CRASHX500 Asks: Have Awakening & Fates Ruined Fire Emblem?(Do not make bad assumptions based on the title, please)

[Busterman64]

PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEO FIRST BEFORE MAKING ASSUMPTIONS, PLEASE AND THANK YOU!

So one of the channels on YouTube I subscribed to, CRASHX500, talked what Awakening and Fates did for the FE series...for better or worse, and I'd thought that he had some good points in the video that I wanted others to hear! You may not agree with(or maybe even like) everything he says, but hey, this is mainly his opinion on the matter(and it's nice to hear others opinions......when they actually have valid/understandable points)! Anyway, I hope you enjoy it!

[Nym]

There's not much to said actually, pretty much what he said is also what we end out debating about.

[Dinar87]

1) Where's his proof that "a big number of fans DESPISE these games"? Maybe they don't think they're 100% perfect but I've personally not seen a single person (besides the Gamefaqs troll known as Endgame) say even "these are terrible games".
2) It's good that he states it's only his opinion. Unlike certain other "reviewers" COUGH Egoraptor COUUUUUGGGGHHH.
3) I agree that phoenix mode isn't really much of an issue as it's entirely optional.
4) I agree that fan service ruins the serious tone they're trying to go for in fates AND awakening.
5) COMPLETELY disagree that "the characters are good". While some may have back stories or whatever, many of them feel like massively walking tropes. Odin is just a catch phrase man (so is Arthur plus bad luck). Pierre is just bloodthirsty. Oboro is fashion gurl+nohrian h8t0r with a bit of back story. Severa is a tsundere (I think that's how you spell it). Inigo is a womanizer. Etc, etc, etc...
6) I agree that the villains of newer FE games are dogshit.
7)Doesn't go into detail about the apparent flaws of previous games.
8)Change isn't always a bad thing...though it isn't always a good thing either
9)Overall, I agree that the series isn't "ruined" because of these games they could be much, much, MUCH better. I highly doubt will ever see anything as great as the Tellius series again and that depresses me immensely.

[Etrurian emperor]

I've been following the guy for a while now and am very interested in what Crash has to say ....buuuuut i'm in a country with no YouTube so I'll have to wait a bit before I can contribute.

But I can say that the new style didn't ruin Fire Emblem, if anything it ensured the series still exist. The complaints about the new games need not be permanent either. The way I see it FE is in an experimental phase and there is no reason to assume there won't be any improvement to come. Fates was an improvement over Awakening and the successor of Fates will likely look at what worked and what didn't .

Edited August 4, 2016 by Etrurian emperor

[Moblin Major General]

His pronunciation of tsundere really bothers me. Not to mention in one of his earlier videos, he mispronounced Kaze. Other than that, he has valid points. If Fates and Awakening added the pre-chapter narratives, the story could've been more developed.

[Magical Glace]

1) Haven't played Fates but have watched LP's, and I despise FE13 and the carry-overs from it. Fates does fix some things, the game isn't pair-up to win anymore, but it retains a lot of problems and makes some worse.

2) Mokou mode is a stupid idea, but I respect the Normal-only nature of it. Really, it's fine that it's optional, though I'm against refusal to graduate from Mokou and Casual. If that makes any sense at all.

3) The characters in Awakening are largely lame. What I've seen of the ones in Fates is similar. In addition, Corrin is actually painful for me to watch, with characters praising him/her for no reason left and right and generally being the biggest idiot of any lord in the series then never growing out of it. It's insulting.

4) Validar was trash, Grima was worse, and Slime-Garon was stupid.

5) Past games had their flaws, I will admit that. Heck, even FE6, my favorite entry, has flaws I acknowledge and dislike. However, they also had redeeming qualities that minimized the flaws. Awakening didn't have these... at all. Fates has some from what I've seen (read: certain maps in Conquest).

6) Whether change is good or bad depends on the change and a person's opinion... Me? Well, if the rest of this post wasn't any indication, I'm not really a fan of this one overall. Whatever.

7) Overall... Awakening was a bad game. The series is on a downward spiral writing quality wise. Gameplay-wise... Awakening's was horrid, but Fates stepped up some improvements, though some changes (magic and bows in the weapon triangle for example) are stupid (Though Magic could work if instead of adding bows/shurikens they used three separate types of magic and laid it over the weapon one, swords+light > axe+dark > lance+anima, for example). So yes and depends.

[Enaluxeme]

I can't watch viedos because of bad connection. What I can say is that they haven't "ruined" fire emblem, but they changed it in a way veterans may not like.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I'd say that only FE13 was on the best way to ruin this series.
This game should introduce new people into this series by simplifying the game mechanics dramatically at cost of the veterans.

FE14 tried to fix the mistakes in FE13 by improving the pair up and bringing back old mechanics from older parts.

FE14 approaches all player types.
Birthright is similar to Awakening for newcomers while Conquest for the veterans.


I think it was a fair deal.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Ayama Wirdo

[Rend Keaven]

I think if Intelligent Systems acknowledges the praise that Conquest received over Birthright and Revelations in terms of challenge and welcoming to veterans and Awakening players, then they will know that it won't hurt to go back to the series original style. Also while Crash is a nice person and made good points in this video, keep in mind that this is the same guy who said dancers are one of the worst classes, Azura is the best character in Fates and Revelations had the best level design out of the 3 pathways without very good explanations.

[Valkarian]

The story of the games as well as the character saw a massive nosedive with the introduction of the new Fire Emblem games, as well as the introduction of new elements that distract from the strategic nature of the game. Fan Service is as abundant as ever, though infinitely less subtle. The villains of the new games lost any form of Moral Ambiguity. And the characters seem less Human and more Anime. The lords of Awakening had their thunder completely stole from by the Avatar, and with Mary Sue Corrin, every character around him can only be described as a Corrin-Sexual.

Gameplay in the new games is meh, with the exception of Conquest, which sported some of the best enemy placement and intricately created maps. Dragon Veins are kinda lame but there is a lot of potential here. I also love how the newer games were able to make some of lamest classes in the FE series much better. Knights actually were useful due to the smaller maps and the enemies do a truck load of damage, which meant their high defense actually counted for something. And because of the fact that enemies do more damage, everyone will have a shitty enemy phase, which means the archers main weakness is now everyone's weakness. And considering 1-2 range weapons have been nerfed considerably, this means bows are actually pretty good weapons. Still pairing up is still kinda too good considering enemies can now perform dual strike, and the only way to survive two consecutive hits in the enemy phase is to use Dual guard. So they should probably remove Dual guard entirely and just only have Dual Strike.

So gameplay wise, I'd say conquest is pretty solid and is on par with Radiant Dawn, FE 12 (imo). Though the story in the new games kinda suck. The series is definitely not ruined, though is it just ended with Awakening, I'd say it would have been pretty grim. Still the future of Fire Emblem doesn't look as promising as we won't get games like FE 4 or FE 5 anymore which kinda sucks.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Valkarian

[The DanMan]

My main problem is that he comes off as somebody who- while having done his research -hasn't discussed things with members of the actual fandom. Most obvious being his usage of the "it saved the series argument", when there's a whole other argument over "saving", with some going as far as to say that they'd rather have had the series end than continue as it is now. He also briefly brought TMS into things, which is a whole other can of worms.

Overall, while I disagree on various points, I like the video; it's nice to see somebody outside of this forum actually criticizing the newer games and not just raise hell over the localization.

Edited August 4, 2016 by The DanMan

[Dinar87]

My main problem is that he comes off as somebody who- while having done his research -hasn't discussed things with members of the actual fandom. Most obvious being his usage of the "it saved the series argument", when there's a whole other argument over "saving", with some going as far as to say that they'd rather have had the series end than continue as it is now. He also briefly brought TMS into things, which is a whole other can of worms.

Overall, while I disagree on various points, I like the video; it's nice to see somebody outside of this forum actually criticizing the newer games and not just raise hell over the localization.

I can't bloody stand the "b-b-but it saved teh series" argument that fanboys use to excuse poor quality. No one has to be grateful for anything! Let people criticize what they want without passive-aggressively reminding them of that fact.

If I hear that argument being used ONE MORE TIME!!!

*aims loaded shotgun at head*

I'LL COMMIT SUDOKU!!

Edited August 4, 2016 by Dinar87

[Alertcircuit]

Although FE13 isn't that great, I think FE14 definitely does the series justice.

[Busterman64]

5) COMPLETELY disagree that "the characters are good". While some may have back stories or whatever, many of them feel like massively walking tropes. Odin is just a catch phrase man (so is Arthur plus bad luck). Pierre is just bloodthirsty. Oboro is fashion gurl+nohrian h8t0r with a bit of back story. Severa is a tsundere (I think that's how you spell it). Inigo is a womanizer. Etc, etc, etc...

I honestly don't mind tropes as long as that doesn't define their entire character as a whole(...and maybe if they are made interesting enough for fun supports and not pushed in your face to annoying degrees)!

A bad example would be Peri...who gets pretty annoying with the whole "murder everyone" thing. Supports help you understand and develop a character. A lot of(or most of) Peri's supports don't! (Thank God in her support with Laslow, he gets her to actually THINK about her murderous actions. And their S support actually got an "D'aaaww" outta me for how sweet it was...which was surprising )!

A good example, in my opinion, is Arthur. Sure he has bad luck, but he tries to help others as much as can DESPITE his bad luck! And while after a couple supports which...kinda made me worry for that guy(because his luck can get him killed), I kinda admire his determination to help and care for others with the odds against him! Not the best example, but he's better than some others on my opinion( COUGH*CAMILLA*COUGH)!

(Seriously, Camilla was almost as bad as, or worse than, Cordelia and Tharja with the whole obsession thing......and kinda made it creepy for me...there's sisterly love, but...jeez...)

Also, just to say...

Severa got better as Selena(somewhat)

Owain got worse as Odin(sad to say...)

And Indigo got better as Laslow(best out of the three)

3) The characters in Awakening are largely lame. What I've seen of the ones in Fates is similar. In addition, Corrin is actually painful for me to watch, with characters praising him/her for no reason left and right and generally being the biggest idiot of any lord in the series then never growing out of it. It's insulting.

5) Past games had their flaws, I will admit that. Heck, even FE6, my favorite entry, has flaws I acknowledge and dislike. However, they also had redeeming qualities that minimized the flaws. Awakening didn't have these... at all. Fates has some from what I've seen (read: certain maps in Conquest).

6) Whether change is good or bad depends on the change and a person's opinion... Me? Well, if the rest of this post wasn't any indication, I'm not really a fan of this one overall. Whatever.

7) Overall... Awakening was a bad game. The series is on a downward spiral writing quality wise. Gameplay-wise... Awakening's was horrid, but Fates stepped up some improvements, though some changes (magic and bows in the weapon triangle for example) are stupid (Though Magic could work if instead of adding bows/shurikens they used three separate types of magic and laid it over the weapon one, swords+light > axe+dark > lance+anima, for example). So yes and depends.

What makes it worse is that previous lords, Like Eliwood and Eirika, have had similar issues like not liking to fight or kill and losing people they care about. However, unlike Corrin, they actually grow stronger and learn from what happens during everything going on(and they had to deal with losing ALOT, but they weren't depressed for a super long time because they figured that that wouldn't change anything and that they need to end the conflict that lead to how things are)!

Also, in my opinion, Corrin feels generic. Sure, he's a nice guy, but I can't tell what kind of person he is! I can for all the other FE lords, but Corrin is just...*sigh*...standard and not very interesting to me...

And to think his sibling(mostly the Nohr side) are SO much more interesting! Heck, even Elise could've been a better protagonist considering that in some supports she tries to better herself and help make the world a better place/more peaceful and united kinda like Corrin( and she has screwed up AND been scorned for by people like Xander in her support with him)! Some People may not like her(I personally think she's pretty alright), but she at least HAS a personality and grows stronger!

Another thing is that I felt Awakening and Fates had a bit of weird difficulty shifts.

Not to say the older games didn't have them, but they seem more apparent in Awakening and Fates! Some chapters are easy as pie, some are fairly challenging, and some are a load of bull(*glares at chap.21 of Conquest*)!

I honestly feel more likely to replay the older games more then these newer ones. I don't hate them, but I kinda feel like I don't enjoy them as much. Writing especially(that took a nosedive)! I think they need to not have children unless they did what FE4 did, because then you have some many supports that compromises are made to cut down on how much unique stuff is written and that can lead to some VERY bad writing! Make them limited and specific to certain people again. I'll take less suports with more quality over 100+ supports and only half are really good while the other half is very debatable!

[Nym]

True, Awakening did save the series but for the best? Uhh... not sure

It's not that I don't like Fates: the gameplay is wayy better than awakening but the story is really, really bad. Even Awakening shines a little bit in term of the story (aside from arc 3).

Or reusing the children is literrally plain obvious that they tried to make money out of it.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Nym

[blah the Prussian]

5) COMPLETELY disagree that "the characters are good". While some may have back stories or whatever, many of them feel like massively walking tropes. Odin is just a catch phrase man (so is Arthur plus bad luck). Pierre is just bloodthirsty. Oboro is fashion gurl+nohrian h8t0r with a bit of back story. Severa is a tsundere (I think that's how you spell it). Inigo is a womanizer. Etc, etc, etc...

I have to say I disagree with this. While the main characters of both Awakening and Fates are absolutely atrocious, I don't think there's anything wrong with making the minor characters less developed. If you look at past FE games, their minor characters are tropes too (Gatrie is a womanizer, Kieran is belligerent, Sain is also a womanizer, Farina loves money, so does Rennac, L'Arachel is spoiled sweet, Valter and Narshen are arrogant rapists, etc.) It's fine giving the minor characters less development, and I will say that I haven't found the minor characters of Awakening or Fates with some exceptions to be bad.

[Dinar87]

I have to say I disagree with this. While the main characters of both Awakening and Fates are absolutely atrocious, I don't think there's anything wrong with making the minor characters less developed. If you look at past FE games, their minor characters are tropes too (Gatrie is a womanizer, Kieran is belligerent, Sain is also a womanizer, Farina loves money, so does Rennac, L'Arachel is spoiled sweet, Valter and Narshen are arrogant rapists, etc.) It's fine giving the minor characters less development, and I will say that I haven't found the minor characters of Awakening or Fates with some exceptions to be bad.

When you put it that way I guess the main problem isn't that the minor characters are 'bad' but that the 'good' characters aren't very good at all. Personally I found Jill's development (which was done mainly through base convos mind you) from being a racist, honour-chasing soldier to a respectable knight is FAR better than any character in awakening. While it's sadly true that the likes of Gatrie are basically identical to Inigo personality-wise, I feel that, when the Tellius series did good characters, it did them VERY well as opposed to awakening. I also find villains like shiharam to be FAR more interesting than any gangrel, walhart, validar, etc... Aversa had some development but too little too late. Mustafa was good but ultimately feels like an inferior version of Shiharam or Camus.

But yes, the Tellius series unfortunately has many filler characters like Heather whose personality is literally "I'm a lesbian guys".

I'll settle for agreeing to disagree though because I'm not looking for a heated debate or anything.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Dinar87

[TheAstraWolf]

Did Crash brought good points? Yes. But like someone else said up there, this is the guy who said Dancers are bad, Azura is good in any shape or form and is currently doing a very badly structured Fates Marathon of videos

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Did Crash brought good points? Yes. But like someone else said up there, this is the guy who said Dancers are bad, Azura is good in any shape or form and is currently doing a very badly structured Fates Marathon of videos

yeah this is pretty much my view on him.

he's not a bad guy or a bad person, but when he's wrong about something, its just plain WRONG, not even from an opinion view point, but a viewpoint that can be disproved with facts.

which is mostly why i tend to not listen to his videos, and chances are i'll ignore this one too unless i HAVE to watch it under threat of being banned.

[Jedi]

I don't trust someones opinions who are purely wrong on a gameplay perspective such as Dancers being a bad class.

[The DanMan]

Here's my comment on the video, for what it's worth:

"Though you've done your research, it feels like you haven't really talked with anybody who dislikes these games.

_Your usage of "it saved the series" argument falls flat, due to some preferring the series to have ended over continuing as it is now.

_You say "several" characters are too over the top and just plain silly, when I (and many others) would argue that the vast majority fall into this- being largely bereft of depth and just being walking gimmicks. You act like Camilla was meant to have actual depth, when we have the games' creators joking that she looks like a cow in an interview. Considering comments like this and one look at the support system, it becomes largely obvious that the characters are meant to be fetishes first and foremost, with any actual character or depth coming secondary.

_Why did you enjoy Fates' story? It's massively carved up over the three routes and DLC, on top of having massive plot-holes.

_TMS itself has caught a lot of flack, for being... too Japanese, in all the wrong ways- on top of making things Akaneia only.

Overall, though we largely disagree on things, it's nice to see words of criticism leveled at the newer games that aren't related to the localization."

[Troykv]

Reading some of this stuff makes me wonder if wouldn't be a bad to try to report his channel... Okay, just kidding.

I like that there a guy that does Fire Emblem-related Top Ten... but he isn't the one that deserves the attention because he didn't do enough research of people opinions (specially in specialized sites like this).

[Irysa]

FE12 is to blame for neo Fire Emblem, not FE13. All the good things about FE13 and 14 as well as the bad can be said to have roots in FE12.

Unfortunately most Awakening haters haven't played it so...

Edited August 5, 2016 by Irysa

[Troykv]

FE12 is to blame for neo Fire Emblem, not FE13. All the good things about FE13 and 14 as well as the bad can be said to have roots in FE12.

Unfortunately most Awakening haters haven't played it so...

That is true... sorta, FE12 is the first game in the franchise that has Maeda as its director. The Avatar, small-escale/main-character-focused stories (in this case as side-stories), and the No-Perma Death mode.