Why is Grima sentient and Evil *Spoilers*

[Emperor Hardin]

I really need to ask why yet another Earth Dragon managed to avoid degeneration and cause the apocalypse. Per the backstory in Mystery of the Emblem, the original Earth Dragons while prideful were not innately evil. It was only until the Earth Dragons lost their sentience and degenerated that they became a completely hostile threat to humanity.

Medeus was supposed to be the only surviving Earth Dragon who sided with Naga only to later regret it and form Dolhr due to anger over the human nations oppressing Manaketes. Lopostou was a ghost from a past Dragon war before Earth Dragons degenerated which explains him.

But where did Grima come from, whats his deal? And is Tearring Saga the only place where Earth Dragons can not be villains?

Edited February 26, 2013 by Emperor Hardin

[Nayr Farros]

To be honest, Grima looked more like a demon dragon than an Earth dragon. Unlike Grima, Medeus was mortal, he could be killed. Grima can only be killed by his own hand. And Grima looks like he could eat Medeus for lunch.

Also I'm assuming that Grima came into existence at some point after FE1, FE2, and FE3, which is nearly 2000 years before Awakening's events.

Or maybe Grima always existed, and the events with Medeus happened in between his awakenings.

[Acacia Sgt]

Well, if I remember correctly, according to the Knights of Iris artbook, Grima is mentioned to be a descendant of the Earth Dragons. Personally, I don't know what this could mean exactly.

To be honest, Grima looked more like a demon dragon than an Earth dragon. Unlike Grima, Medeus was mortal, he could be killed. Grima can only be killed by his own hand. And Grima looks like he could eat Medeus for lunch.

Also I'm assuming that Grima came into existence at some point after FE1, FE2, and FE3, which is nearly 2000 years before Awakening's events.

Or maybe Grima always existed, and the events with Medeus happened in between his awakenings.

Not quite. Grima's first attempt to take over happened only 1000 years before Awakening's events. Said first attempt also happened about 1000 years after Medeus's attempts.

[Retsudo]

The game never explains that much about Grima.

[VincentASM]

Is Grima really immortal though? I'm pretty sure Naga said both Grima and her weren't gods, just really powerful beings or something.

Medeus also didn't really die. Anri and Marth both beat him once, but he still managed to resurrect as a Shadow Dragon in FE3/12--and even at the end of that game, he says he (or does he just mean his brethren?) can still come back.

This is just a theory, but Grima could be the fusion of the Earth Dragons sealed within the Dragon's Table. That could explain its double wings, immense size/power and gained sentience.

Edited February 26, 2013 by VincentASM

[Emperor Hardin]

Is Grima really immortal though? I'm pretty sure Naga said both Grima and her weren't gods, just really powerful beings or something.

Medeus also didn't really die. Anri and Marth both beat him once, but he still managed to resurrect as a Shadow Dragon in FE3/12--and even at the end of that game, he says he (or does he just mean his brethren?) can still come back.

In the translation of book 2, Medeus refers to himself and his brethren. I don't get why Awakening just didn't use Medeus or Loptous if they wanted an evil Earth Dragon?

This is just a theory, but Grima could be the fusion of the Earth Dragons sealed within the Dragon's Table. That could explain its double wings, immense size/power and gained sentience.

It seems strange that Non-Sentient+Non-Sentient=Sentient, but it could work.

[VincentASM]

In the translation of book 2, Medeus refers to himself and his brethren. I don't get why Awakening just didn't use Medeus or Loptous if they wanted an evil Earth Dragon?

Grima is clearly more dangerous than Medeus or Loputousu. Naga was able to stop both (potentially) in earlier history, so they weren't really viable opponents for her. Or maybe they just wanted a new enemy.

Also, something I missed.

It's possible the Earth Dragons hated humanity to begin with and that was further reason for them to go on a rampage when they went crazy.

The Divine Dragon King, Narga, suggested to the other dragon tribes the idea of passing on the new age to the humans. However, the Earth Dragon tribe, who considered humans to be common insects, openly opposed the Dragon King's decision and launched an attack with the aim to exterminate the humans.

Grima could just be willingly following their ideals.

[BlueLeafeon]

His backstory doesn't make sense

What backstory? ._.;;

[Agro]

It wouldn't surprise me if Grima was a fusion of the remaining Earth Dragons who were sealed away, but I wish they could have expanded on the history of the continent a little bit more.

[Retsudo]

Grima is clearly more dangerous than Medeus or Loputousu. Naga was able to stop both (potentially) in earlier history, so they weren't really viable opponents for her. Or maybe they just wanted a new enemy.

So how did Grima get so strong then? Compared to Medeus and Loptous.

[Nayr Farros]

Not quite. Grima's first attempt to take over happened only 1000 years before Awakening's events. Said first attempt also happened about 1000 years after Medeus's attempts.

That's what I said. Awakening is *2000* years after FE1/2/3 and Grima probably came into existence after those events(1000 years is after.)

Also playing the Xenologues taught me something. The FE Shadow Dragon and New Mystery stories apparently are alternate universes of the original FE1 and FE3.(Evidence: Hubba's explaination to Chrom's question as to why Marth looks different in the second Champions of Yore.)

So, maybe Awakening is an alternate universe from FE1/2/3 and Shadow Dragon/New Mystery. Perhaps in this reality, Grima was the big bad, not Medeus and his ilk.

Wild Theory: Or, hell, maybe Medeus was tired of always getting his ass kicked by blue haired bishies and merged with all of his ilk and became Grima. And Gharnef is the founder of the Grimleal and Validar's ancestor. :p

Wild Theory 2: Maybe Grima is the bastard child of Shadow Dragon Medeus and Yu-Gi-Oh! card Uria. Note the likeness. http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm298/10nayr/uria_zps92c1da55.png

Edited February 27, 2013 by Nayr Farros

[Acacia Sgt]

That's what I said. Awakening is *2000* years after FE1/2/3 and Grima probably came into existence after those events(1000 years is after.)

Also playing the Xenologues taught me something. The FE Shadow Dragon and New Mystery stories apparently are alternate universes of the original FE1 and FE3.(Evidence: Hubba's explaination to Chrom's question as to why Marth looks different in the second Champions of Yore.)

So, maybe Awakening is an alternate universe from FE1/2/3 and Shadow Dragon/New Mystery. Perhaps in this reality, Grima was the big bad, not Medeus and his ilk.

Wild Theory: Or, hell, maybe Medeus was tired of always getting his ass kicked by blue haired bishies and merged with all of his ilk and became Grima. And Gharnef is the founder of the Grimleal and Validar's ancestor. :p

Well, didn't your post mentioned Medeus's events happening in-between Grima's awakenings? Or you meant another thing with those and/or order of words?

Even if it were another universe from the ones we see on the NES/SNES/DS games, the events of it must still have happened regardless due to Chrom's family living in what once was Archanea, which is where Marth ended ruling at the end of Mystery/NewMystery. Unless you say it was Grima and not Medeus who established Dohluna, invaded Archanea, etc.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Acacia Sgt

[BlueLeafeon]

So how did Grima get so strong then? Compared to Medeus and Loptous.

THE WORLD MAY NEVER KNOW.

</tootsipopcommercial>

okay I'll stop now.

I agree they needed more backstory. We need a prequel >>

[Nayr Farros]

Well, didn't your post mentioned Medeus's events happening in-between Grima's awakenings? Or you meant another thing with those and/or order of words?

Even if it were another universe from the ones we see on the NES/SNES/DS games, the events of it must still have happened regardless due to Chrom's family living in what once was Archanea, which is where Marth ended ruling at the end of Mystery/NewMystery. Unless you say it was Grima and not Medeus who established Dohluna, invaded Archanea, etc.

That was one possibility. Speculative. Separate points.

Also we don't know if the whole Dholna/Archanea stuff happened at all like it happened in those continuities. How Marth ended up as a Hero King is never explicitly stated in Awakening. In fact, nothing besides the name and a few small details is really mentioned.

How the continent of Archanea ended up reformed as much as it was is credited to Grima's previous uprising. All the old nations were wrecked to hell and new countries were formed afterward. Marth's descendant, the first Exalt, could have just settled on the lands that were once Archanea. Or Marth could have become the king of Archanea in a different manner.

[Acacia Sgt]

That was one possibility. Speculative. Separate points.

Also we don't know if the whole Dholna/Archanea stuff happened at all like it happened in those continuities. How Marth ended up as a Hero King is never explicitly stated in Awakening. In fact, nothing besides the name and a few small details is really mentioned.

How the continent of Archanea ended up reformed as much as it was is credited to Grima's previous uprising. All the old nations were wrecked to hell and new countries were formed afterward. Marth's descendant, the first Exalt, could have just settled on the lands that were once Archanea. Or Marth could have become the king of Archanea in a different manner.

Well, Tiki knowing Marth and what he did kinda proves the events did happened. Otherwise what other circumstances may have had those two ever meeting? Tiki had been sleeping at the Fane of Raman, and Marth only went there under orders from Gotoh to gather the Orbs needed to craft Starlight in order to harm Gharnef.

[Nayr Farros]

Well, Tiki knowing Marth and what he did kinda proves the events did happened. Otherwise what other circumstances may have had those two ever meeting? Tiki had been sleeping at the Fane of Raman, and Marth only went there under orders from Gotoh to gather the Orbs needed to craft Starlight in order to harm Gharnef.

Yeah, Gharnef, not Medeus.

Gharnef was his own bad self apart from Medeus, and he's the one who manipulated Tiki.

[Acacia Sgt]

Yeah, Gharnef, not Medeus.

Gharnef was his own bad self apart from Medeus, and he's the one who manipulated Tiki.

Even so, Gharnef was under Medeus's orders. Gharnef wasn't actually an evil person once, but he betrayed Gotoh for Medeus once the latter appeared. He was after all the one who guarded the Falchion under orders from Medeus.

[Otherarrow]

Even so, Gharnef was under Medeus's orders. Gharnef wasn't actually an evil person once, but he betrayed Gotoh for Medeus once the latter appeared. He was after all the one who guarded the Falchion under orders from Medeus.

Actually, Gharnef betrayed Gotoh before Medeus appeared, and is the one who revived Medeus in the first place. Also, if I recall correctly, Gharnef had the Falchion not because he was guarding it, but because he planned to use it against Medeus after the two conquered the world. I wouldn't be surprised if his manipulation of Tiki was part of his plan to dispose of Medeus once the Earth Dragon stopped being useful.

I forgot what point I was making.

Anywho, Grima. I like the "Earth Dragon merger" idea. Eh.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Otherarrow

[Nayr Farros]

Another possibility: Grima was the one behind the Earth dragons. Medeus and the like.

Grima is revered by Grimleal as an evil dragon god, on par with Naga herself. Medeus didn't have that renown. He was bad, yeah, but Anri and Marth brought him down pretty easily in comparison. Grima required terminator level time travel to stop.

Grima could be to the Earth dragons what Naga is to the rest of the dragonkin.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Nayr Farros

[Retsudo]

So Grima is Fire Emblem's answer to Exdeath?

If Grima really did come from a Earth Dragon merge.

[Acacia Sgt]

Actually, Gharnef betrayed Gotoh before Medeus appeared, and is the one who revived Medeus in the first place. Also, if I recall correctly, Gharnef had the Falchion not because he was guarding it, but because he planned to use it against Medeus after the two conquered the world. I wouldn't be surprised if his manipulation of Tiki was part of his plan to dispose of Medeus once the Earth Dragon stopped being useful.

I forgot what point I was making.

Anywho, Grima. I like the "Earth Dragon merger" idea. Eh.

I doubt Gharnef had that in mind, considering he had to be aware Falchion could only be wielded by Anri's bloodline.

By the way, where is this stated?

[Melonhead]

My theory always was he is a counterpart to Naga, and just wasn't around/was between attacks or awakenings during Marth's time. Still, we need a prequel.

Also, here is an interesting theory: If Tiki or Chrom killed Naga, would she be gone forever?

[Otherarrow]

I doubt Gharnef had that in mind, considering he had to be aware Falchion could only be wielded by Anri's bloodline.

By the way, where is this stated?

The Falchion thing? Let's see...

Ah, here we go. Shadow Dragon, Chapter 15.

Gotoh:

Some have used that name, yes. You must listen to me. As you suspect, Gharnef has made off with Falchion. With Imhullu and Falchion in the sorcerer's grasp, Doluna now must think twice before challenging him. Gharnef knows this. And one day, he plans to conquer Doluna and rule the entire world.

So yeah. Not only was Gharnef planning on using Imhullu and the Falchion to double cross Doluna, it is apparently a open secret.

As for the Anri's bloodline thing, Anri doesn't have a bloodline. He had no kids. Marth is descended from Anri's brother. Nitpicking aside, it is possible that Gharnef was planning to somehow use Elice.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Otherarrow

[Acacia Sgt]

The Falchion thing? Let's see...

Ah, here we go. Shadow Dragon, Chapter 15.

So yeah. Not only was Gharnef planning on using Imhullu and the Falchion to double cross Doluna, it is apparently a open secret.

As for the Anri's bloodline thing, Anri doesn't have a bloodline. He had no kids. Marth is descended from Anri's brother. Nitpicking aside, it is possible that Gharnef was planning to somehow use Elice.

Interesting. Well, in-game they do use stuff like "Anri's bloodline" and "Anri's descendant" despite Marth not being exactly a member of both. As for Elice, Chapter 23 she herself states Gharnef only wanted her because she can use the Aum Staff.

Elice:

I was prepared for the worst, if that was what it took to ensure your safety. But they did not kill me. Gharnef spared my life.

Marth:

Why would he spare you?

Elice:

Marth, have you heard of the staff of Aum?

Marth:

The staff that brings back the dead? It was lost to the world long ago, or so the legend goes.

Elice:

Yes, but Gharnef found it...in the Resurrectory.

Marth:

The Resurrectory? What was it doing in a temple in the middle of Doluna?

Elice:

I could not say. But that was why Gharnef kept me alive: he wished me to wield it. The staff of Aum's power can only be channeled by women of royal blood. Marth, you are going to Doluna, are you not?

[Emperor Hardin]

Interesting. Well, in-game they do use stuff like "Anri's bloodline" and "Anri's descendant" despite Marth not being exactly a member of both. As for Elice, Chapter 23 she herself states Gharnef only wanted her because she can use the Aum Staff.

My crazy theory was that Gharnef wanted to create an Anri he could control