I'm convinced that this game started the precedent for narrative and setting issues with later FEs. (SPOILERS FOR LATER FES, NAMELY FATES)

[Alazen]

We have a shoehorned Avatar who is apparently Marth's amazing retcon friend that history forgot about. Kris goes as far as to jump into scenes like where Jagen confronts Lang.

We have a shoehorned assassin subplot that is apparently there to not only shove in more playable characters but also for Kris to have own foes and/or a future wife. Eremiah turns out to be a pawn of Gharnef who never really does anything notable as an enemy. The Chapters for the subplot at large don't work within the narrative Mystery already had as Irysa pointed out over at reddit.

Michalis gets to live even though he died in Mystery. He somehow ends up better off after everything he pulled.

Kris in particular set the stage for Robin and Kamui, both of whom have problems when it comes to how they're handled in the narrative

Edited November 15, 2015 by Alazen

[Gradivus.]

Except FE12's general plot (excluding the gaidens and the prologue) still is good, Awakening has significant plot and characterization issues almost everywhere.

- The scene with Lang is there to explicitly show that Chris doesn't have the kind of power that Marth (and to an extent, Jagen) does. You'll have to elaborate more why it is him getting shoehorned; I would agree if Lang would go defensive against Chris, but he has an easy time dismissing him, so this is not a plot inconsistency.

- "Everything Michalis pulled" is being an antagonist in FE11 and FE12 just gives him more backstory/depth by proving that he isn't "evil" and was in fact manipulated in FE11. Why do you take issue with him surviving?

TL;DR FE12 still has a much better plot than FE13, despite its number of flaws and is the source of only one of FE13's many plot issues. It "starting a precedent for shoehorned Avatars" really fails to excuse the things Awakening additionally did wrong, such as the gimmick-based characters and the lack of backstory for villains, which are entirely unrelated to FE12 MU.

tbh I don't find the assassins subplot extremely bad and think only 3x and 13x have a problem in their placement, but that's for another debate since something like the assassins subplot isn't present in FE13 (idk whether it is in 14).

Edited November 15, 2015 by Gradivus.

[MCProductions]

Honestly, FE hasn't had a decent plot since FE9, and FE10 was the bottom of the barrel for this series in writing quality.

Also, saying that reviving Michalis for no reason other than to revive an obviously dead character is a trend that started here is just wrong, considering FE2 Camus, FE4 Lewyn, FE7 Ninian, FE10 Zelgius, FE10 Oliver, and Elincia's uncle in RD kinda forgot his name exist. Speaking of Michalis, him surviving makes more sense from a narrative standpoint imo, since why bother bringing him back after his "death" in FE1 if you're just going to drop him as a plot point till the endgame anyway, and then have him die filling a role Gotoh could of easily filled.

Granted, I feel only FE 7 and FE 9 have decent plots while the rest are garbage for various reasons, and even both of those games start looking like swiss cheese when you look deeply into them.

I still feel if it wasn't for chapter 23, FE13 would have the best plot in the series, even if it's only decent at best with a chapter 23 written by people with competent writers

[Irysa]

Michalis is not the only example in FE12 though. The game went to lengths to make just about every single character from Archanea's history recruitable and playable (except for Boah lol), regardless of whether or not they were supposed to die or not exist. Michalis's death is also supposed to be his redemption point thematically, and it makes the scene where he talks to Marth really rather awkward in retrospect.

I mean you can recruit the entire Wolfguard for crying out loud.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Irysa

[Book of Ereshkigal]

Don't disagree with OP, but don't forget there was unused data for My Unit in Shadow Dragon. TBH, the subplot itself isn't utterly horrific, but I do feel it's there for Kris.

Edited November 15, 2015 by L95

[BrightBow]

It most certainly is the start of the current direction. We are not a single chapter in and we are already saved poor little Katarina and won her adoration. Then in the next chapter, we get Luke whose job is to make Chris look good by making an ass of himself trying to challenge his superiority. We can't just be friends these people. The game has to make it clear that we are stronger then them, smarter then them and just plain better then them:

Luke: Chris, I've heard rumors about you! Sir Jagen said that there was a recruit who stood out from the rest of us!

I mean, what other piece of media do you know that teaches the power of teamwork by having others fail to defeat the main character?

Rody: Because we didn't fight together. We took turns fighting Chris one-on-one. That's why we lost to him. (Yeah, that's exactly why you lost. Screw Ryan, right.)

And Marth himself has to play the male counterpart to Katarina, being painted as weak and vulnerable child that needs the protection of female Chris.

Elice: "The Hero King"... you say? It does seem that our people have grown fond of calling him that. But truth of the matter is that Marth... Marth is just a weak, vulnerable child...

...
Elice: In this cruel world, it will become increasingly difficult for him to continue to hold those ideals... Chris, if some day you should achieve knighthood... Please, protect him somehow and keep his ideals safe.

I regret having defended this game back in the day.

Edited November 15, 2015 by BrightBow

[Gradivus.]

It ultimately is a matter of what the later games make of this direction of the series. Changing it would have been for the best, but Awakening reinforced it; that's why I don't think there's a reason to put exclusive or special discredit for it on FE12, which had a more consistent plot than FE13 anyway.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Gradivus.

[BrightBow]

We have a shoehorned Avatar who is apparently Marth's amazing retcon friend that history forgot about. Kris goes as far as to jump into scenes like where Jagen confronts Lang.

History did not just forget about it, Chris allowed history to attribute his deeds to Marth. Because he is so wise that he could see the great picture and so modest that he happily forfeits any credit.

[spoiler=The exchange in question]

Marth:Thank you, Chris. For protecting and supporting me. No amount of thanks would be enough. But, among the people, your deeds are being told as things I've done alone... That just will not do. Once we return to the castle, I'll...

Chris: If you allow me, sire... I have no need for a name. I don't want stories to be told of me.

Marth:Chris...?

Chris:Sire. With this war now over, a hero will be needed. A hero called Prince Marth. There are still hostilities between people who have fought for so long. Those won't disappear easily. In order to have everyone's agreement, a king everyone recognizes-- a godlike hero is needed. And that hero must be you, sire, and you alone.

Marth: But then, what you've done so far will be...

Chris: Even if the world doesn't know, you do, sire, and that's enough for me. I shall stay by your side. I shall be your shadow.

Marth:Chris... You're... ...Why, I wonder? Ever since we met, I felt a special connection with you. Fate sent you to me... I can't help but think that. Thank you, Chris. Please stay with me. Chris, you're my other half, my true friend...

Awakening is one thing, seeing how it was a new story and a new setting. But the original Mystery of the Emblem is the Fire Emblem. I just can't comprehend how you can do something like this to your one creations, discrediting the accomplishments of your characters and attributing them instead to some soulless player self-insert.

Edited November 15, 2015 by BrightBow

[Radiant head]

It ultimately is a matter of what the later games make of this direction of the series. Changing it would have been for the best, but Awakening reinforced it; that's why I don't think there's a reason to put exclusive or special discredit for it on FE12, which had a more consistent plot than FE13 anyway.

Just seems like a consistent downward spiral, given how Corrin is handled now.

I feel like I'm the only person who wasn't that offended by Kris. I mean he's a badly designed "character" by all accounts, but I never got the sense that he took over the story the way Robin or Corrin did.

[B.Leu]

Oh yeah, Michalis, that guy who for some reason is redempted, but whatever.

Personally, I believe that FE10 was kinda the 'start of darkness' of the series plot-wise, no that bad though. It's at FE12 that it started to get out of hand with the start of MU and all of that. After that, it fully exploded in every single point. :/

Just in my opinion anyways.

Edited November 15, 2015 by B.Leu

[Jedi]

Granted, I feel only FE 7 and FE 9 have decent plots while the rest are garbage for various reasons, and even both of those games start looking like swiss cheese when you look deeply into them.

I still feel if it wasn't for chapter 23, FE13 would have the best plot in the series, even if it's only decent at best with a chapter 23 written by people with competent writers

You think FE7 has a good plot and ignore Thracia and fe8? And I fail to see how Awakening's plot is anywhere near decent after the Gangrel arc, its the prime example of a game who's plot you can ignore because the gameplay was solid enough.

[MCProductions]

^Well, for one, there's a difference between good and decent, good is PWAA and MGS3, decent is AJAA and MGS2. I will admit that on my first playthrough I thought SS had a good plotline, but on the second run I started noticing how bland everything felt whereas in FE7 I never notice this stuff while playing the game beyond a gameplay plot disconnect which the whole series is guilty of.

That said, different strokes for different folks, I never said FE7 or 9 had good plots, just decent ones. The only thing plotwise about the series that impresses me is how darker it is than most first party Nintendo games.

[Alazen]

- The scene with Lang is there to explicitly show that Chris doesn't have the kind of power that Marth (and to an extent, Jagen) does. You'll have to elaborate more why it is him getting shoehorned; I would agree if Lang would go defensive against Chris, but he has an easy time dismissing him, so this is not a plot inconsistency.

It was Jagen and Jagen alone who called out Lang for his behavior towards Marth in the closing talk of MotE Chapter 3. New Mystery has Kris do it first.

Another example is how Mystery had Marth propose passing through Adria Pass while New Mystery had Kris do it instead, complete with Marth praising Kris for the successful march through the mountains then quickly going on about how Kris being around gets him confidence if he's lost in his thoughts (Kris Shilling).

Those are called "shoehorning a character into established scenes". The second example stands out for shilling Kris even if doing so undermines Marth as a leader (at least).

- "Everything Michalis pulled" is being an antagonist in FE11 and FE12 just gives him more backstory/depth by proving that he isn't "evil" and was in fact manipulated in FE11. Why do you take issue with him surviving?

None of what's in your first sentence wasn't already established in MotE. Michalis surviving undermines what was his last scene with Marth (What, he needs Minerva to talk with him to figure he's not dying?), and ultimately brought nothing to warrant doing so. It's no better than World of Warcraft bringing back the likes of Muradin and Mal'Ganis.

And besides, if you're going to let Michalis live and have him either getting Medon's throne back or going on a conquest spree on another continent then you might as well let Hardin survive too. Except New Mystery doesn't. So...?

Edited November 16, 2015 by Alazen

[Gradivus.]

It was Jagen and Jagen alone who called out Lang for his behavior towards Marth in the closing talk of MotE Chapter 3. New Mystery has Kris do it first.

That doesn't mean that, in a realistic setting, Chris would not try to call out Lang (and obviously, fail) given he's Marth's royal guard. I just don't find the convo to end up being outstandingly wrong because he gets exactly the response he'd realistically get.

None of what's in your first sentence wasn't already established in MotE.

Irrelevant; just because it was pre-existent and done differently in FE3 doesn't mean it has to be the same in a remake.

Michalis surviving undermines what was his last scene with Marth

Nothing wrong with this.

(What, he needs Minerva to talk with him to figure he's not dying?)

Can't find a canon reason for it, but speculatively, maybe he needs to be encouraged by his ego when standing in front of Minerva or something weird, or it was just for gameplay reasons. Anyway, this by far isn't the first time a hard to understand (and somewhat minor) story component is present in FE.

and ultimately brought nothing to warrant doing so.

What makes you think that it would have been better to make Michalis die? Leaving FE3 aside because the devs are free to make changes to the script, what's the significant advantage of him dying compared to it not happening?

The only reason I can see for it is that it would seem to be more heroic if he died getting the starlight, but why wouldn't fighting to save Maria work as an act of redemption too? Given that FE12 aimed to make as many characters recruitable as possible (and does find somewhat logical reasons for it), it makes more sense to keep Michalis from dying in my view.

Another example is how Mystery had Marth propose passing through Adria Pass while New Mystery had Kris do it instead, complete with Marth praising Kris for the successful march through the mountains then quickly going on about how Kris being around gets him confidence if he's lost in his thoughts (Kris Shilling).

Conceding this part.

TL;DR FE12 still has a much better plot than FE13, despite its number of flaws and is the source of only one of FE13's many plot issues. It "starting a precedent for shoehorned Avatars" really fails to excuse the things Awakening additionally did wrong, such as the gimmick-based characters and the lack of backstory for villains, which are entirely unrelated to FE12 MU.

It ultimately is a matter of what the later games make of this direction of the series. Changing it would have been for the best, but Awakening reinforced it; that's why I don't think there's a reason to put exclusive or special discredit for it on FE12, which had a more consistent plot than FE13 anyway.

Since you ignored these parts (my main response to the topic, actually, the rest is just about justifying vs criticizing minor examples), what's your answer to this?

Edited November 16, 2015 by Gradivus.

[Phantom037]

What makes you think that it would have been better to make Michalis die? Leaving FE3 aside because the devs are free to make changes to the script, what's the significant advantage of him dying compared to it not happening?

Michalis' entire character in SD revolved around being too naive and headstrong in his beliefs, and his "death" was supposed to be the moment he realized the error of his ways and bring his arc to a close. Kind of belittled when he survives. I can see why Marth becomes more naive in between games when all the good guys he thought died ended up doing the exact opposite. At least Basilio in FE13 had some form of foreshadowing to his faked death.

[Irysa]

Irrelevant; just because it was pre-existent and done differently in FE3 doesn't mean it has to be the same in a remake.

Things don't have to be the same in a remake, but one would generally hope that any changes would be improvements.

Most of the narrative changes definitely do not fall into this category, and at best they tend to be neutral.

[Jave]

The saddest part is, gameplay wise, FE12 is a fantastic game. The map design is pretty good (ONLY exception: Chapter 3 and its awful "Go around the block" detour, and some of the gaidens for being really compressed and dull), the various levels of difficulty are great, and the interface and controls are very smooth. From a purely gameplay standpoint, FE12 is one of the best.

It's just too bad that Kris ruins everything else. The way he retcons everything about Marth's tale is just sickening, and it doesn't help the dialogue is so sloppily written, like in the exchanges Brightbow posted (maybe something got lost in translation here since the game only exists fan translated, but it can't be that different).

I think Kris might be my least favorite FE character ever. I don't hate him/her as he/she is in-game, but the whole concept of the character is just terrible. I don't mind Avatar characters, as long as they're kept into new entries and not remakes.

[Radiant head]

I'm really curious if an official localization would change anything.

Now that Fates is getting sold out like no tomorrow and Marth has kept a lot of relevancy thanks to Smash, it would be really nice to get localization/3DS port of this game.

[Jave]

I would definitely buy FE12 if it were officially released, since as I said it's a great game in terms of gameplay.

It would do nothing on my perception of Kris, though, as he's the only FE character in the whole series I hate purely on concept.

[Shrouded In Myth]

It most certainly is the start of the current direction. We are not a single chapter in and we are already saved poor little Katarina and won her adoration. Then in the next chapter, we get Luke whose job is to make Chris look good by making an ass of himself trying to challenge his superiority. We can't just be friends these people. The game has to make it clear that we are stronger then them, smarter then them and just plain better then them:

Luke: Chris, I've heard rumors about you! Sir Jagen said that there was a recruit who stood out from the rest of us!

I mean, what other piece of media do you know that teaches the power of teamwork by having others fail to defeat the main character?

Rody: Because we didn't fight together. We took turns fighting Chris one-on-one. That's why we lost to him. (Yeah, that's exactly why you lost. Screw Ryan, right.)

I really hate that this happened. Like in the higher difficulties Luke and Rody are far more powerful than Ryan and Kris and the only reason the player even has a chance of winning is because they don't even charge at your units at the same time. In order to beat them you have to take advantage of this and use both Kris and Ryan as a team.

It would've been amazing if the game acknowledged this with Rody saying something like "Individually we're both much stronger than Kris or Ryan, but we lost since we didn't work as a team and they did."

That would of been a very clever way to merge gameplay and story.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Shrouded In Myth

[Shrouded In Myth]

Edit: double post sorry

Edited November 18, 2015 by Shrouded In Myth

[The DanMan]

I would gladly put money down for a $15 e-shop release of the game.

However, here's how I see things: FE12 planted the seeds, FE13 sprouted them, and FE14 put them in full bloom. Hopefully Western reaction to FE14 sprays some pesticide on it.

[Radiant head]

wouldnt hold your breath - see how fates keeps getting sold out.

[-Cynthia-]

Lots of Kris hate going on in this thread. I didn't really like the Avatar scenes or the assassins subplot(and they were pretty unnecessary), but I didn't feel FE3 had a great story in the first place. It rehashes the first game too much(yay we get to liberate Altea from an evil empire again, Elice gets captured again etc.). It rehashes to the point where Gharnef and Medeus are once again the villains without adding anything of interest to them. Michalis randomly surviving was already brought up, Camus also does it too and apparently everyone is fooled by a mask. It has an overcrowded cast since they felt the need to jam every member of the soulless Shadow Dragon cast in here as well as add some more people with no personality.

It gets a lot of passes because it's a remake and the story is a little better than Shadow Dragon's(and does away with silly gaiden requirements), but there are still big problems IMO.

[Irysa]

I think Elice being captured again sort of makes sense given Gharnef is using ressurection based magic (Aum) to bring back Medeus, but I can equally see the opposite argument that it's lame to have her be captured again. It's also slightly confusing that Lena is a candidate for the ressurection magic when she can't use it in FE1/Book 1/FE11 due to not being a Princess*. That problem seems to be more of a result of not wanting to have to come up with an unfamiliar character who can heal Medeus and get in your way, since having familiar faces fighting against you is a common situation in Book 2.

In fact I'd say that's kind of the point of the rehashing in many aspects; getting you to face your former allies. Marth's (and the player's) disbelief that Hardin would be doing such things will be in unison because you're somewhat familiar with him, and it's also great to see the disrepancies between different prior allies you had. Jeorge can't stand Lang and gives orders not to attack the Altean army unless they attack first/enter their attack range. He also expresses deep regret at what the Archanean army has become, going so far to describe them as hired thugs. Astram has his usual near fanatical zeal in blind dedication to Nyna and can't be recruited until later on in the game. Abel chooses Est over Altea (which then leads into the controversial Est leaving ending), and initially Roshea was the only Wolfguard who sided with you, whilst the others had absoloute loyalty to Hardin till the end because of how he freed them in the past. Boah dies in the midst of a rebellion Midia staged against Hardin, and Hardin's fall to the Darksphere along with his small redemptive death quote makes him an example of a classic tragic villain. Hardin's dying words are potent in how they express how his most powerful emotions, his love of Nyna, were twisted into how he became a monster. That is, the root of his evil was in something we would view as good, his devotion to her, and it was still profound to the moment of his death.

Also I disagree that Medeus did not have anything of interested added to him. The entire history of how the Earth Dragons came to hate humans and a lot of the general history of Archanea are unveiled in FE3.

It's definitely not perfect, but then again, Radiant Dawn tried to utilise the same basic idea and IMO did it much worse.

*IRC the only mention of her nobility in FE3 is in her character description, which also mentions she ran away from a marriage. Also I think Aum is Elice locked in FE3 anyway, can Maria even use it?

Edited November 19, 2015 by Irysa