No Warpskip - changes to the Tier List?

[Espinosa]

Similarly to how there's a tier list on the site for playing Sacred Stones without the best character, 'sethless', imagine Warp being banned from use as the single most gamebreaking strategy in Shadow Dragon.

Looking at the latest (I think) Warpskip tier list, how would you say the absence of Warp would affect the positions of characters on it? Certainly Shiida would lose some of her usefulness as she stops being essentially the sole combat unit you need and becomes one of the many, though her bosskilling abilities probably have no equal regardless. Barst, Ogma, Hardin and the early cavs rise up. Will Merrick rise above Wendell due to having a lot more time to grow? Both the ballisticians probably grow in utility as there will be too many times where you'll be tempted to deploy them.

I'm also thinking that Wolf/Sedgar could go way up when there's more time and space to make them strong, and you can just leave one of them behind on a fort to absorb all the reinforcements (which isn't really needed with Warp in play). I recall hearing the opinion that they're outclassed by the other good units, like Barst and Abel/Cain/Hardin, but it's too easy to trivialise hard parts of the game by using one of these two, and you don't really have a more capable tank.

Warpskip tier:

Sorry for the double post. Here's the actual tier list. Didn't have room for it above.

Badass Eyepatch Tier:

Lawrence

Goddess Tier:

Shiida

Rena

Cripples Medeus:

Nagi

Tiki

Best Warpskippers/Healers: (screw the rest- we lack the money/time for gordin to go priest/sniper - pick 3 aside from Rena and Elice)

Rena

Wrys

Wendell

Boa

Jeigan

Elice

High:

Wendell

Jeigan

Barst

Ogma

Merric

Abel

Hardin

Upper Mid:

Marth

Castor

Bord

Cain

Lower Mid:

Bantu

Wolf

Sedgar

Gordin

Draug

Cord

Astram

Darros

Navarre

Julian

Midia

Joke Tier:

Vyland

Roshe

Ceasar/Radd

Pure Negatives:

Everyone else

[dondon151]

sedgar and wolf are still going to be utility units at best, warpskip or not. H5 does not require tanks and their rate of EXP gain is painfully slow.

oh also maria is pretty solid as a staff user in warpskip. about as good as wrys actually since you have to spam those heal staves.

Edited December 22, 2012 by HORSEBlRD

[Espinosa]

sedgar and wolf are still going to be utility units at best, warpskip or not. H5 does not require tanks and their rate of EXP gain is painfully slow.

What about instances like Minerva's join chapter, where you're unlikely to fight off all the reinforcements that start to (very quickly) appear and catch up, due to being mounted? Leave one of them as a General on a fort, and watch the exp rate go up very quickly during enemy phase. You should get a couple levels in that chapter alone just by killing all the Horsemen that appear.

Their utility can't be too impressive though, since Sorceror provides only E staff rank at base, there's no Sniper, no Dracoknight...

[dondon151]

there is no fort in that map

the best option for doing that map warpless would just be to reclass one of them to general and park him at the entrance to the prison while everyone else moves inside, since marth talking to maria takes 7 turns minimum anyway. you're not going to gain very much EXP like that, though.

also their utility as the first promoted class set B units that you get for a long time is not to be underestimated. they're actually probably a bit more useful in warpskip, since their utility as horsemen on a couple of maps is useful for removing specific targets (chapters 7 and 9 come to mind; in chapter 7 they are the only units who can OHKO both enemy PKs on turn 2, and in chapter 9 they can chip away at the devil axe pirate for a cav to cleanly KO without taking a counter). their utility in chapter 7 is still relevant in warpless if you're recruiting bantu. as generals, they're useful in chapter 6, where one of them can choke the opening to that room in the north and another can try to KO the mage and archer in the throne room across the wall with curate support.

Edited December 22, 2012 by HORSEBlRD

[Espinosa]

Right, no fort on that map... Let's say we do try to use Wolf (because higher base speed and luck than Sedgar, so less crit scare). Until chapter 10, besides his join chapter where Wolf is probably too shy to see combat with Horseman class bases and pulling a crapload of enemies by baiting at least one of them unto the weakest part of your party on that map, Wolf exists for 5 chapters until chapter 10 (counting 6x). They have some promoted enemies too, some quite a few even (4 Horsemen in chapter 8), so Wolf is not unlikely to get 2 levels before chapter 10. Horseman!Wolf has 85% growth in speed, which prevents him from being doubled by Cav reinforcements in chapter 10. General!Wolf levelling up twice has a 64% chance of giving you +4 HP and a 81% chance of giving you +2 defence. 35 HP, 17 def Wolf takes 5x2 damage from each Horseman and 6 damage from Silver Sword Cavaliers (who might occasionally miss). Wolf is also 3-4HKOing the Horsemen with a Javelin, and slaying the Cavs in 4-5 hits.

So he's probably still holding the chokepoint instead of standing there in the open (a fort would make a big difference but I was thinking chapter 8 when I wrote that) but he can afford to face 2-3 of them at once, and might switch to different weapons besides Javelins depending on the situation (Steel Lance for +10 hit, +2 Mt). Having to heal with Vulneraries could limit his player phase potential however.

So Wolf/Sedgar are used even in Warpskip, sniping things with D bows as Horsemen and 9 move. Might as well snipe some Dracos since other characters should be levelling up fine on unpromoted stuff, and Wolf/Sedgar levels bring stats far superior to what your unpromoted could see in their dreams. 5 levels as General gives these two stats that could absorb most sword users' attacks for a good dozen of chapters to come, because their defence grows at a steadier pace than the offensive potential of the opposition.

You're saying tanking is of no use on H5. Wouldn't you like to be countered by a Brave weapon, 1RKO and stand there barely injured? At a time when your other characters might be at risk of being 2HKO'd no less.

Generals also have the same movement as unpromoted Barst, whom we're probably taking along on any map anyway. Hell, Wolf does some of the same things Barst can do at base (either Berserker or Warrior does the job). 1HKOing Mages with the Devil Axe after a map save? Just enough strength for that, and it keeps growing.

Also, what sort of competition do they have among bow users? Being a General can indeed help raise bow rank to C if you need accurate chip while retaining your tanky properties. And while this argument may not cut it in Shadow Dragon when you're spending large amounts of money on forged Wing Spear and Horseslayers, they do not need a Master Seal to keep being useful. The resources in terms of exp are hard to ignore though, but isn't it paying off?

Edited December 22, 2012 by Espinosa

[PKL]

there is no fort in that map

Not defending Wolf/Sedgar but,

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe11/guia/capitulo10.htm

you're wrong.

27 spaces to the right, 12 spaces up. There's a fort in one of the deployment slots.

[Espinosa]

Oh right, that's how we missed it. Could've sworn there was one on that map since I (thought I) always used it. Anyway, the fort would make substantial changes to the survival of -/5 Wolf on that map (providing additional defence, avoid and recovery) and place him further on his way of self-improvement while taking kills your other party members would have trouble taking.

[dondon151]

So he's probably still holding the chokepoint instead of standing there in the open (a fort would make a big difference but I was thinking chapter 8 when I wrote that) but he can afford to face 2-3 of them at once, and might switch to different weapons besides Javelins depending on the situation (Steel Lance for +10 hit, +2 Mt). Having to heal with Vulneraries could limit his player phase potential however.

you could just reclass both wolf and sedgar to generals and have them alternate the chokepoint with curate support.

So Wolf/Sedgar are used even in Warpskip, sniping things with D bows as Horsemen and 9 move. Might as well snipe some Dracos since other characters should be levelling up fine on unpromoted stuff, and Wolf/Sedgar levels bring stats far superior to what your unpromoted could see in their dreams. 5 levels as General gives these two stats that could absorb most sword users' attacks for a good dozen of chapters to come, because their defence grows at a steadier pace than the offensive potential of the opposition.

but they also gain way less EXP, and their bases are nonexistent or negative. i'm not sure where you're chipping dracos from, either.

let me refer to my chapter 10 save. even after doing their respective useful tasks in chapters 6, 7, and 9, wolf and sedgar are still at base level. now, chapters 7 and 9 are halfskips, and i didn't care a whit about EXP, but even 2 levels for each unit is a very generous assumption by that point. they just level up so slowly.

i also disagree with your assertion that unpromoted units are gaining EXP just fine. gaining EXP, from my personal experience, is a massive challenge in this game for every unit. for example, i had caeda at 9.70 going into chapter 10 and she had taken the bosskills for chapters 2, 4, 5, 7, and 8 bosskills, in addition to whatever normal combat she faced in that time period. of these earlygame maps, only chapters 5, 7, and 9 were halfskips, and those were only after marth visited a village anyway. barst was at 8.06 at the beginning of that map.

You're saying tanking is of no use on H5. Wouldn't you like to be countered by a Brave weapon, 1RKO and stand there barely injured? At a time when your other characters might be at risk of being 2HKO'd no less.

uh, no? not if i can just plow through everything with teamwork.

Generals also have the same movement as unpromoted Barst, whom we're probably taking along on any map anyway. Hell, Wolf does some of the same things Barst can do at base (either Berserker or Warrior does the job). 1HKOing Mages with the Devil Axe after a map save? Just enough strength for that, and it keeps growing.

and unpromoted barst has massive challenges gaining EXP, so wolf and sedgar aren't going to fare any better except for when they can tank. i didn't get to promote barst until chapter 13, whereas a unit with more flexible combat utility like hardin promoted in chapter 12.

Also, what sort of competition do they have among bow users? Being a General can indeed help raise bow rank to C if you need accurate chip while retaining your tanky properties. And while this argument may not cut it in Shadow Dragon when you're spending large amounts of money on forged Wing Spear and Horseslayers, they do not need a Master Seal to keep being useful. The resources in terms of exp are hard to ignore though, but isn't it paying off?

you're never going to get their bow rank to C because getting 23 rounds of combat with a bow is nigh impossible. there is also really no utility for bow users anyway in this game.

i have a distinct feeling that you're not aware of just how fast we can go in this game, because your arguments seem incredibly archaic.

addendum about tanking enemies in chapter 10:

wolf needs +2 spd on base in order to have a chance to avoid being doubled by some reinforcement cavaliers and he needs +3 spd on base to avoid being doubled at all. +3 spd is clearly impossible. +2 spd is more unlikely than not if wolf was a general at any point. so he's like, 4RKO'd against a mob of enemies and he kills them extremely slowly if he's just using a javelin. this doesn't sound like a feasible strategy to me.

Edited December 23, 2012 by HORSEBlRD

[Espinosa]

you could just reclass both wolf and sedgar to generals and have them alternate the chokepoint with curate support.

That also works. Or focus on training one of them on that one fort that does indeed exist, and enter the next chapter with an even stronger Wolf.

but they also gain way less EXP, and their bases are nonexistent or negative. i'm not sure where you're chipping dracos from, either.

I'm not forgetting these obvious drawbacks for a second. Lack of weapon ranks is another problem Wolf and Sedgar face, but Arms Scrolls exist and aren't terribly contested, it seems to me. Why would I not give the Draco kill to my Horseman?

In spite of non-existent base stats, Wolf/Sedgar have the high bases of their classes to fall back on (Generals and Heroes I guess).

let me refer to my chapter 10 save. even after doing their respective useful tasks in chapters 6, 7, and 9, wolf and sedgar are still at base level. now, chapters 7 and 9 are halfskips, and i didn't care a whit about EXP, but even 2 levels for each unit is a very generous assumption by that point. they just level up so slowly.

i also disagree with your assertion that unpromoted units are gaining EXP just fine. gaining EXP, from my personal experience, is a massive challenge in this game for every unit. for example, i had caeda at 9.70 going into chapter 10 and she had taken the bosskills for chapters 2, 4, 5, 7, and 8 bosskills, in addition to whatever normal combat she faced in that time period. of these earlygame maps, only chapters 5, 7, and 9 were halfskips, and those were only after marth visited a village anyway. barst was at 8.06 at the beginning of that map.

I need to ask, were growths present on that run at all? Was warping involved? Granted, the real warping on Warpskip maps tends to wait until midgame from what I've read and seen (mainly you). Certainly, with growths you'd have extra motivation to feed Wolf more experience.

About pushing Caeda up in levels: is that really necessary in No Warpskip? As far as I understand, you are in a rush to promote Caeda until chapter 11 for a halfskip of that chapter while recruiting Jake. In NW, Marth has to go all the way around, so there's no hurry and no need to promote Caeda.

you're never going to get their bow rank to C because getting 23 rounds of combat with a bow is nigh impossible. there is also really no utility for bow users anyway in this game.

i have a distinct feeling that you're not aware of just how fast we can go in this game, because your arguments seem incredibly archaic.

If you want to avoid being countered by a Brave weapon at point-blank range, you will resort to attacking at 1~2 range. Gradivus is one way to do it, but it can't be everywhere at once. It seems to me you would train a Sniper or a Horseman of some sort.

How fast exactly can we go with Warp taken out of the picture, do tell me. Marth may not even be using his full move to the throne on every single map for various reasons.

I also get the idea that there's inertia of a very archaic idea that you're expressing, one of the 'Marcus hogs exp' kind. I believe a serious LTC run with the limitation I outlined in the title is necessary.

[dondon151]

I'm not forgetting these obvious drawbacks for a second. Lack of weapon ranks is another problem Wolf and Sedgar face, but Arms Scrolls exist and aren't terribly contested, it seems to me. Why would I not give the Draco kill to my Horseman?

an arms scroll exists, therefore it is very contested. it also doesn't show up until chapter 12. an arms scroll is virtually required for any unit to reach A rank in a weapon that's not lances. the D -> C threshold is very important for any unit wanting to use an effective weapon. C -> B constitutes a 4 MT difference between steels and silvers.

i'm not sure what DK kill you're talking about. if it's chapter 7, then they can't have it if they kill the PKs, and they're the only units who can reach the PKs on turn 2. but in any case, it's just one DK kill, and it's not that much EXP.

In spite of non-existent base stats, Wolf/Sedgar have the high bases of their classes to fall back on (Generals and Heroes I guess).

but hero is a very lackluster class to fall back on when you're stuck at D swords and E axes. they only have 6 base str and are weighed down by steel swords, which is the strongest weapon that they have access to. until they gain a few levels and weapon ranks, wolf and sedgar are only useful as utility units in promoted class set B classes.

I need to ask, were growths present on that run at all? Was warping involved? Granted, the real warping on Warpskip maps tends to wait until midgame from what I've read and seen (mainly you). Certainly, with growths you'd have extra motivation to feed Wolf more experience.

i've already addressed this. i only halfskipped a handful of earlygame maps, and any difference in effort expended on earning EXP for wolf will be insignificant. i've already accounted for this by adding a level to my estimate.

About pushing Caeda up in levels: is that really necessary in No Warpskip? As far as I understand, you are in a rush to promote Caeda until chapter 11 for a halfskip of that chapter while recruiting Jake. In NW, Marth has to go all the way around, so there's no hurry and no need to promote Caeda.

so first, you missed the point. caeda got a lot of bosskills yet was still hurting for EXP. she was my highest leveled unpromoted unit at that point in the game. second, unpromoted caeda still can't outrange jake, and outranging jake is the fastest and safest option for recruiting him. third, caeda caps spd on average at around 10/-- and her HP, str, and def growths are so poor that it's not worth delaying her promotion anyway.

If you want to avoid being countered by a Brave weapon at point-blank range, you will resort to attacking at 1~2 range. Gradivus is one way to do it, but it can't be everywhere at once. It seems to me you would train a Sniper or a Horseman of some sort.

reclass a promoted class set A unit to sniper

How fast exactly can we go with Warp taken out of the picture, do tell me. Marth may not even be using his full move to the throne on every single map for various reasons.

Expected turncount:
01  10 turns  06   6 turns  11   7 turns  16   5 turns  21   1 turn
02   6 turns  07   4 turns  12   6 turns  17   3 turns  22   1 turn
03   6 turns  08   5 turns  13   3 turns  18   7 turns  23   1 turn
04   5 turns  09   4 turns  14   6 turns  19   1 turn   24   1 turn
05   4 turns  10   7 turns  15   2 turns  20   3 turns  End  1 turn

Total turncount: 105 turns 

i don't doubt for a second that marth can use his full move on every map after chapter 2. (these turncounts are with warp.)

I also get the idea that there's inertia of a very archaic idea that you're expressing, one of the 'Marcus hogs exp' kind. I believe a serious LTC run with the limitation I outlined in the title is necessary.

what? that's a serious insinuation. you know full well that i'm the last person that would espouse that sort of outdated ideology.

Edited December 23, 2012 by HORSEBlRD

[Espinosa]

wolf needs +2 spd on base in order to have a chance to avoid being doubled by some reinforcement cavaliers and he needs +3 spd on base to avoid being doubled at all. +3 spd is clearly impossible. +2 spd is more unlikely than not if wolf was a general at any point. so he's like, 4RKO'd against a mob of enemies and he kills them extremely slowly if he's just using a javelin. this doesn't sound like a feasible strategy to me.

Here Gergeshwan entered chapter 10 with a -/7 Sedgar (not Wolf), during his H5 run that didn't make use of warp for skipping maps, though he did use the staff for different convenient strats. His turns on that run could definitely be improved, but that's one instance of Sedgar in use during a run that doesn't make use of any half or full warpskip strategies.

He also had enough defence and speed to barely receive any damage in that chapter, and not get doubled by Cavs (who couldn't damage him anyway).

General!Wolf has a 60% growth in speed, and that's higher than Hardin and what have you. Very reliable to proc, and you have two map saves on a lot of maps, might as well use one if it pays back.

an arms scroll exists, therefore it is very contested. it also doesn't show up until chapter 12. an arms scroll is virtually required for any unit to reach A rank in a weapon that's not lances. the D -> C threshold is very important for any unit wanting to use an effective weapon. C -> B constitutes a 4 MT difference between steels and silvers.

Arms Scrolls can be bought in chapter 24's secret shop, probably on time if you want to equip more advanced weapons for the Endgame map.

Users not specialising in lances may not want one at all. Ogma doesn't need any more sword rank, nor does Nabarl, the same goes for Barst and axes. Cavs who have been using lances, like Hardin and possibly also Abel (if you're training him), might appreciate one after they reclass, so that they could very easily have C swords when they reclass into Paladins. e.g. imagine an unlikely scenario where Abel didn't use a sword a single time before his promotion. He reclasses to Swordmaster and an AS gives him 60 sword wexp from C to B rank. If he reclasses back to Paladin, he will no longer have E swords and will actually be 66% on his way to C rank. The same applies to Caeda, whom you may want to wield effective weapons (Armorslayer and Wyrmslayer) while retaining 10 move.

And that's about all I can think of. Wolf/Sedgar, if used, benefit from an Arms Scroll the most, and getting them to C swords lets them function better as Heroes, because you're probably not seeing one for some 10 chapters after they join. Getting up axe rank is not an entirely bad idea, either (for hammering stuff). I don't see why you wouldn't give Wolf your AS, unless you had a priori decided to not use him outside of the utility tasks you outlines.

so first, you missed the point. caeda got a lot of bosskills yet was still hurting for EXP. she was my highest leveled unpromoted unit at that point in the game. second, unpromoted caeda still can't outrange jake, and outranging jake is the fastest and safest option for recruiting him. third, caeda caps spd on average at around 10/-- and her HP, str, and def growths are so poor that it's not worth delaying her promotion anyway.

With B Marth support (can't miss that one), capped speed and high luck, Jake's chances of not missing Caeda are like 50/50 (he has little luck and no skill whatsoever). Use a save point and reset if it doesn't happen. There are also those other ballisticians and enemies you have to clear beforehand, since you're not warpskipping that map.

Caeda gets bosskill experience because she's the best at bosskilling in the majority of situations, not because you are in a hurry to raise or promote her. Her durability barely improves, and strength is unlikely to. Most stat increases besides the three stats she likes to grow in and eventually capram she doesn't really need - she's fast enough, connects attacks well and will not be critted even by Killer weapons (not that you want to expose her to them). Her promotion bonuses in strength and defence will probably exceed all the boosts she gets during her level-ups during the entirety of your playthrough. Personally I don't see a reason not to postpone Caeda's promotion until chapter 13 in no-warpskip play.

Other units struggling to promote is also a pointer towards the effectiveness of a promoted growth unit that doesn't have to worry about promotion, I think.

i don't doubt for a second that marth can use his full move on every map after chapter 2. (these turncounts are with warp.)

10-turning the first map? That's really impressive. Also don't forget that you warpskipped all the chapters with Brave enemies. Your characters are probably not limited to player phase attacking and want to survive a round of combat when facing one of such enemies on enemy phase. Wolf/Sedgar are about the only ones with sufficient bulk to expose themselves to more than one, besides units like General!Darros who are far harder to train due to not having a reclass option that immediately grants them some sort of utility.

Wolf and Sedgar also do have Sorceror on maps where they are far from the next level-up and could gain experience by spamming staves without touching any enemies (or they COULD counter chip something on EP with a tome, why the hell not).

Oh, and 9-move Marth will get in all sort of trouble on H5 if an equally mobile unit doesn't rush in to redirect some enemy attacks.

what? that's a serious insinuation. you know full well that i'm the last person that would espouse that sort of outdated ideology.

Precisely why I'm still very much interested in discussing this. The "hogs exp" charges have been rightfully dropped off the Jeigans, and Wolf/Sedgar needn't take so blame either. Especially where immediate utility and longterm potential through stellar growths are concerned.

[General Horace]

this is really kind of an iffy topic, seeing as there are no real efficient runs (to my knowledge) with warp excluded.

That being said, there's no doubt that Cain should be above scrubs such as Castor. Merric could definately drop as well, wendall is much better than him for long enough and lena can easily take a scroll and kill gharnef.

in other news, where the fuck is Xane, he's a huge boon for his whole existance in H5.

not touching wolfsedgar because i'd think they're terrible for efficient h5. i'd expect the same thing to happen to what people thought of them in normal h5 to come up, strategies that don't require their additional bulk.

Edited December 24, 2012 by General Horace

[dondon151]

Gergeshwan entered chapter 10 with a -/7 Sedgar (not Wolf), during his H5 run that didn't make use of warp for skipping maps, though he did use the staff for different convenient strats. His turns on that run could definitely be improved, but that's one instance of Sedgar in use during a run that doesn't make use of any half or full warpskip strategies.

but he used warp. i thought that this was warpless?

in any case i know that someone like anouleth will come in and quip "but this is not an LTC tier list," but the faster we go, the more accurately we can discern differences in units of similar caliber.

General!Wolf has a 60% growth in speed, and that's higher than Hardin and what have you. Very reliable to proc, and you have two map saves on a lot of maps, might as well use one if it pays back.

60% is not very reliable to proc if you need at least 2 points. i don't understand the relevance to hardin's spd growth because hardin is unpromoted and doesn't gain EXP at the same rate.

Arms Scrolls can be bought in chapter 24's secret shop, probably on time if you want to equip more advanced weapons for the Endgame map.

now i know that you're grasping at straws

Users not specialising in lances may not want one at all. Ogma doesn't need any more sword rank, nor does Nabarl, the same goes for Barst and axes. Cavs who have been using lances, like Hardin and possibly also Abel (if you're training him), might appreciate one after they reclass, so that they could very easily have C swords when they reclass into Paladins. e.g. imagine an unlikely scenario where Abel didn't use a sword a single time before his promotion. He reclasses to Swordmaster and an AS gives him 60 sword wexp from C to B rank. If he reclasses back to Paladin, he will no longer have E swords and will actually be 66% on his way to C rank. The same applies to Caeda, whom you may want to wield effective weapons (Armorslayer and Wyrmslayer) while retaining 10 move.

did you just kind of ignore my post or something? units not specializing in lances (like nabarl) might actually really like an arms scroll because the ridersbane is one of the best options for effective weaponry in the game. you've also conceded that units with no prior sword WEXP might like an arms scroll (which is a lot of units). all of these units would like to have the single arms scroll that is available at a point in the game where these units are just promoting.

And that's about all I can think of. Wolf/Sedgar, if used, benefit from an Arms Scroll the most, and getting them to C swords lets them function better as Heroes, because you're probably not seeing one for some 10 chapters after they join. Getting up axe rank is not an entirely bad idea, either (for hammering stuff). I don't see why you wouldn't give Wolf your AS, unless you had a priori decided to not use him outside of the utility tasks you outlines.

you get your 3rd master seal at the same time that you get your 1st arms scroll

you are not improving wolf or sedgar more than you are improving someone else. you are bringing them to parity using a resource that could instead further benefit another unit, and all of those units that would like to use ridersbanes or silver swords or whatnot highly desire that resource. at chapter 12, wolf and sedgar are not likely to have gone from D -> C in any weapon rank except for maybe lances (but general is a garbage class anyway), so whatever they get out of the arms scroll is going from D -> C in a single weapon rank. quite underwhelming.

With B Marth support (can't miss that one), capped speed and high luck, Jake's chances of not missing Caeda are like 50/50 (he has little luck and no skill whatsoever). Use a save point and reset if it doesn't happen. There are also those other ballisticians and enemies you have to clear beforehand, since you're not warpskipping that map.

we can theoryFE all day, but i guarantee you that an aggressive strategy will work on this map.

Caeda gets bosskill experience because she's the best at bosskilling in the majority of situations, not because you are in a hurry to raise or promote her. Her durability barely improves, and strength is unlikely to. Most stat increases besides the three stats she likes to grow in and eventually capram she doesn't really need - she's fast enough, connects attacks well and will not be critted even by Killer weapons (not that you want to expose her to them). Her promotion bonuses in strength and defence will probably exceed all the boosts she gets during her level-ups during the entirety of your playthrough. Personally I don't see a reason not to postpone Caeda's promotion until chapter 13 in no-warpskip play.

your reasoning makes no sense. caeda's level ups suck, so you should promote her later? nearly any other unit would benefit more from staying unpromoted than caeda. you also missed my point. caeda is leveling up faster than any other unit because she is getting bosskill EXP. she may very well be the only unit who can promote at that point (i had hardin reach 10.14 at the end of chapter 10; barst was the next closest to promotion at 8.73).

Other units struggling to promote is also a pointer towards the effectiveness of a promoted growth unit that doesn't have to worry about promotion, I think.

no it doesn't. you stated in this very sentence why a promoted growth unit is ineffective: they're promoted, and they're growth units.

Wolf and Sedgar also do have Sorceror on maps where they are far from the next level-up and could gain experience by spamming staves without touching any enemies (or they COULD counter chip something on EP with a tome, why the hell not).

a promoted heal staff use yields 8 EXP. you'd be hard pressed to gain more than 40 EXP on any given map.

Oh, and 9-move Marth will get in all sort of trouble on H5 if an equally mobile unit doesn't rush in to redirect some enemy attacks.

wolf and sedgar do not have the combination of mobility, offense, and durability to serve this purpose...

Precisely why I'm still very much interested in discussing this. The "hogs exp" charges have been rightfully dropped off the Jeigans, and Wolf/Sedgar needn't take so blame either. Especially where immediate utility and longterm potential through stellar growths are concerned.

the key differences are that traditional jagen archetype units don't require any resources to be good in the short through mid-term. wolf and sedgar have very little utility in the short term other than what i described previously: they have no personal bases and no personal weapon ranks, and they rely entirely on level ups to gain any sort of utility. they are really no different from normal growth units, but they start in a bigger hole than most other units and take a longer time to climb out of that hole.

[Espinosa]

this is really kind of an iffy topic, seeing as there are no real efficient runs (to my knowledge) with warp excluded.

I should probably go ahead and start one once I'm done with my FE6 LTC run, since the last time I played one my turn counts were pretty far from what dondon showed looking at the early chapters alone (10 turns in chapter 1 sounds very focused and luck-reliant when taking the boss down).

That being said, there's no doubt that Cain should be above scrubs such as Castor. Merric could definately drop as well, wendall is much better than him for long enough and lena can easily take a scroll and kill gharnef.

Wendell's Excalibur as a Bishop is exactly as powerful as Merric's if both are at base level magic, and you might want to make Wendell a Bishop to make use of Physic and Recover staves right off the bat. The argument here is probably Merric's superior magic lategame vs. Wendell's healing throughout the game as well as other utility (the speed base leaves you with plenty of options if you feel like forging some steel weapons with decreased weight). If you really want a mage more reliable than Lena at Gharnef-killing (you might as well skip Falchion in this game though), Merric is probably the best choice.

not touching wolfsedgar because i'd think they're terrible for efficient h5. i'd expect the same thing to happen to what people thought of them in normal h5 to come up, strategies that don't require their additional bulk.

I remember during your recentest H5 playlog you made several notes saying that having General Wolf/Sedgar would trivialise challenging aspects of certain maps; granted, it wasn't a focused lowest turns playthrough and something more along the lines of reliability / safety / leisure.

but he used warp. i thought that this was warpless?

in any case i know that someone like anouleth will come in and quip "but this is not an LTC tier list," but the faster we go, the more accurately we can discern differences in units of similar caliber.

He didn't start warpskipping until a few chapters in, but he intended that to be a no warp run before changing his mind. He actually used Warp to move Sedgar to the fort in chapter 8, so that's 4 dead Horsemen and a bunch of Cavs, so that explains how Sedgar got 6 levels before chapter 10. Warpless / Warpskipless are kinda different in a way, as you might still use Warp for all sorts of conveniences, including turn shaving.

I do think we should discuss LTC here, because high-level play is what we should be interested in and discussing units without a strict set of guidelines of what the playthrough should be like is meaningless because players assume different playstyles and restricted runs (growths vs no growths, warp vs no warp, visiting gaidens vs keeping everyone alive, recruiting everybody vs skipping units that cost turns, lowest turns vs safest, most reliable strategies). We could use more clarity as to what our playthrough is like in this argument too.

did you just kind of ignore my post or something? units not specializing in lances (like nabarl) might actually really like an arms scroll because the ridersbane is one of the best options for effective weaponry in the game. you've also conceded that units with no prior sword WEXP might like an arms scroll (which is a lot of units). all of these units would like to have the single arms scroll that is available at a point in the game where these units are just promoting.

Must've misinterpreted it as saying that units not specialising in lances will need it for purposes other than axes. Nabarl is likely only reaching C lances after promoting to Paladin, and may naturally reach D rank lances until then.

your reasoning makes no sense. caeda's level ups suck, so you should promote her later? nearly any other unit would benefit more from staying unpromoted than caeda. you also missed my point. caeda is leveling up faster than any other unit because she is getting bosskill EXP. she may very well be the only unit who can promote at that point (i had hardin reach 10.14 at the end of chapter 10; barst was the next closest to promotion at 8.73).

Caeda can wait until your 2nd or 3rd Master Seal to promote if her offence comes solely from her Prf weapon and not her stats, so you don't have to be in a hurry to give her more kills and raise your other units instead.

Also, Marth's path to the throne takes more turns, and as a result Hardin and Barst would be higher-levelled than your other units. You'd also have more time to raise Wolf, maybe Sorceror Wolf.

we can theoryFE all day, but i guarantee you that an aggressive strategy will work on this map.

An aggressive strategy is fine, but is Draco!Caeda (or Draco anyone else) really going to be part of it if Marth isn't warped to seize after Jake is recruited? Imagine Caeda's just recruited Jake (as a Draco, fine). She is now in range of two other Ballisticians, a Sniper, several Cavs, and Horsemen are popping out of the forts at you. If Marth isn't seizing the same turn, then Caeda's not making it out alive.There's also that Manakete whom you need 22 AS to double, which basically requires a trained Swordmaster, so SM Caeda could be used over Draco Caeda on that map.

no it doesn't. you stated in this very sentence why a promoted growth unit is ineffective: they're promoted, and they're growth units.

Don't class bases/utility and the quality of growths matter? This isn't Est we're talking about here. While Hardin will proc speed quicker due to being unpromoted compared to Wolf, this is General Wolf we're talking about and you won't find any other Generals with similarly high growths. Hardin will also experience similar increases in other important stats, like strength and defence, in 3-4 levels compared to Wolf's single level-up.

40 exp / chapter as Sorceror isn't bad at all, and I doubt each and every single one of your unpromoted units on horses will be earning the same amount and more due to having other tasks assigned to them, including but not limited to forming walls to protect Marth (no Rescue staff and therefore barely any player phase kill scavenging in this game) and frail units, holding chokepoints and opening chests with Master Keys when thieves are too fragile or not mobile enough to make it before you're done with the chapter.

wolf and sedgar do not have the combination of mobility, offense, and durability to serve this purpose...

Why is that? A lack of durability (as Horseman) can serve as a sure way to redirect attacks away from Marth, which won't happen if Marth is less durable than your 9-10 move units (though Marth's starting position is fixed in a way that getting your frontliners ahead should work for at least the first couple of turns). Horsemen don't lose anything to your other Cavs, and if you're not warpskipping, you'll probably have 3 Cavs at least, maybe 4 occasionally when Caeda is promoted; probably, Hardin, Cain and/or Abel, Nabarl (better sword rank and durability than base Cain). They're probably not promoting for a while.

Barst also don't have anything besides clutch offence before promoting, doubling seldom and moving no further than a General. You still trained him in warpskip and would probably do the same in no warp.

the key differences are that traditional jagen archetype units don't require any resources to be good in the short through mid-term. wolf and sedgar have very little utility in the short term other than what i described previously: they have no personal bases and no personal weapon ranks, and they rely entirely on level ups to gain any sort of utility. they are really no different from normal growth units, but they start in a bigger hole than most other units and take a longer time to climb out of that hole.

The hole is a cozy Hobbit's hole when you have reliable class bases such as those of a General to immediately rely on (okay, not immediately but in the menu of the next chapter). Levelling up 3-4 times also makes substantial changes to your stats, which other units can't claim after 3-4 levels (yes, I do still remember about the slowed down exp gaining rates).

[General Horace]

I should probably go ahead and start one once I'm done with my FE6 LTC run, since the last time I played one my turn counts were pretty far from what dondon showed looking at the early chapters alone (10 turns in chapter 1 sounds very focused and luck-reliant when taking the boss down).

I tried chapter 1 yesterday night, and depending on your definition of luck reliant (which is really all the early bosses) its easily clearable in 10 turns. I had 3 turns to take him down, and was able to give the kill itself to Cain within 10 turns, so if i had missed even more javelins (i think i only landed 2) 9 might be possible.

Wendell's Excalibur as a Bishop is exactly as powerful as Merric's if both are at base level magic, and you might want to make Wendell a Bishop to make use of Physic and Recover staves right off the bat. The argument here is probably Merric's superior magic lategame vs. Wendell's healing throughout the game as well as other utility (the speed base leaves you with plenty of options if you feel like forging some steel weapons with decreased weight). If you really want a mage more reliable than Lena at Gharnef-killing (you might as well skip Falchion in this game though), Merric is probably the best choice.

I feel that getting falchion would be more efficient as you would skip 24x as a whole, and since there's no warpskip, you don't need nagi.

I find Lena much more reliable than Merric, Merric needs to be 20/17 to not be doubled, and that's nowhere near reasonable.

This is going to sound ridiculous, but he'll be doubled with less than adequete resistance for tanking him if need be, and since both him and Lena will be doubled regardless, Lena will have a level lead, and approixmately the same magic, and much more resistance, she's a much better candidate.

As for Wendall, he's much more valuable than merric early on, as he can nuke those annoying armours, and IIRC he can even double archers and the such as a sage.

I remember during your recentest H5 playlog you made several notes saying that having General Wolf/Sedgar would trivialise challenging aspects of certain maps; granted, it wasn't a focused lowest turns playthrough and something more along the lines of reliability / safety / leisure.

Exactly as you said in the last sentance, it was a leisurely playthrough, and that's where i feel wolf and sedgar really shine. Once they soak up exp, they're definately among the best units on your team, no denying that.

but really, they're getting little to no exp in chapter 5, very little in 6 due to poor weapon ranks and damage output, they could maybe get a bit more in 7 if you feed them Minerva or something, but that's something you could feed like, Draug or whoever you want to use for some bows. They don't have ridersbane access in 8, leaving them without cav exp, and it just escalades from there. They need 5 levels or so to become self sufficient, and that will take far too long in an efficient run.

I'd much rather use the exp on Barst or even Ogma.

He didn't start warpskipping until a few chapters in, but he intended that to be a no warp run before changing his mind. He actually used Warp to move Sedgar to the fort in chapter 8, so that's 4 dead Horsemen and a bunch of Cavs, so that explains how Sedgar got 6 levels before chapter 10. Warpless / Warpskipless are kinda different in a way, as you might still use Warp for all sorts of conveniences, including turn shaving.

I was sort of wondering about the bold since you started this, as you have to use warp in some cases, such as saving Macellan and co (unless you're cool about sacrificing units) but it could be valuable lategame in stopping reinforcements, and even for a more reliable way for Peg!Shiida to recruit Jake.

You could use it for Warping Wolf to the fort in 8 sure, but without levels, he's liable to getting murdered. I'm just not sure where those levels are coming from. Gergeshwans logs are no where near an efficient pace (these days, anyway), his turncount where he stopped (in chapter 15) is more than what Balcerzak and I managed in a draft setting.

I do think we should discuss LTC here, because high-level play is what we should be interested in and discussing units without a strict set of guidelines of what the playthrough should be like is meaningless because players assume different playstyles and restricted runs (growths vs no growths, warp vs no warp, visiting gaidens vs keeping everyone alive, recruiting everybody vs skipping units that cost turns, lowest turns vs safest, most reliable strategies). We could use more clarity as to what our playthrough is like in this argument too.

To be fair, the only gaiden character that might be of SOME use is probably Athena, and mayyyybe Etzel in a pinch, but that's stretching it.

Must've misinterpreted it as saying that units not specialising in lances will need it for purposes other than axes. Nabarl is likely only reaching C lances after promoting to Paladin, and may naturally reach D rank lances until then.

I disagree here, Nabarl's damage output is much stonger with sword, getting +3MT on steels along with nice stuff like the armourslayer when he's stuck with just irons. I'm not huge on his effectiveness in H5 as a whole though.

Caeda can wait until your 2nd or 3rd Master Seal to promote if her offence comes solely from her Prf weapon and not her stats, so you don't have to be in a hurry to give her more kills and raise your other units instead.

Also, Marth's path to the throne takes more turns, and as a result Hardin and Barst would be higher-levelled than your other units. You'd also have more time to raise Wolf, maybe Sorceror Wolf.

Don't class bases/utility and the quality of growths matter? This isn't Est we're talking about here. While Hardin will proc speed quicker due to being unpromoted compared to Wolf, this is General Wolf we're talking about and you won't find any other Generals with similarly high growths. Hardin will also experience similar increases in other important stats, like strength and defence, in 3-4 levels compared to Wolf's single level-up.

I never found Hardin's offence or durability to be all that lacking in my h5 draft run, until very lategame. His offence was always superb due to weapon ranks and H5 AS not being too bad mid-lategame aside from Manaketes.

Barst also don't have anything besides clutch offence before promoting, doubling seldom and moving no further than a General. You still trained him in warpskip and would probably do the same in no warp.

8 move as a hero with B or A axes is nicer than what wolf/sedgar have to offer.

[Espinosa]

I tried chapter 1 yesterday night, and depending on your definition of luck reliant (which is really all the early bosses) its easily clearable in 10 turns. I had 3 turns to take him down, and was able to give the kill itself to Cain within 10 turns, so if i had missed even more javelins (i think i only landed 2) 9 might be possible.

One difference between chapter 1 and the following maps is that it doesn't have a save point, so in case you're unhappy with your turn count after beating the boss (OR Jagen gets critted) you have to start over. Things could go wrong on the way to the boss too, with Jagen's 1 luck and Steel Bow/Javelin chip being inaccurate.

I believe I know what was wrong with my previous H5 runs in that chapter: not enough reliance on Jagen's Silver Lance and too much sandbagging on forts.

I feel that getting falchion would be more efficient as you would skip 24x as a whole, and since there's no warpskip, you don't need nagi.

Whether you're going there probably depends more on the rules of your run. Going to 24x and recruiting Nagi could also help a lot with Medeus, whom your other characters have trouble piercing.

Bantu and Tiki could be skipped however.

Exactly as you said in the last sentance, it was a leisurely playthrough, and that's where i feel wolf and sedgar really shine. Once they soak up exp, they're definately among the best units on your team, no denying that.

but really, they're getting little to no exp in chapter 5, very little in 6 due to poor weapon ranks and damage output, they could maybe get a bit more in 7 if you feed them Minerva or something, but that's something you could feed like, Draug or whoever you want to use for some bows. They don't have ridersbane access in 8, leaving them without cav exp, and it just escalades from there. They need 5 levels or so to become self sufficient, and that will take far too long in an efficient run.

I'd much rather use the exp on Barst or even Ogma.

Doesn't Draug suffer from some of the same problems Wolf and Sedgar experience (poor start, absence of useful weapon ranks), without readily available ways to remedy them? "Tank on a fort" will never work Draug for instance, and he can't reclass to Priest even. As a Hunter, he has 12 atk and 9 AS so he should begin doubling given a good early investment of exp, but knowing the nature of H5, he'll probably chip some enemies to give melee units the kill rather than grab the kill himself.

You could use it for Warping Wolf to the fort in 8 sure, but without levels, he's liable to getting murdered. I'm just not sure where those levels are coming from. Gergeshwans logs are no where near an efficient pace (these days, anyway), his turncount where he stopped (in chapter 15) is more than what Balcerzak and I managed in a draft setting.

Chapter 8 is before enemies start wielding silver weaponry, so Steel bow Horsemen only do 1-2x2 damage to base Wolf on a fort, while 22 atk Steel Sword Cavaliers lose their A rank bonuses at WTD and deal 3x2 damage at imperfect hit rates. With non-skip Warp allowed, Wolf can easily eat them for dinner, though his Javelin/Steel Lance won't be particularly strong. I think a level on Wolf is definitely possible by virtue of him existing in chapters 5 (he CAN snipe Peg Knights and get kills you and dondon would probably prefer to give to Hardin instead), 6, 6x (if we're going there) and 7, maybe even if two if he's killing promoted units or spamming Heal constantly.

I was sort of wondering about the bold since you started this, as you have to use warp in some cases, such as saving Macellan and co (unless you're cool about sacrificing units) but it could be valuable lategame in stopping reinforcements, and even for a more reliable way for Peg!Shiida to recruit Jake.

If you want to visit the Gaiden chapters you have to sacrifice units whether you want it or not, so I guess it's possible (and useful) for some playthroughs and out of question on others. And yeah, knowing how many Warp uses you get, there are too many beneficial uses to be found outside of circumventing the map objective. If nothing else (which isn't the case), it could be used to raise Lena at a ridiculous pace - she might even beat all your combat units if she's the only one using Warp and does so constantly.

I think the line also becomes very thin between no warp/no warpskip; let's say you warp a strong character to fight off some enemies, isn't that essentially a faux halfskip (though halfskipping is bosskilling normally and warping Marth I think).

I disagree here, Nabarl's damage output is much stonger with sword, getting +3MT on steels along with nice stuff like the armourslayer when he's stuck with just irons. I'm not huge on his effectiveness in H5 as a whole though.

Nabarl is as essentially a Cain who's 2 levels higher, has instant C rank swords for better defence, and the only one for a while to use Armorslayer mounted. He needs a speed proc to double AKs in chapter 4 as a Cav, though (so you might keep him as a Myrmidon until his speed issues are resolved). If we look at Cav Cain and Cav Nabarl, the former ends up quite a bit faster. It's difficult to establish if Cain is seeing Ridersbane access until promotion in LTC context, though.

I find Lena much more reliable than Merric, Merric needs to be 20/17 to not be doubled, and that's nowhere near reasonable.

This is going to sound ridiculous, but he'll be doubled with less than adequete resistance for tanking him if need be, and since both him and Lena will be doubled regardless, Lena will have a level lead, and approixmately the same magic, and much more resistance, she's a much better candidate.

As for Wendall, he's much more valuable than merric early on, as he can nuke those annoying armours, and IIRC he can even double archers and the such as a sage.

Good point, Merric isn't one-rounding armors until he procs quite a few points of speed, and you're right about having insufficient AS and resistance for Gharnef.

However, if we want Falchion, then Lena will most likely have to take your sole Arms Scroll (which we've now established to be a highly contested resource) to get C tomes for Starlight, taking it away from the rest of competitors. It's difficult to say if putting Arms Scroll on somebody else cuts turns, but turns shaved shouldn't be our sole measurement of usefulness.

To be fair, the only gaiden character that might be of SOME use is probably Athena, and mayyyybe Etzel in a pinch, but that's stretching it.

Etzel at base can survive a round of combat against Gharnef and doesn't need a Scroll to wield Starlight. Etzel and Xane could probably exchange the Starlight tome to defeat Gharnef in 3 rounds.

8 move as a hero with B or A axes is nicer than what wolf/sedgar have to offer.

True, Wolf/Sedgar may never see Silver Swords in their existence (until Endgame if you choose to), let alone Silver Axes.

[SB.]

Cain has a tendancy to pick up a lot of exp earlygame, as everyone else but Marth has a way to chip at 2 range, or doesn't mind taking a counter as much as Cain does, so he's going to end up the same level as Nabarl, especially if he picks up a bosskill.

[dondon151]

I remember during your recentest H5 playlog you made several notes saying that having General Wolf/Sedgar would trivialise challenging aspects of certain maps; granted, it wasn't a focused lowest turns playthrough and something more along the lines of reliability / safety / leisure.

when did i say that...

Don't class bases/utility and the quality of growths matter? This isn't Est we're talking about here. While Hardin will proc speed quicker due to being unpromoted compared to Wolf, this is General Wolf we're talking about and you won't find any other Generals with similarly high growths. Hardin will also experience similar increases in other important stats, like strength and defence, in 3-4 levels compared to Wolf's single level-up.

but general has very little utility. it's useful in a couple of maps and abysmal otherwise. furthermore, it has been stated time and time again that you are overrating durability to an extreme extent.

40 exp / chapter as Sorceror isn't bad at all, and I doubt each and every single one of your unpromoted units on horses will be earning the same amount and more due to having other tasks assigned to them, including but not limited to forming walls to protect Marth (no Rescue staff and therefore barely any player phase kill scavenging in this game) and frail units, holding chokepoints and opening chests with Master Keys when thieves are too fragile or not mobile enough to make it before you're done with the chapter.

uh, no, you're twisting my words. i said that they are getting 40 EXP in any given chapter maximum. that's because chapters take an average of around 6 turns or less, and you will almost never be able to heal on turn 1. the truth of the matter is, however, that enemies are spread around so sparsely and sorceror's movement is so lackluster that these guys will be fortunate to get 3 heals on any given map.

Why is that? A lack of durability (as Horseman) can serve as a sure way to redirect attacks away from Marth, which won't happen if Marth is less durable than your 9-10 move units (though Marth's starting position is fixed in a way that getting your frontliners ahead should work for at least the first couple of turns). Horsemen don't lose anything to your other Cavs, and if you're not warpskipping, you'll probably have 3 Cavs at least, maybe 4 occasionally when Caeda is promoted; probably, Hardin, Cain and/or Abel, Nabarl (better sword rank and durability than base Cain). They're probably not promoting for a while.

horsemen have -1 mov on DKs and pallies and no effective weaponry

Barst also don't have anything besides clutch offence before promoting, doubling seldom and moving no further than a General. You still trained him in warpskip and would probably do the same in no warp.

1) hammer

2) some of the best offense in chapter 2 onwards

The hole is a cozy Hobbit's hole when you have reliable class bases such as those of a General to immediately rely on (okay, not immediately but in the menu of the next chapter). Levelling up 3-4 times also makes substantial changes to your stats, which other units can't claim after 3-4 levels (yes, I do still remember about the slowed down exp gaining rates).

class bases for promoted units are not substantially better than class bases for unpromoted units, with the exception of generals (that has been covered above). the difference between these class bases for most classes is about as much as the personal class bases of most units, if not less by that point in the game (because other units will have gained stats).

Caeda can wait until your 2nd or 3rd Master Seal to promote if her offence comes solely from her Prf weapon and not her stats, so you don't have to be in a hurry to give her more kills and raise your other units instead.

caeda does need the +4 str from promotion in order to maintain her offensive prowess: otherwise she misses OHKOs with a +4 MT wing spear.

One difference between chapter 1 and the following maps is that it doesn't have a save point, so in case you're unhappy with your turn count after beating the boss (OR Jagen gets critted) you have to start over. Things could go wrong on the way to the boss too, with Jagen's 1 luck and Steel Bow/Javelin chip being inaccurate.

it doesn't matter whether you 10 turn or 11 turn or 12 turn; the point is that there is a strategy that you do to get a 10 turn clear.

[Espinosa]

Cain has a tendancy to pick up a lot of exp earlygame, as everyone else but Marth has a way to chip at 2 range, or doesn't mind taking a counter as much as Cain does, so he's going to end up the same level as Nabarl, especially if he picks up a bosskill.

It's true that he's one of the two units without a Javelin in chapter 1, but you have more than enough of them anyway, and while there will probably be kills Cain is forced to take to help you advance quickly you should have a good doze of control over who does what. Lacking the Javelin Cain also doesn't participate in the boss chip, and while he could definitely take the bosskill, so could anybody else (wouldn't bother with Jeigan, though later on with a map save in sight he could proc speed as a Dracoknight after a reset or two and maintain usefulness for a bit longer). Also, since Cain does kinda the same thing as Nabarl, you could give the bosskill (if you have the capacity to that is; you never know which Javelins hit and how much HP the boss will have when you're about to finish him off with an Iron Sword) to Abel and focus on him more so that instead of a strong Cain and a weaker Abel, you have a strong Abel and an immediately useful Nabarl with C swords (+1 attack, Killing Edge which is probably going to Ogma in chapter 3 anyway, Armorslayer for the next map, mounted if preferred).

when did i say that...

Not you; was quoting Horace there.

uh, no, you're twisting my words. i said that they are getting 40 EXP in any given chapter maximum. that's because chapters take an average of around 6 turns or less, and you will almost never be able to heal on turn 1. the truth of the matter is, however, that enemies are spread around so sparsely and sorceror's movement is so lackluster that these guys will be fortunate to get 3 heals on any given map.

They're still a promoted mage class and can reach injured units with less trouble than Priests and Clerics (besides the instances where you want to use Physic; however, you're probably not spamming the two you have unless it helps with survival). Also, due to the ineffectiveness of staves in this game, they may find themselves able to heal the same unit more than once. I do concede that it takes a bit of effort to ensure they have a job to, for instance by attacking an enemy head-on when you could avoid a counter by means of chip damage. Let's not forget that when we play with growths, HP procs far more often than the other stats, so there's a chance to earn exp even when nobody is really in any need of healing.

horsemen have -1 mov on DKs and pallies and no effective weaponry

Bows are effective against Pegs and Dracos, as occasional as those may be in appearance. 23 rounds with a sword also provides access to two effective blades at once, though it's hard to build sword rank as a Hero when Sorceror and General offer superior options for reliable exp gain.

class bases for promoted units are not substantially better than class bases for unpromoted units, with the exception of generals (that has been covered above). the difference between these class bases for most classes is about as much as the personal class bases of most units, if not less by that point in the game (because other units will have gained stats).

Not a promotion per se, but Hero Barst and Fighter Barst feel like a completely different character.

[dondon151]

They're still a promoted mage class and can reach injured units with less trouble than Priests and Clerics (besides the instances where you want to use Physic; however, you're probably not spamming the two you have unless it helps with survival). Also, due to the ineffectiveness of staves in this game, they may find themselves able to heal the same unit more than once. I do concede that it takes a bit of effort to ensure they have a job to, for instance by attacking an enemy head-on when you could avoid a counter by means of chip damage. Let's not forget that when we play with growths, HP procs far more often than the other stats, so there's a chance to earn exp even when nobody is really in any need of healing.

first of all, if you are fielding wolf or sedgar as sorcerors and taking the spot of actually useful units, then you're not operating efficiently. you have neither the firepower nor the units capable to be able to sustain counterattacks when you can avoid them in the first place (especially in the early to midgame).

second, not everyone is leveling up and proccing HP constantly.

third, let's take a look at how much EXP a promoted unit gains in an actual setting. this is wendell from my new, unreleased chapter 6 video:

wendell starts the map at 1.18 and ends the map at 1.87. he does the following:

barrier use

knight KO

mend use

archer KO

knight KO

boss chip

he gained 69 EXP while doing something every turn, and he got 3 KOs, which is far more combat EXP than units like wolf and sedgar, who have significantly worse offense, can muster.

Bows are effective against Pegs and Dracos, as occasional as those may be in appearance. 23 rounds with a sword also provides access to two effective blades at once, though it's hard to build sword rank as a Hero when Sorceror and General offer superior options for reliable exp gain.

there is nothing special about using bows as a horseman; a unit like barst can reclass to horseman after promotion and provide the exact same utility because wolf and sedgar have 0 personal bow WEXP. i don't understand your contention about using swords as a hero because heroes have less mov than marth, while horsemen are 2 full weapon ranks away from effective weaponry. so you really haven't contested my point at all.

[General Horace]

to be fair, a lot of maps, the heroes 8 movement is enough to still be useful more often than not, since marth starts a few spaces further back.

[dondon151]

heroes have 2 less mov than DK/paladin...

[General Horace]

and one less than marth.

you don't need 10 move for a lot of strategies in fe11

here or here

or you probably get the point now

heroes have a lot more doubling power than pally/draco's regardless, the better offence might be appreciated on some maps.

Edited December 26, 2012 by General Horace

[Espinosa]

8 move is still 1 point more than Marth before getting the Boots. Even the least mobile of Wolf/Sedgar's options isn't losing in mobility to unpromoted Barst.

Also, you can't have more than 3 promoted units until chapter 16, which is kind of a big deal.

You're definitely promoting Caeda (no matter if you do it as soon as possible or when she needs the extra Strength to ORKO a boss without a crit), which leaves two other characters to be promoted. You're probably using Abel, Cain/Nabarl, Barst, Ogma, Hardin, add or remove a character (possible additions could be Merric, Cord, maybe Draug). Squeezing in levels for Catria and Paola seems unlikely in LTC; maybe you're not even recruiting them.

Now, Abel, Cain and Hardin don't benefit a whole lot from a Cavalier -> Paladin promotion, though Nabarl and Cain might have Ridersbane access by virtue of promoting and getting lance rank upgrades; mostly, they want a promotion to be able to fly, double as Swordmasters with C+ sword rank and maybe snipe things to avoid counters. Paladin's main improvement over the first tier is that resistance (which Caeda loses if she flies). However, Barst and Ogma want the extra AS, especially Ogma because his offence is nowhere near as good as Barst when neither doubles (and Ogma doesn't double a whole lot after the first few chapters).

So that's a lot of characters wanting a promotion. If you stop worrying about training some of them and give that exp to one of our Horsemen, Wolf or Sedgar, you will have a fourth promoted, competent combat unit before chapter 16.

How much do people even use Horseman!Barst by the way? I was really puzzled when you brought it up. Barst will not want to let go of his axe rank, while Wolf/Sedgar don't have useful ranks anywhere and could swap classes by virtue of utility and get by thanks to raw stats alone. You also keep accusing me of supposedly overestimating durability in its importance in this game, but you don't give it any credit for a second, though clearly if you don't warpskip nearly every chapter, survival and raw combat parameters matter a lot more. If only 2-3 characters fight / get the bosskills in warpskip, you just forge them expensive effective weapons with crit and huge Mt bonus, but if everybody in your party has to fight, you won't have enough money to accommodate every character with the right forge.

Also, in that chapter 6 example you opened up, Wendell has 6 move, 1 less than Bootless Marth. How come is he getting to chip at the boss when Marth is always using his full move every turn when Heroes apparently aren't mobile enough to see any combat?

[General Horace]

Marth doesn't need to fullmove every turn in that chapter, he'll just end up a couple spaces away from the boss anyway, might as well keep him back out of danger anyway in that chapter. Wendall can easily attack the boss on time with a reasonable starting position.

edit: i'm probably gonna actually start a no warpskip run sometime in the next few days when i have a spare hour or two, would you be interested in a log?

Edited December 26, 2012 by General Horace