatigue, that is an advantage since Othin gets sidelined, too, but you could probably make Othin and Tania line-up for when they get sidelined. That about cancels Ronan getting sidelined anyway.

You seem to have forgotten re-move here. While PCC and that in mind would allow her to crit on the second shot, he can make up possibly with Adept and Re-move, as then it is possible he can wound/kill 2 units in one turn as opposed to Tanya's one.

100% kill vs. 15% remove and not being particularly likely to kill either thing he attacks. Guaranteed kill vs. hoping for even a single kill?

That, and what the hell is Othin doing during this? It's a bond, they need to be right next to eachother. If she doesn't crit, all she did was chip, and this doesn't happen unless Othin is right next to her. If he is, chances are it's because he's attacking something. If by some miracle it's not dead, I doubt they'd need something like a crit on the second attack to be killed. If Othin is moving just to stand next to Tanya to give her this effect, he's not killing and thus is a bad use of Othin, therefore this is a very situational situation.

Did you even read dondon's post? It's 3 spaces in this game. And this after you were bragging about how you check your facts now. And why wouldn't she crit when she has 100%?

I can at least imagine Leaf wanting to stand back a bit to avoid the enemy or offer his support to someone.

Point?

Her build growth is better, but at 20/20 her build will never beat Ronan's base build, and I highly doubt Ronan's failing to double things either.

There's more than just 0 speed enemies, you know. And later on it doesn't matter anyway. 20/20 Tanya has 17 speed with brave bow and 18 with killer bow. Ronan has 18 or 19 with brave and 19 or 20 with killer. Not a big difference. There will be more non-doubling (quadding) by Ronan early than Tanya late.

Yet again, this ignores re-move. This is also not quite ensured crit here even with her PCC, so she's not garunteed to kill what she attacks. Ronan on the other hand is able to have an answer to this, in the form of wounding 2 units as opposed to one, which helps 2 people avoid a counter rather than just one. This stacked with the fact he has Adept and that it's not like he isn't able to crit himself (just isn't as likely), it's not to say he can't kill things on his own as well, given how he is capable of attacking more often.

Did you miss the 100% bit that results from killer bow + support? That is a guaranteed crit, barring those annoying 1% misses because the game won't let you go above 99. Wounding 2 vs. killing 1? And he only wounds 2, what, 15% of the time? His crit is unreliable.

After promotion I can agree that she wins, as he starts to become weak enough that all those attacks soon won't matter if they do dingy damage. However, the question is will either be seriously used for that long? If not, I would still say Ronan at least comes close with his Re-Move and Adept, which also in turn allows him to reach C rank sooner, which gives him all the more reason to early promote (more speed for Adept, 2 more Str, now has B rank for all those awesome bows like the Brave Bow, Killer Bow, etc.).

I don't get why you don't like Tanya for the long haul. I think it's nice to have a good sniper capable of murdering things. Tanya will be better at it than Ronan. Therefore if I'm raising either it'll be her. Even early on, she's still better at it due to 9 more hit and soon to be more str. And yes, it is skill x 2 + luck in this game rather than skill x 2 + luck/2 like on the GBA. And she has a 170% hit growth rather than his 110% hit growth, meaning the gap will only increase over time.

so, she's faster with heavier weapons, has better hit with them, does more damage, and more frequently gets to attack twice. His response? 9% adept at level 17 with long bow (3 more mt than iron bow and same hit) and 15% re-move. Re-move is nice, especially 15%, I'll give you that, but that's pretty much all he has against her.

[Don Draper]

Few things:

And they will eventually reach B rank bows. Why wouldn't they? Obviously they can't use them at first, but oh well. And Tanya doubles more. You can pull out something light like an iron bow and at base she has one more speed (and remember, better growth). Adept and re-move can only maybe cancel that, not beat it. Well, she does have just 10 to his 30 starting wexp, but it won't be a big gap in time.

Tanya needs 140 hits to get B Bows. Between Chapters 1-3 being whipped through in no time, and having no availability in Chapters 4-8, that doesn't give a whole lot of time for her to train her weapon rank. It likely won't be B until the later chapters, in which case we're skipping through chapters anyways. Also, AS leads are mostly irrelivant in this game. With a few notable exceptions like bosses, most enemies have absolutely terrible AS. Both Ronan and Tanya will have no problem whatsoever doubling. If Dagda doesn't have problems doubling for the majority of the game with his 9 AS, then neither will the archers.

But how is Othin a one-sided support? Are you always using Pugi or something so that he gets to 100% off his PCC and skill alone? The thing is, she still gives him more hit, more crit, more crit evade (relevant if he doesn't happen to have a scroll on him), more avoid. He's far from some unkillable god, so the avoid matters, and without Pugi (assuming you don't give him wrath) he's also not crit-blicking everything. Level 17 Othin has 11 skill. Now he's a guy it may be worth giving Odo for a bit. But if you don't? He still gets 21 crit with her, so say a 5 cev enemy and that's 16 x 3 = 48. Much better than 6 x 3 = 18. And a battle axe (when he finally reaches B axes) means 78 vs. 48. Hardly one-sided, and it's not as if this is RD where you can choose which ones exist and thus a one sided support means a unit is less likely to get it. If she is within 3 of the guy, she will be getting this boost, and he will be getting his. Even if it was truly one-sided (as in, Othin doesn't get any boosts, kinda like Dagda->Marty for Dagda) that still wouldn't matter. she'd still be able to follow him around and get boosts. The fact that he gets something too just makes it better. Ronan doesn't help anyone. All he can do is follow Leaf around. Given fatigue, that is an advantage since Othin gets sidelined, too, but you could probably make Othin and Tania line-up for when they get sidelined. That about cancels Ronan getting sidelined anyway.

What do you mean you don't give him Wrath? Thats a natural skill for him and its what makes him so incredible. He really doesn't need any support, and its often an efficient strategy to warp him into a group of enemies by himself.

There's more than just 0 speed enemies, you know. And later on it doesn't matter anyway. 20/20 Tanya has 17 speed with brave bow and 18 with killer bow. Ronan has 18 or 19 with brave and 19 or 20 with killer. Not a big difference. There will be more non-doubling (quadding) by Ronan early than Tanya late.

Again, if Dagda has very few doubling problems with his 9 AS, then neither archer will either. And 20/20 Tanya? Come on, seriously? She'll be lucky to hit 15/1 in AAA.

Did you miss the 100% bit that results from killer bow + support? That is a guaranteed crit, barring those annoying 1% misses because the game won't let you go above 99. Wounding 2 vs. killing 1? And he only wounds 2, what, 15% of the time? His crit is unreliable.

Again, B Bows isn't happening until lategame, at which point we're warpskipping.

I don't get why you don't like Tanya for the long haul. I think it's nice to have a good sniper capable of murdering things. Tanya will be better at it than Ronan. Therefore if I'm raising either it'll be her. Even early on, she's still better at it due to 9 more hit and soon to be more str. And yes, it is skill x 2 + luck in this game rather than skill x 2 + luck/2 like on the GBA. And she has a 170% hit growth rather than his 110% hit growth, meaning the gap will only increase over time.

so, she's faster with heavier weapons, has better hit with them, does more damage, and more frequently gets to attack twice. His response? 9% adept at level 17 with long bow (3 more mt than iron bow and same hit) and 15% re-move. Re-move is nice, especially 15%, I'll give you that, but that's pretty much all he has against her.

Her murdering things is extremely luck dependent for the majority of the game. Lets take a look at 16A (which we might want to play out if we have some extra turns, due to high exp potential)

Lvl 15 Tanya (likely being very generous): 18 Atk w/Long Bow

Armors: 28 HP/13 Def Needs a critical at 28% chance to ORKO

Social Knights: 34 HP/9 Def See above

Arch Knight: 30 HP/13 Def Can't ORKO even with a critical

Brigands: 26 HP/6 Def Needs a critical at 28% chance to ORKO

Archers: 28 HP/6 Def. Same

She's completely dependent on criticals in order to ORKO, and at 28% chance and only being useful on player phase, that doesn't say a lot about her long term potential.

[Narga_Rocks]

Tanya needs 140 hits to get B Bows. Between Chapters 1-3 being whipped through in no time, and having no availability in Chapters 4-8, that doesn't give a whole lot of time for her to train her weapon rank. It likely won't be B until the later chapters, in which case we're skipping through chapters anyways. Also, AS leads are mostly irrelivant in this game. With a few notable exceptions like bosses, most enemies have absolutely terrible AS. Both Ronan and Tanya will have no problem whatsoever doubling. If Dagda doesn't have problems doubling for the majority of the game with his 9 AS, then neither will the archers.

I thought I had more issues doubling along the way with heavy things like long bows. You still need to hit 4 attack speed, even if they have 0.

What do you mean you don't give him Wrath? Thats a natural skill for him and its what makes him so incredible. He really doesn't need any support, and its often an efficient strategy to warp him into a group of enemies by himself.

Yeah, that was an oops. Though I still think he's not durable enough to always survive if you warp him. Also, player phase. And if he misses the first attack the second isn't guaranteed to crit. I suppose not OHKOing with a crit isn't a common problem, though.

Again, if Dagda has very few doubling problems with his 9 AS, then neither archer will either. And 20/20 Tanya? Come on, seriously? She'll be lucky to hit 15/1 in AAA.

Yeah, I know 20/20 won't happen, though GJ brought up their 20/20 so I just went with it. It's only relevant for build, anyway, and if doubling isn't a problem, who needs build?

Again, B Bows isn't happening until lategame, at which point we're warpskipping.

+1 from promotion. Needs 90. 45 attacks with doubling. That's not happening? Guess I need to look over the listed turncounts more closely.

Her murdering things is extremely luck dependent for the majority of the game. Lets take a look at 16A (which we might want to play out if we have some extra turns, due to high exp potential)

Lvl 15 Tanya (likely being very generous): 18 Atk w/Long Bow

Armors: 28 HP/13 Def Needs a critical at 28% chance to ORKO

Social Knights: 34 HP/9 Def See above

Arch Knight: 30 HP/13 Def Can't ORKO even with a critical

Brigands: 26 HP/6 Def Needs a critical at 28% chance to ORKO

Archers: 28 HP/6 Def. Same

She's completely dependent on criticals in order to ORKO, and at 28% chance and only being useful on player phase, that doesn't say a lot about her long term potential.

Well, obviously she needs killers for murdering. And if we just compare the two of them at low levels, she is still slightly faster meaning quicker to 4 attack speed with long bows (if all enemies have 0, which I still dispute) and thus more damage. And it's still a bit better crit which counteracts Ronan's adept and with Othin it's enough to counteract his little 15% re-move. Plus I doubt Ronan is 3HKOing much anyway.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Don Draper]

I'm not doubting Tanya>Ronan, although I think she could stand to drop. I didn't consider a promotion to be fair, and I could see C Bows by around Chapter 16, so from then on she probably wouldn't have any issues using the Brave Bow when Xavier isn't using it. However, I'm unsure as to whether the turncount limits will let her level at a decent pace or not.

Jackal, maybe compare Tanya to somebody else who's a bit closer to her in the tier list?

[grandjackal]

I thought I had more issues doubling along the way with heavy things like long bows. You still need to hit 4 attack speed, even if they have 0.

Longbows are 11 weight. Ronan has 7 base speed and 7 build. 2 levels isn't that hard to ask.

Yeah, I know 20/20 won't happen, though GJ brought up their 20/20 so I just went with it. It's only relevant for build, anyway, and if doubling isn't a problem, who needs build?

Thus, AS isn't an issue for Ronan.

+1 from promotion. Needs 90. 45 attacks with doubling. That's not happening? Guess I need to look over the listed turncounts more closely.

Fun facts about Ronan.

-Ronan starts with 20 more rank base. Tanya starts with E(10), Ronan starts with E(30).

-Adept adds to weapon rank this time around.

-Ronan's got Re-move.

Guess who gets there first?

Well, obviously she needs killers for murdering. And if we just compare the two of them at low levels, she is still slightly faster meaning quicker to 4 attack speed with long bows (if all enemies have 0, which I still dispute) and thus more damage. And it's still a bit better crit which counteracts Ronan's adept and with Othin it's enough to counteract his little 15% re-move. Plus I doubt Ronan is 3HKOing much anyway.

Does it counteract Ronan having Brave Bow access? Because he gets to C first, and thus I have more reason to promote him early, such as level 10. This counteracts the "15/1 for archers ain't happening" argument.

I'm not doubting Tanya>Ronan, although I think she could stand to drop. I didn't consider a promotion to be fair, and I could see C Bows by around Chapter 16, so from then on she probably wouldn't have any issues using the Brave Bow when Xavier isn't using it. However, I'm unsure as to whether the turncount limits will let her level at a decent pace or not.

Jackal, maybe compare Tanya to somebody else who's a bit closer to her in the tier list?

I did, do you really think Tanya compares to Amalda? Originally I was thinking Amalda could rise to the tier above her, but if it's any cause to show that Tanya seems far out of place where she is...

[Don Draper]

Tanya is above Amalda right now, and I think it would be best if you compared Tanya to an unpromoted character in the same tier as her. I think you can definitely make a case for Robert>Tanya due to her not getting much of a level advantage with earlygame chapters being completed ASAP.

[grandjackal]

Well, lessee.

Robert starts with 5 Str, of which Tanya needs 6 levels to get. Considering we've been over the whole build and con deal, Robert's 8 AS should not be an issue. Tanya's re-recruitment does not happen far from when Robert "joins" as a defender of the fort with Selphina. So when it comes to a direct comparison and the fact that Tanya's only got 4 chapters to level before he joins, chances are they will statistically be quite similar.

However, this is only a good thing for Robert, because he has a mount and thus he has more move+Canto. This makes him far easier to reposition, so he doesn't need to be defended so abruptly. He's free to hit and run as he pleases.

He's also got a move star. It's not Ronan's 15% chance per turn of having a second move, but he still has one where Tanya doesn't. This will come into play at least at some points of the game.

Robert's also got better growths while essentially having better bases outside of speed of which is good enough anyways. He will grow to be the hardest hitting bowman on the team outside of perhaps Dagdar, who's got better things to do than use bows all the time. This makes his low starting level compared to Tanya's at this point in time more of an advantage as his leveling speed will be absurd (All archers have a faster leveling speed than normal combat units, in case anyone forgot). Those great growths come into play pretty quick.

Finally, we got Robert's holy bejesus PCC of 3, which is a whopper. To give you an idea on how good that is, if he stands next to Selphina, he's already got 46 crit packing. That's harsh, nearly every other second attack he lands is a crit, and he doesn't even have a crit weapon. This also makes him a valuable cantidate for the Odo scroll, as 1 Skill is essentially +3 crit to him. It's even nicer when it's on a range unit, as it means he doesn't have to eat a counter while he takes a shot. Even Fergus has to eat a counter before he can put that 5PCC to good use. While Tanya could use it too, it's arguably pt to better use on a mobile unit who hits harder and has Canto.

Speaking of Selphina, she is pretty good to have along, especially when she gets the Brave Bow. While her long term use is questionable, I don't think it's absurd to say that a mobile archer with Canto and Duel is a bad thing early on. Especially one that can use any bow she wants that isn't a Master Bow, of which doesn't exist at this point in time. Also considering she also has Canto, it's easy to assume when she strikes that her repositioning can more often than not be in a position to give Robert the bonus he loves and use it well at the same time. Chances are it will come into play more often than Tanya's supports, of which if she's doing her job right, shouldn't really be of outstanding value. At least, not "Hey, watch me take this 46 crit potshot at base level" good.

However, he does have one big glaring problem. E Bows. Even Tanya and Ronan should be at D by now. If they can get to C by the time they are level 10, they can just choose to promote early and now they got access to the good bows. To give that a statistical comparison.

10/1 Tanya: 25.4 HP, 8.15 Str, 3.35 Mag, 13.95 Skill, 18.3 Speed, 11.4 Luck, 5.35 Def, 5.45 Build, 7.18 Move

10/1 Ronan: 23.6HP, 7.35 Str, 5.95 Mag, 10.05 Skill, 14.95 Speed, 4.8 Luck, 4.45 Def, 8.18 Build, 7.27 Move

Level 8 Robert: 27.55 HP, 8.15 Str, 0.7 Mag, 7.5 Skill, 12.2 Speed, 10.9 Luck, 5.75 Def, 8.4 Build, 8.07 Move

Tanya's got bow rank to go with her PCC, and Ronan's got bow rank to go with his Adept and Re-moving which allows him a sort of Ghetto Canto along with a possible second attack, along with the support of the everpresent Leaf. They're all faster than him, they aren't lagging that far behind his horse, and they both are better indoors. He's not quite offensively comparing as they are using better bows compared to him, despite his 3 PCC.

He's certainly the most durable out of them all aside from magic resistance (where Ronan wins), but they do have leads. On the other hand, that is a double edged sword, as he is statistically comparing to them without having promoted. Considering his 3 PCC and the fact he will eventually destroy them in Str, does one think he would really care about what kind of bow he's using. Once he hits 20 Skill, as long as he's got a support, he's always getting 90 on his second attack. He could probably make due with a Steel bow.

Considering he doesn't care for high rank, it stands to say he could make great use of the Great Bow after promotion due to his superior build (damn thing weighs 16 weight, Robert won't lose nearly as much speed as these guys with it), which just makes him a moving cannon with the sucker (it's 16 might, strongest bow in might). Him holding that thing with his 3 PCC is just frightening.

Only thing he doesn't really have an answer to is earlygame utility where Ronan and Tanya could help reduce enemy health as to avoid counters early on, along with making capturing a lot easier, as they help others do it more per turn than just having Dagdar do all the capturing for us.

To be honest, I think all the archers need to be closer, and I don't think they're quite Low Tier materiel. Problem is, I'm just not sure where they'd fit. However, in the end I still realize...Amalda should probably be in the tier above them. Her flexibility compared to them along with not needing a master seal I feel outdoes them existing for longer, despite how they would be used.

Perhaps they could stand to all be above Dalshien? Speaking of which, I feel flight utility alone is enough to warrent Eda above him as well.

Then again, maybe that's just me not being a big fan of Dalshien...

Edited April 24, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Tanya is above Amalda right now, and I think it would be best if you compared Tanya to an unpromoted character in the same tier as her. I think you can definitely make a case for Robert>Tanya due to her not getting much of a level advantage with earlygame chapters being completed ASAP.

Yeah but looking at the turn count estimates it's not like Robert's gonna be doing much than her with said lack of level advantage. She's still has the support Othin gives her, and the support she gives to Othin and Dagda. Plus her weapon rank is still likely to end up higher earlier Steel Bow use against Armors and Robert would need Selphina or Glade on his side to get the support bonus he seriously wants.

Robert seems like one of those characters that require babying to be good, I don't think he has that kind of luxury with the ranks in mind.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Speedwagon

[grandjackal]

Yeah but looking at the turn count estimates it's not like Robert's gonna be doing much than her with said lack of level advantage. She's still has the support Othin gives her, and the support she gives to Othin and Dagda. Plus her weapon rank is still likely to end up higher earlier Steel Bow use against Armors and Robert would need Selphina or Glade on his side to get the support bonus he seriously wants.

Robert seems like one of those characters that require babying to be good, I don't think he has that kind of luxury with the ranks in mind.

Sir, you got ninja'd by my humongous post. He doesn't really need babying thanks to his base Str (compared to our other archers upon him joining) and PCC. Really, Robert's only real issue when joining up is his rank blows. Eventually, his stats and 3 PCC makes up for it.

Also, to anyone else, who thinks Dalshin promoting early is a fine idea? Most others probably wouldn't care to promote early (Fergus, Brighton), are too low level to manage by the first seal and would probably be level in time by the next set of crests (most others). We get a 6 move 31 HP 16 Def behemoth with full weapon control early on. He starts near the Sety Scroll, so a bit of attention with that could land him 7 AS after promotion, which is pretty nifty. Though yeah, there is the question of exactly how helpful this is later on, but...It is just a suggestion.

[Salad Utensil]

Also, to anyone else, who thinks Dalshin promoting early is a fine idea? Most others probably wouldn't care to promote early (Fergus, Brighton), are too low level to manage by the first seal and would probably be level in time by the next set of crests (most others). We get a 6 move 31 HP 16 Def behemoth with full weapon control early on. He starts near the Sety Scroll, so a bit of attention with that could land him 7 AS after promotion, which is pretty nifty. Though yeah, there is the question of exactly how helpful this is later on, but...It is just a suggestion.

He's pretty bad past his forced period. Besides ideally you want to promote Asvel and Safy with the 1st two proofs and now you only have 9 more to distribute among all your other characters including Sara and Salem. Proofs are kinda rare in this game and the opportunity cost of use is high.

Brief overview until Xavier is recruited, since he became redundant after Xavier joined I didn't care enough to entertain the notion of using him past chapter 18.

Chapter 6 Hurts turncourt because if you plan to not abandon him in chapter 5 Lara can't reach the door in one turn >.>. Also carrying him is going to lower the movement of your mounts so you finish the chapter slower

Chapter 7 will likely be the last PC to reach Mease and also will get doubled by the swordfighters with kill swords and silvers. Carrying him means you cause your mounts to have halved movement which slows down your team overall.

Chapter 8 Fatigued

Chapter 8X there are hammer wielding bandits in the mansion somewhere so you have to be careful with him. If he can't double the brigands or 2RKO them (very possible)in niche points while you try to reach Gomes, he slows you down a lot

Chapter 9 The terrain prevents dalshien from reaching the mansion, unless you have Karin move him over the mountains. He is also useless due to the forest terrain limiting him so much

Chapter 10 While tanking could be useful here, hammer units and Olwen ruin the fun.

Chapter 11 You have a corridor you have to get through that is only 1 space wide and a forest to get past. Dalshien's 5 move makes him very inferior.

Chapter 11X there are mages in the gauntlet run and dalshien has bad dodge, bad resistence, low movement, and has very low hit with hand axes.

Chapter 12 He has terribad move in forests so...

Chapter 12X Warp skip, even so, his bad move makes him unattractive for chest opening after Pahn is recruited

Chapter 13 escape chapter is bad for dalshien he will waste too many turns reaching tahra

Chapter 14 hammer wielding axe armors ruin a perfect opportunity to tank

Chapter 14X He gets hit hard by the dark mages and the killer axe hero doubles him. Karin and Dean need to rescue him if he wants to get past those mountains and prevent him from escaping otherwise

Chapter 15 he reduces the movement of Karin, Dean and Eda if he is carried to the villages

Chapter 16 On A route his movement is bad compared to all of your other units

Chapter 17 On A route how do you plan to get him past those forests?

Chapter 18 Lenster armor knights have hammers!

In summary: Dalshien shouldn't be fielded after Manster prison escape he should be left behind by chapter 6 >.> to save a couple of turns in chapter 6 and 7 when you want to just escape ASAP.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Brighton

[Rodykitty]

Does it counteract Ronan having Brave Bow access? Because he gets to C first, and thus I have more reason to promote him early, such as level 10. This counteracts the "15/1 for archers ain't happening" argument.

This doesn't counter against 15/1 arguments, it just means Ronan reaches some weapon rank sooner before getting ditched.

[grandjackal]

He's pretty bad past his forced period. Besides ideally you want to promote Asvel and Safy with the 1st two proofs and now you only have 9 more to distribute among all your other characters including Sara and Salem. Proofs are kinda rare in this game and the opportunity cost of use is high.

Good replacement units and other units who don't need crests to be good also exist, and by lategame we're just going to be warp-haxing by warping like the one guy we trained up to do half this shit. You have plenty to spare in the time beforehand.

Now let's see how much this helps.

Chapter 6 Hurts turncourt because if you plan to not abandon him in chapter 5 Lara can't reach the door in one turn >.>. Also carrying him is going to lower the movement of your mounts so you finish the chapter slower

This is what rescue chains are for. There is a vast emptiness of enemies knowing you're even around at the start, you can get by in the time it takes for Karin to gather all the good and fly off the other escape route. I have done this before, quite simple.

Chapter 7 will likely be the last PC to reach Mease and also will get doubled by the swordfighters with kill swords and silvers. Carrying him means you cause your mounts to have halved movement which slows down your team overall.

Luckily, you can get a knight's proof just at the start by having Karin fly over to get it. This gives him 6 move, so now he's less of a problem to get to the fort, as now he can walk by himself for the most part. He also gets lances to fight those mercenaries, working WTA for the defensive bonus. He has 16 Def and 31 HP, 5 AS on average at least. The Silver Sword is 14 might, even if they do double, at worst they'd do what, 5x2 damage? Kill swords are 9 might. Legitimate worry that can be eliminated by letting Dalshin hold a scroll. All that's left is the iron swordie who dings and the claymore dude who does probably 3x2 damage. On the other end of this is a dude wielding most likely a Short Lance, packing 19-20 might. To give you an idea on how strong that is, the strongest sword you have is Steel. Fergus needs to be level 18 to pull that off, or 6 levels to do that with the weighty inaccurate Iron Claymore. That's 2 might less than Brighton with his steel axe.

Even if we weren't killing the boss to halt reinforcements, the Rapier is 4 might. Let's say hte cav has 8 Str. That's only 8 damage to Dalshin, 4RKO so he can survive 3 if they canto rush him. Suck down a vulnery, keep moving forward.

Chapter 8 Fatigued

Fair enough.

Chapter 8X there are hammer wielding bandits in the mansion somewhere so you have to be careful with him. If he can't double the brigands or 2RKO them (very possible)in niche points while you try to reach Gomes, he slows you down a lot

Now he's got bows, so he can chip accurately at those hammers (probably doubling as well, as bandits are slow as shit and hammers are heavy, doing so with 19-22 might depending if it's a short bow or iron). He can now shoot over walls at the archers to make the rooms safe to go into, laughing off the poison damage and generally everything else with his lol 16 Def.

Everyone else only has 6 move in this place (save Ronan and Dagdar, Dagdar of which is a bit pre-occupied at the moment), he's not slowing us down a bit. If anything, he's making this map that much safer.

Chapter 9 The terrain prevents dalshien from reaching the mansion, unless you have Karin move him over the mountains. He is also useless due to the forest terrain limiting him so much

Who's more perfect for distracting the dragon knights? They fly north at the mountains first. He heads south, he'll be ready to intercept them. He doesn't have to distract them all, but the main party would enjoy only having to deal with 3 rather than 5. Karin's going south anyways, there's a village she has to get and a bishop she has to capture. Dalshin rolls over the mountains, helps take care of the armors, Karin helps him fly to the fort from there.

Chapter 10 While tanking could be useful here, hammer units and Olwen ruin the fun.

Of which are also armors, Dalshien can also pick up the hammer ya know.

Only exception is the armorslayer cav, of which he has a bow for. Olwen's moot, everyone's scared shitless of her.

Chapter 11 You have a corridor you have to get through that is only 1 space wide and a forest to get past. Dalshien's 5 move makes him very inferior.

Now he's got 6 move, making him no better off than most, and is especially helpful for when the ballista show up as he can rescue whoever's around and hide them inside his iron body.

Speaking of which, most of those enemies down that 1 path corridor are armors. Dalshien has 15 Str and a hammer, giving him 54 effective might. I'd have a hard time believing an armor can survive that.

Chapter 11X there are mages in the gauntlet run and dalshien has bad dodge, bad resistence, low movement, and has very low hit with hand axes.

Now with normal movement, an accurate counter with bows, and can double with his 5 AS versus their magic weighed down AS.

So he'll need holy water. Who wouldn't here?

Chapter 12 He has terribad move in forests so...

He's had a busy few days, he might be fatigued anyways.

Chapter 12X Warp skip, even so, his bad move makes him unattractive for chest opening after Pahn is recruited

Everyone hates this chapter, irrelevent, I'd want to warp-skip anyways.

Chapter 13 escape chapter is bad for dalshien he will waste too many turns reaching tahra

He's not a mount here, but he can still rescue people and move through ballista without fear.

Chapter 14 hammer wielding axe armors ruin a perfect opportunity to tank

If I recall, they're all in the south invasion, meaning they don't last long. Furthermore, he can hammer back, and now has bows to fight off the Thracian dragon knights.

Chapter 14X He gets hit hard by the dark mages and the killer axe hero doubles him. Karin and Dean need to rescue him if he wants to get past those mountains and prevent him from escaping otherwise

This place sucks for him regardless, I'll give you this one.

Chapter 15 he reduces the movement of Karin, Dean and Eda if he is carried to the villages

Not that this chapter should take long with those three helping us out with said villages.

Chapter 16 On A route his movement is bad compared to all of your other units

16 A, perfect long range fodder for the ballista and can act as a savior by rescuing someone to distract Eyrios, keeping him close with his Thunderstorm while Karin comes in for the recruit. Also, Pole-Axe.

Chapter 17 On A route how do you plan to get him past those forests?

Fly him to the right, plant him to distract the armors. He's tough stuff, has the hammer, can potentially flatten them before Cyrus shows up, giving you a clean pathway to the throne. Even if Cyrus DOES show up, he's too tough to give a damn, he can still act as a distraction.

Chapter 18 Lenster armor knights have hammers!

Watch as he pulls away the Freege knights with the hand axes from the ridge below with his bow...

From there.

Chapter 19: Fatigued

Chapter 20: Hammertime on the armors, making getting to the boss before the long range shows up quite simple. When the ballistas do show up, he can rescue the squishier guys to protect them as he runs back.

From there, we're probably warpskipping anyways because that's when I'm allowed to stop giving a fuck.

In summary: Dalshien shouldn't be fielded after Manster prison escape he should be left behind by chapter 6 >.> to save a couple of turns in chapter 6 and 7 when you want to just escape ASAP.

Chapter 6 is less an issue than you think, and he's fixable from chapter 7 onwards thanks to the early proofing. Asvel can live with waiting, Saphy can have the second one as she only cares about a rank jump if she has B, since she only cares to have it by Salem's chapter (if we're so desperate for the Sleep Staff anyways). I think it's less an issue than you think.

@Illyana, if Ronan's getting ditched at level 10, what makes Tanya any different?

Edited April 24, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Robert starts with 5 Str, of which Tanya needs 6 levels to get. Considering we've been over the whole build and con deal, Robert's 8 AS should not be an issue. Tanya's re-recruitment does not happen far from when Robert "joins" as a defender of the fort with Selphina. So when it comes to a direct comparison and the fact that Tanya's only got 4 chapters to level before he joins, chances are they will statistically be quite similar.

4 chapters of use that isn't taking any slot from anyone and is improving...

1. Dagda's capturing. +10% hit when he can pull off 2-4 hits and +10% crit on each. Good stuff.

2. Othin's Player phase and enemy. Like Robert, he has 3 PCC so Tanya just being around means +30% crit for Othin on Pursuit so we don't have to waste Pugi on these earlygame suckers and Hand Axe won't miss as often with the +10% hit. The +10 helps in that, he's likely to get and thus less likely to have to stop to use a Vulnerary, reducing the possibilities of the RNG making you finish a turn later and such.

3. 8x. You've got 8 Bandits sitting pretty close to Dagda and Tanya and let's not forget how Duel will make most of these attack twice if Dagda happens to miss his first 2 counter-attacks (which her support helps with). Never mind that you have a couple more when the thief opens the door to Gomez.

This is all without even having to attack with her and Robert doesn't provide this to anyone (selfish bastard).

However, this is only a good thing for Robert, because he has a mount and thus he has more move+Canto. This makes him far easier to reposition, so he doesn't need to be defended so abruptly. He's free to hit and run as he pleases.

Chapter 10: Not exactly one where he can proceed quickly due to Ballistae.

Chapter 11: Your start by walking through some forests and then comes a bit of good land for him to use his mount on and then it's dismounting. Thus, limited horse use.

Chapter 11x: Indoor map. Oh look now he's got 1 less MOV than Tanya.

Chapter 12: Assload of forests ahoy!

Chapter 12x: Indoors.

Chapter 13: Finally.

Chapter 14: A defense chapter, MOV's not a big deal here but I can't deny the fact that Canto's good shit.

Chapter 15 and on: Whoops... most of these there are warpskipped, how's big of an impact are his awesome growths doing when he can't get much leveling done on these unless you apply some favoritism. At this point we can drop these archers and Tanya got away with more utility than Robert.

He's also got a move star. It's not Ronan's 15% chance per turn of having a second move, but he still has one where Tanya doesn't. This will come into play at least at some points of the game.

Granted.

Robert's also got better growths while essentially having better bases outside of speed of which is good enough anyways. He will grow to be the hardest hitting bowman on the team outside of perhaps Dagdar, who's got better things to do than use bows all the time. This makes his low starting level compared to Tanya's at this point in time more of an advantage as his leveling speed will be absurd (All archers have a faster leveling speed than normal combat units, in case anyone forgot). Those great growths come into play pretty quick.

Grow you say? How much? Because as already shown, the couple chapters soon after his recruitment don't exactly allow him to exercise his mount much and with the warpskipping that's going to be done later, he's not gonna get much done.

@Bold: Which happens only if he's dismounted (buh bye advantages you had over her) while Tanya has it all the time since... she isn't mounted

Robert being a Growth unit is no good in a tier list that's hellbent on such low turn counts and warpskipping during the time where he would actually shine in comparison to Tayna.

Finally, we got Robert's holy bejesus PCC of 3, which is a whopper. To give you an idea on how good that is, if he stands next to Selphina, he's already got 46 crit packing. That's harsh, nearly every other second attack he lands is a crit, and he doesn't even have a crit weapon. This also makes him a valuable cantidate for the Odo scroll, as 1 Skill is essentially +3 crit to him. It's even nicer when it's on a range unit, as it means he doesn't have to eat a counter while he takes a shot. Even Fergus has to eat a counter before he can put that 5PCC to good use. While Tanya could use it too, it's arguably pt to better use on a mobile unit who hits harder and has Canto.

His PCC is decent and better than Tanya's but she still has 2 PCC and her pursuit crit at base with Othin support is 32 which isn't too far off from Robert's and has a good chance of closing in considering that her SKL growth is 55% and she could nab some Odo Scroll levels as well (possibly one during C8x). Never mind the fact that her support actually comes from a long term badass while his support comes from mediocre Selphina who's use is probably situational and uh... you're using Selphina AND Robert for a good number of chapters in ranked run... why? I acknowledge that there's also Glade but I hope you acknowledge that Glade doing much for Robert is simply grasping.

Not gonna bother with the rest because it's either already been answered or simply not worth responding to.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Speedwagon

[grandjackal]

4 chapters of use that isn't taking any slot from anyone and is improving...

1. Dagda's capturing. +10% hit when he can pull off 2-4 hits and +10% crit on each. Good stuff.

2. Othin's Player phase and enemy. Like Robert, he has 3 PCC so Tanya just being around means +30% crit for Othin on Pursuit so we don't have to waste Pugi on these earlygame suckers and Hand Axe won't miss as often with the +10% hit. The +10 helps in that, he's likely to get and thus less likely to have to stop to use a Vulnerary, reducing the possibilities of the RNG making you finish a turn later and such.

3. 8x. You've got 8 Bandits sitting pretty close to Dagda and Tanya and let's not forget how Duel will make most of these attack twice if Dagda happens to miss his first 2 counter-attacks (which her support helps with). Never mind that you have a couple more when the thief opens the door to Gomez.

This is all without even having to attack with her and Robert doesn't provide this to anyone (selfish bastard).

I addressed that and gave credit, as Robert really doesn't have an answer to that.

Chapter 10: Not exactly one where he can proceed quickly due to Ballistae.

Chapter 11: Your start by walking through some forests and then comes a bit of good land for him to use his mount on and then it's dismounting. Thus, limited horse use.

Chapter 11x: Indoor map. Oh look now he's got 1 less MOV than Tanya.

Chapter 12: Assload of forests ahoy!

Chapter 12x: Indoors.

Chapter 13: Finally.

Chapter 14: A defense chapter, MOV's not a big deal here but I can't deny the fact that Canto's good shit.

Chapter 15 and on: Whoops... most of these there are warpskipped, how's big of an impact are his awesome growths doing when he can't get much leveling done on these unless you apply some favoritism. At this point we can drop these archers and Tanya got away with more utility than Robert.

There are days where I just hate you.

Grow you say? How much? Because as already shown, the couple chapters soon after his recruitment don't exactly allow him to exercise his mount much and with the warpskipping that's going to be done later, he's not gonna get much done.

Rrrr....

@Bold: Which happens only if he's dismounted (buh bye advantages you had over her) while Tanya has it all the time since... she isn't mounted

RRRR!!

Robert being a Growth unit is no good in a tier list that's hellbent on such low turn counts and warpskipping during the time where he would actually shine in comparison to Tayna.

Fine, so he's worse than Tanya. Considering that Ronan isn't that far off from her performance, why's Ronan a whole tier below them both?

His PCC is decent and better than Tanya's but she still has 2 PCC and her pursuit crit at base with Othin support is 32 which isn't too far off from Robert's and has a good chance of closing in considering that her SKL growth is 55% and she could nab some Odo Scroll levels as well (possibly one during C8x). Never mind the fact that her support actually comes from a long term badass while his support comes from mediocre Selphina who's use is probably situational and uh... you're using Selphina AND Robert for a good number of chapters in ranked run... why? I acknowledge that there's also Glade but I hope you acknowledge that Glade doing much for Robert is simply grasping.

Fine, so Robert is questionable. Selphina on hte other hand is not, as she takes no effort to have B rank, has a mount, Duel, Brave Bow, can promote quite quickly for an offense boost, etc.. While the immediate chapters ensure that her move isn't big, there are still times where canto is a boon, and losing 1 move isn't necessarily the end of the world for some of these chapters. At least she has an excuse with her weapon rank.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Fine, so he's worse than Tanya. Considering that Ronan isn't that far off from her performance, why's Ronan a whole tier below them both?

Likely the 2 tier lists mostly being based off the one Mekkah managed so IOS hasn't gotten around to that yet.

Fine, so Robert is questionable. Selphina on hte other hand is not, as she takes no effort to have B rank, has a mount, Duel, Brave Bow, can promote quite quickly for an offense boost, etc.. While the immediate chapters ensure that her move isn't big, there are still times where canto is a boon, and losing 1 move isn't necessarily the end of the world for some of these chapters. At least she has an excuse with her weapon rank.

Yeah pretty much why I didn't bother arguing against her. Probably the best Archer for Chapter 14 so long as you keep her out of Ballistae range (yay canto).

Edited April 24, 2010 by Speedwagon

[Rodykitty]

@Illyana, if Ronan's getting ditched at level 10, what makes Tanya any different?

Not everything I say has to be in support of a character.

[Aquilae]

Promoting Dalshin is a horrible idea. You already get very few Knight's Proofs to begin with, and your staff users have priority. Dalshin's combat doesn't get any significant boost, and his movement still sucks. All the characters above him don't cost a Knight's Proof and have decent combat and utility during the chapters they are in, while Dalshin slows down the team due to 5 / 6 Mov and can't be picked up and dropped easily.

I think Fred could rise above Dalshin. He has good Mov and acceptable bases and growths, and can function well as a filler in outdoor chapters. He has an A Rank in Swords, which allows him to use the Hero Sword and Shiva's Killing Edge. He beats out Dalshin in mobility and offense, as he has better Mov than Dalshin even in indoor chapters and doubles more often as well.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Aquilae

[Salad Utensil]

Good replacement units and other units who don't need crests to be good also exist, and by lategame we're just going to be warp-haxing by warping like the one guy we trained up to do half this shit. You have plenty to spare in the time beforehand.

Now let's see how much this helps.

This is what rescue chains are for. There is a vast emptiness of enemies knowing you're even around at the start, you can get by in the time it takes for Karin to gather all the good and fly off the other escape route. I have done this before, quite simple

Luckily, you can get a knight's proof just at the start by having Karin fly over to get it. This gives him 6 move, so now he's less of a problem to get to the fort, as now he can walk by himself for the most part. He also gets lances to fight those mercenaries, working WTA for the defensive bonus. He has 16 Def and 31 HP, 5 AS on average at least. The Silver Sword is 14 might, even if they do double, at worst they'd do what, 5x2 damage? Kill swords are 9 might. Legitimate worry that can be eliminated by letting Dalshin hold a scroll. All that's left is the iron swordie who dings and the claymore dude who does probably 3x2 damage. On the other end of this is a dude wielding most likely a Short Lance, packing 19-20 might. To give you an idea on how strong that is, the strongest sword you have is Steel. Fergus needs to be level 18 to pull that off, or 6 levels to do that with the weighty inaccurate Iron Claymore. That's 2 might less than Brighton with his steel axe.

Even if we weren't killing the boss to halt reinforcements, the Rapier is 4 might. Let's say hte cav has 8 Str. That's only 8 damage to Dalshin, 4RKO so he can survive 3 if they canto rush him. Suck down a vulnery, keep moving forward.

Fair enough.

Now he's got bows, so he can chip accurately at those hammers (probably doubling as well, as bandits are slow as shit and hammers are heavy, doing so with 19-22 might depending if it's a short bow or iron). He can now shoot over walls at the archers to make the rooms safe to go into, laughing off the poison damage and generally everything else with his lol 16 Def.

Everyone else only has 6 move in this place (save Ronan and Dagdar, Dagdar of which is a bit pre-occupied at the moment), he's not slowing us down a bit. If anything, he's making this map that much safer.

Who's more perfect for distracting the dragon knights? They fly north at the mountains first. He heads south, he'll be ready to intercept them. He doesn't have to distract them all, but the main party would enjoy only having to deal with 3 rather than 5. Karin's going south anyways, there's a village she has to get and a bishop she has to capture. Dalshin rolls over the mountains, helps take care of the armors, Karin helps him fly to the fort from there.

Of which are also armors, Dalshien can also pick up the hammer ya know.

Only exception is the armorslayer cav, of which he has a bow for. Olwen's moot, everyone's scared shitless of her.

Now he's got 6 move, making him no better off than most, and is especially helpful for when the ballista show up as he can rescue whoever's around and hide them inside his iron body.

Speaking of which, most of those enemies down that 1 path corridor are armors. Dalshien has 15 Str and a hammer, giving him 54 effective might. I'd have a hard time believing an armor can survive that.

Now with normal movement, an accurate counter with bows, and can double with his 5 AS versus their magic weighed down AS.

So he'll need holy water. Who wouldn't here?

He's had a busy few days, he might be fatigued anyways.

Everyone hates this chapter, irrelevent, I'd want to warp-skip anyways.

He's not a mount here, but he can still rescue people and move through ballista without fear.

If I recall, they're all in the south invasion, meaning they don't last long. Furthermore, he can hammer back, and now has bows to fight off the Thracian dragon knights.

This place sucks for him regardless, I'll give you this one.

Not that this chapter should take long with those three helping us out with said villages.

16 A, perfect long range fodder for the ballista and can act as a savior by rescuing someone to distract Eyrios, keeping him close with his Thunderstorm while Karin comes in for the recruit. Also, Pole-Axe.

Fly him to the right, plant him to distract the armors. He's tough stuff, has the hammer, can potentially flatten them before Cyrus shows up, giving you a clean pathway to the throne. Even if Cyrus DOES show up, he's too tough to give a damn, he can still act as a distraction.

Watch as he pulls away the Freege knights with the hand axes from the ridge below with his bow...

From there.

Chapter 19: Fatigued

Chapter 20: Hammertime on the armors, making getting to the boss before the long range shows up quite simple. When the ballistas do show up, he can rescue the squishier guys to protect them as he runs back.

From there, we're probably warpskipping anyways because that's when I'm allowed to stop giving a fuck.

I'm not even going to respond to those individual quote since your strategies sound like they are both inefficient and that you are purposely ignoring Dalshien's short comings by playing inefficiently and making your other characters less efficient/effective.

Seriously look at the SSS videos on youtube. I don't know how you are playing the game, but your hypothetical situations are full of factual holes. For example in chapter 9 are you seriously going to send Dalshien down with his 6 move self that you favored to hell taking a promotion away from Asvel or Safy or Brighton or Fergus or Fin or Carrion or Machua or Shiva? And you are seriously going to have Karin rescue Dalshien causing her to cut her move in half? Do you expect to take like 30 turns in that map? Not only did you just deploy a low move unit to an outdoor map, you also are making Karin carry him so your other units are stuck trudging through the forests. Asvel with Grafcalibur can 1HKO all dragon knights in that map, yet you are seriously considering letting Dalshien rather than Asvel get rescued by Karin?

Your chapter 6 strategy is very inefficient because you are getting Karin to visit the house. Waste a turn going back to Dalshien to trade. Dalshien wastes a turn promoting so he is invincible in the face of the enemies that if you were playing correctly he will never meet because you should have escaped. But wait, due to Dalshien's 17 con everyone who carries him will have 4 movement too. Yay, you just wasted another 3 turns rescue chaining him to the exit. Now at this point Karin after heading backwards misses out on the opportunity to sneak past the army of mages/armor knights to visit the west villages for the elite manuel and odo scroll. Rescue chaining excuse so Dalshien can escape seems like you just wasted everyone's turn so he doesn't get owned by El fire mages.

Also please actually check you info once in a while, Armors CAN NOT MOVE OVER MOUNTAINS so he isn't going to just roll over them(refering to chapter 9).

Unrelated, but is Eyval really saving you more turns than Sety? I think she should move to lower mid due to her availability. Even if she is great early game, it doesn't say much considering the first few chapters are by far the easiest. Its not like she's FE6 Marcus who is practically required in order to finish chapter 1 in HM

Edited April 24, 2010 by Brighton

[Aquilae]

I agree with Sety > Eyvel. Eyvel can kill the C1-3 bosses easily, but Dagda can do that as well, albeit with lower accuracy, so she's only saving about 1-2 turns per chapter (she has higher Mov than Dagda). The generic enemies are easy to handle, and Othin / Halvan / Fin can handle them just fine. Sety is invaluable in 24, 24x and Final, because he has much better combat and durability than the other A Rank Staff users (Salem, Sara, Saphy, Linoan), and saves a lot of turns with Rewarp in 24 and 24x. Furthermore, Sety is the only person besides Galzus who can take a room to himself, freeing your other units to help out in other rooms. He also can kill Berdo reliably, which also saves turns as Leaf can be directly Warped to the throne afterward.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Aquilae

[Don Draper]

Fair enough. Eyvel does cut down on turns earlygame, but doesn't have the reliability of Sety during 24/24x/Final.

Making the change. I'm also going to be switching the requirements of Chapter 1-2 to 4 turns each, as the strategy is easy to pull off and likely worth it in the end run for making later game more flexible.

I made videos outlining the strategy for 4 turning Chapters 1 and 2, 8 turning Chapter 2x and 6 turning Chapter 3. Low turn strategies for the rest of the earlygame chapters will follow shortly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZrHRv2PyYg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93y9BkFfHXA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTzzorjH4Pg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcfYcvHHFkg

Edited April 26, 2010 by Ari Gold

[Salad Utensil]

Fair enough. Eyvel does cut down on turns earlygame, but doesn't have the reliability of Sety during 24/24x/Final.

Making the change. I'm also going to be switching the requirements of Chapter 1-2 to 4 turns each, as the strategy is easy to pull off and likely worth it in the end run for making later game more flexible.

I made videos outlining the strategy for 4 turning Chapters 1 and 2, 8 turning Chapter 2x and 6 turning Chapter 3. Low turn strategies for the rest of the earlygame chapters will follow shortly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZrHRv2PyYg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93y9BkFfHXA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTzzorjH4Pg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcfYcvHHFkg

Your chapter 1 strategy seems strange that you had Fin rescue Leaf the 1st turn rather than releasing him. Also you used the iron blade rather than the fire sword to kill the first soldier which led to enemies blocking your path. An alternative path Fin could have taken could be is moving northward and kill the boss with the brave lance (he has around 20 crit and gets to hit 4 times).

Your video description for chapter 3 where you had Safy reach B staves in the 1st turn probably was necessary since you are not playing elite mode and thus have almost no chance to get Safy to reach level 10 by chapter 8X. However, you can still have her reach A staves early if you have her use the repair staff 5 more times, in which case you have an extra knight proof you can use for someone else. Good job so far, but realize that bringing the brave axe means a character is forced to waste an extra turn getting the axe in chapter 4.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Brighton

[Don Draper]

Your chapter 1 strategy seems strange that you had Fin rescue Leaf the 1st turn rather than releasing him. Also you used the iron blade rather than the fire sword to kill the first soldier which led to enemies blocking your path. An alternative path Fin could have taken could be is moving northward and kill the boss with the brave lance (he has around 20 crit and gets to hit 4 times).

The only problem with that is that I wouldn't the important houses that way. If Fin was rushing to the throne, then I need somebody to take care of the Brave Axe house soldier and somebody to enter the top left house for the Life Ring. Eyvel is the only one who can reach the Brave Axe house soldier in a soon enough time with reliable 2-range. If Eyvel was off doing that, then nobody would be able to enter the top left village. Plus, Eyvel is more reliable against the boss of Chapter 1. He often has around 11 Def, meaning Fin can't scratch him without a critical.

Your video description for chapter 3 where you had Safy reach B staves in the 1st turn probably was necessary since you are not playing elite mode and thus have almost no chance to get Safy to reach level 10 by chapter 8X. However, you can still have her reach A staves early if you have her use the repair staff 5 more times, in which case you have an extra knight proof you can use for someone else. Good job so far, but realize that bringing the brave axe means a character is forced to waste an extra turn getting the axe in chapter 4.

If I rig a miss every chapter she's available in up until now, that gives me

Chapter 7

Chapter 8

Chapter 8x

(probably fatigued)

Chapter 10

Chapter 11

If I want to 3 turn Chapter 10, then I'll probably have to use a Knights Proof anyways. Rigging more then one miss per chapter is too tedious, and I kind of want to remove as much luck as possible in this run.

Thanks for the suggestions, and I think I can still 13 turn Chapter 4 even with the Brave Axe as long as I trade the Chest Key around. I'll see how it goes.

[Salad Utensil]

The only problem with that is that I wouldn't the important houses that way. If Fin was rushing to the throne, then I need somebody to take care of the Brave Axe house soldier and somebody to enter the top left house for the Life Ring. Eyvel is the only one who can reach the Brave Axe house soldier in a soon enough time with reliable 2-range. If Eyvel was off doing that, then nobody would be able to enter the top left village. Plus, Eyvel is more reliable against the boss of Chapter 1. He often has around 11 Def, meaning Fin can't scratch him without a critical.

Hmm... I suppose you are right there about Eyval, but I was confused why you didn't move Leaf first, Halvan rescue, Fin takes, Eyvel equiping the fire sword takes and drops the first turn so you can could counter all the enemies and prevent enemies from getting in the way and leaf gets to attack again. I never completed it in 4 turns before though. I was able to not use Eyvel's combat at all and got 6 turns though. Chapter 2 is probably impossible without Eyvel to kill the boss unless you get Fin to critical the boss twice (which is doable) or Othin to wrath kill the boss with brave once he reaches D axes, which will probably be 10 turns in anyway. 2X is viable without using Eyval except rescue chaining for 10 turns. Chapter 3 is uncertain for me since I alway have to get all the items, but I've done it without using Eyval except for support and rescue chaining and ended up with all items for 13 turns so maybe subtract 3-4 turns and that'll give you an accurate value for how many turns Eyval saves early game. Unsure about how much she should be worth in her chapter 5 performance though otherwise Nanna is dead if she wasn't there.

If I rig a miss every chapter she's available in up until now, that gives me

Chapter 7

Chapter 8

Chapter 8x

(probably fatigued)

Chapter 10

Chapter 11

If I want to 3 turn Chapter 10, then I'll probably have to use a Knights Proof anyways. Rigging more then one miss per chapter is too tedious, and I kind of want to remove as much luck as possible in this run.

Thanks for the suggestions, and I think I can still 13 turn Chapter 4 even with the Brave Axe as long as I trade the Chest Key around. I'll see how it goes.

You can probably got a few heals in chapter 3, you can get more in chapter 7 and you probably can get up to 10 more uses of Libro easily while in Manster since you are going to 4X and 5. So if you heal 8 times (by chapter 8), rig 3 more times (by chapter 8X) and use 4 uses of physic (8x) you should be in good shape.

If you plan on the knight proof method, good luck I say getting Safy to level 10 in time, I guess its possible if you give her the elite manuel, since rigging repair yields 60 exp and physic gives 50 exp.

Though blowing through all 10 uses of physic only nets 5 levels and rigging 3 times gets you 1.8 levels and add in spare heals and I'd say you are better off just rigging 3 more repairs (or use it on the light sword for realz) along with 4 more physic and 8 uses of heal which you might almost have already. At least you can save that proof for another unit and elite scroll lets you train another competent fighter since EXP will be rare.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Brighton

[Colonel M]

Sorry to bump, though I have limited knowledge of the game, I do have some questions to bring up.

Amalda

Tanya

Delmud

Xavier

Glade

Dalshien

Fred

Misha

Eda

Ralph

Robert

Trewd

Selphina

This is Low Mid atm. Now, I assume you're still running this IOS (despite sort of not doing your run through), but regardless I'd question some of the placements. Xavier should probably drop, but Robert > Selphina (and Selphina that low for that matter) seems rather odd. Glade is a minor addition, but he gets major help from Selphina too. Dalshien helps in Manster chapters. Those are the only characters I really know at the moment, so I apologize. I just don't feel that Xavier is that far above those units that can be very useful. One is semi-clutch (Dalshien) while the other (Selphina and I guess Glade) have uses.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Colonel M