[Game Theory] ITP's and general balance

[Randa]

So the title should say it all. I'm beginning work, for like the 7th time, on Gunnerkrigg Court mafia, seriously I gotta stop losing the spreadsheet for this, and I've run into a bit of a problem. The games gonna be anonymous, so <15 players, but I want to include an itp. The problem is TNM's itp was horribly underpowered and looking back I'm not sure what I would change about the character that would put it in a good position without it just stomping town and maf.

So I'm asking the general mafia sub forum a few questions. Note these are all opinion so just say what you think.

What is the minimum number of players in a game that makes it viable to add an itp without breaking the game?

Which type of itp is the most fun to play as and against?

Do you even enjoy having an itp in the game?

Do you think roll madness games are more fun or better balanced than games with a large number of vanillas?

Would you ever like to see a cowboy bebop type roll again?

[Life]

What's an ITP? I'm going to assume it's "Independent Third Player" or a Wolf.

For balance, a Wolf should be designed to be the kingmaker rather than win. If the vast majority of scenarios have the wolf losing but going far in the game, you've balanced it right.

[Randa]

"independent third party", so stuff like wolf, sk, arsonist, lyncher, bounty hunter, cult, etc.

also life since i know you prefer oc to noc by a wide margin do you think a 15 person oc game would work with something like an sk or an arsonist?

[Life]

"independent third party", so stuff like wolf, sk, arsonist, lyncher, bounty hunter, cult, etc.

also life since i know you prefer oc to noc by a wide margin do you think a 15 person oc game would work with something like an sk or an arsonist?

I hosted a 10 person game where the Wolf won by luck after exhausting the one thing that gave them a chance at surviving (invincibility for the first night and day). So yes.

Here's the thing though. If you want a role like Survivor (live to the end of the game), you should also have a Hitman (must kill Survivor to win). The best game that I ever saw was one where every single person had two win conditions and either had to be fulfilled to win. So it allows you to either play for the team or for yourself and with other people.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Pharoahe Monch

[Prims]

What is the minimum number of players in a game that makes it viable to add an itp without breaking the game?

the minimum is low if you can balance it right, but given that people who know what they're doing still struggle to balance it right, I'd say 15 is the lowest and that's still a bit risky

Which type of itp is the most fun to play as and against?

against: SK

as: none :)

Do you even enjoy having an itp in the game?

only in large games where it's necessary to have a SK to whittle down the numbers

Do you think roll madness games are more fun or better balanced than games with a large number of vanillas?

in NOC it's better to have more vanillas unless you can make all the roles in role madness very low-power

Would you ever like to see a cowboy bebop type roll again?

nope

[SB.]

What is the minimum number of players in a game that makes it viable to add an itp without breaking the game?

11-12 if you're really conservative.

Which type of itp is the most fun to play as and against?

As: Cult

Against: SK

Do you even enjoy having an itp in the game?

If the numbers feel fair.

Do you think roll madness games are more fun or better balanced than games with a large number of vanillas?

Large role madness > Smaller low power = Small role madness > Larger low power > Role madness trainwreck of any size

Would you ever like to see a cowboy bebop type roll again?

Burn it.

Edited March 8, 2016 by SB.

[ZoesMad]

Can someone enlighten me what cowboy bebop type role is

[SB.]

a serial killer for lame people

[Randa]

Can someone enlighten me what cowboy bebop type role is

I would just go read toonami which is one seven games I recommend everyone should read. Right behind Fayz mafia.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Randa

[BBM]

14p is the minimum for ITPs IMO. But really it depends on the type of ITP too.

SK is the most fun to play as and against. Arsonists are the least fun to play as and against. ITPs are fun normally, unless they are Arsonists.

I like role madness games more because while there are hipsters like Prims who like being Vanilla, most people don't. Even if you're one of the people who get a role, the people who don't are less invested and it lowers the overall quality of game play IMO.

The wincon of Cowboy Bebop was cool; some of the other abilities he had + how he interacted with the other roles in the game was not.

Edited March 9, 2016 by BBM

[CT075]

ITPs are fun normally, unless they are Arsonists.

what, you think solo arsonist in a game with three hookers and a redirector wasn't fun????

[Randa]

now here's an interesting question for every body based on something mitsuki said in kirby mafia. i'm just gonna paraphrase but mitsuki can correct me if im wrong. anyways the post basically said that a vote's sole purpose is for scumhunting, however i find my self disagreeing. i feel that a vote and the lynch in particular should be considered much in the same way as mafia's night kill. that is to say the vote should be used in a way that is designed to put town into the most advantageous position. "but randa whats more advantageous than lynching scum", in all honesty not a whole lot. however kirby also presented me with an interesting example of the weight of a vote and showed in my opinion why people need to consider their vote as something more than just slapping it on the scummiest person.

take for example the case of SB the SK and michelear. now town is upset that SB was the SK, well maf was thrilled he was as we got a free mislynch out of the whole thing. however looking at it from a purely objective standpoint, that is to say i know nothing about the situation aside from there being a claim that SB and michelear. i propose that the correct answer in this situation is to lynch SB regardless of reads. the reason is the strength of the player. no offense to michelear but SB is a significantly stronger player, he is in my opinion one of the best and most consistent players on the site.

so why then would town want to lynch SB when he isnt guaranteed to be scum. the reason in my opinion is pretty simple, if SB is mislynched and he was town then it is an absolute and town loses one of its better players, but the game itself was filled with relatively strong and experienced players so the loss of SB wouldn't have been as bad as letting scum SB live, regardless of whether he was SK, 2/3/4 man mafia team member. now it was fortunate that there was a masshook in the game, and i dont really remember if this was claimed day 2 or not.

now if michelear were scum, their impact would be considerably less than scum!SB and they would pose a minimal threat, this however goes both ways as they aren't likely to contribute to town to the same degree as SB would. now considering this i feel the risk versus reward in this specific scenario wasn't worth the risk of leaving SB alive. where as there is no real risk or reward for keeping michelear alive, keep in mind their content was minimal at the time of lynch.

now obviously this is an opinion on a very specific example, but i think it helps to make the point of why i'm asking this question. what is the true weight and value of a vote? should it be used purely on the scummiest person or should it be used more to put town in the best position?

"but randa what if it's a gambit?", who on the site, besides myself, would even think to attempt this as a gambit let alone have the balls to follow through. and even then you won't have to worry about me attempting something like this for reasons that will become clear once prims officially ends kirby.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Randa

[Mitsuki]

I don't agree, in a 1 vs 1 like that you always lynch the person who you think is the scummiest. Because that way it's not a 50% chance of being right, at least if you believe that people have a higher chance of making the right decision. It wasn't the case this time, but most times it is.

Personally I think there are no situations in which a final vote is going to be in a better position than your biggest scumread. But you can vote people for other reasons during the day, like reaction testing.

[Randa]

The problem was Michelear didn't exist, so if you wanna say he's scummier what do you base it on. Do you just say SB is towny so let's lynch Michelear, because not lynching according to scum reads it's an early game PoE.

Also I would agree about the reaction test thing but SF generally hates reaction tests.

[Bluedoom]

Tbh since mike was inactive, and apparently SB was town read by people, the lynch happened the way it did.

Mike didn't look scummy when I checked his iso lol.

[Mitsuki]

But that means you still have some sort of read, I don't see the problem with it.