Jump to content

I hope Archers get a buff in this game.


Recommended Posts

Which is of course why you didn't actually mention FE12 on the off chance that, I dunno, the person you were talking to hadn't actually played it (News flash. Hadn't) and only mentioned FE6/7/8.

I thought it would be a given that I wanted javelins, hand axes, AND short bows to have lower (2-3) MT. I mentioned FE6/7/8 to show you how much a single item can change how you play a Fire Emblem, and FE7 is likely the most played FE and thus the best one to point out examples from. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough, but ask me to clarify before you accuse me of being an idiot, as it's unbecoming and immature to do that in a debate.

Yes, Which means that while they gave you a Range 1 option, they didn't overshadow an archers main weapon type/job making bows still a completely viable and indeed useful alternative

They would've been better if they scaled with STR (and obviously lowered their base MT to compensate), because they're rather niche and quickly outscaled by normal bows; the best crossbow is barely more MT than a mildly forged Steel Bow on a base Shinon. The fact that they didn't scale...at all...bothered the hell out of me. If they never come back, I'll only be too happy.

Considering I don't play for speed it's funny you mention speed play, growths don't mean jack if your low bases kill them and 20/-- Neimi has 12 strength, At 20/10S the average even a regular speed character will hit, she will have 20, and be range locked. will is pretty much the same except 15 strength at 20/-- and is prety much the same at 20/10, Rebecca HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, Dorothy gets the bonus of FE6's huge promotion games, which still doesn't invalidate her terrible weapon choice.

So...again, I don't get this. I mentioned that they have low bases and high growths, and then you say I'm wrong because...they have low bases and high growths. And then it ends by talking about how bad bows are.

So, let me make sure my point is clear: Most people on SF don't like many early-game archers because they have poor bases and have worse EP offense on FE games where EP is king. They actually do have some of the best offense growths in the game, and are good statistically as you approach the higher levels...it's just that you only approach these levels later in the game. Ryan is actually decent in FE12 because PP and avoiding counters is more important and bows are awesome on dracoknight- and wyvern-heavy chapters (triple MT on all fliers GOOO~).

Also, I'm having a hard time reading parts of this because the grammar is kind of poor, namely this section: "At 20/10S the average even a regular speed character will hit, she will have 20, and be range locked. will is pretty much the same except 15 strength at 20/-- and is prety much the same at 20/10, Rebecca HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA".

Bases mean more than growths even on slow play.

Never said otherwise, only that the faster you go, the better and more vital good bases become. They're always important.

EDIT: Lumi, Dorothy is easily worse than Shin, but that's not saying much, since Shin is essentially Dorothy if she came 3 chapters later but got HM bonuses and a horse; not very many characters in general compete with Shin in FE6. HM bonuses are ridiculous and instantly boost the hell of any character that gets them.

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 111
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Have you ever tried throwing a sword? Like, REALLY tried. Yes. It is impossible, I'm not talking difficult, I'm saying that unless you literally trained your entire life to throw a SINGLE sword, you would not be able to throw one effectively. They are not knives.

Who said it had to be effective? Clubbing someone with a bow isn't effective.

And it is not at all comparable to making a snap shot with a bow. Keep in mind I'm not talking about clubbing people with bows, that's stupid.

That's what Narga said. That the bow user could use their bow as a club.

it would be just as effective as priests hitting with staffs. It's not about the magical appearance of a weapon in your hand. it's about "Axes and Javelins are actual throwing weapons, swords are not" hence why any 1-2 range sword has to be 'magical' in some capacity.

If archers can club enemies with their bows, myrmidons can throw their swords. In the first case, they'll deal practically no damage, in the second, they'll have practically no accuracy.

HA! That's a good one, Archers with good growths. You know for a second there, I was maybe thinking about taking you seriously. Then I forgot how absolutely obsessed with Archers you are.The only one for a second who can be considered to have good growths, is Rolf.

Not really. Dorothy has good growths; so does Neimi. Klein has extremely good growths for a prepromoted unit. FE9 Shinon has amazing growths.

Also, I have to say that if anyone here is coming off as an "idiot" that shouldn't be taken seriously, it's you, not KoT.

Edited by Anouleth
Link to comment
Share on other sites

EDIT: Lumi, Dorothy is easily worse than Shin, but that's not saying much, since Shin is essentially Dorothy if she came 3 chapters later but got HM bonuses and a horse; not very many characters in general compete with Shin in FE6. HM bonuses are ridiculous and instantly boost the hell of any character that gets them.

Well duh, the point I was trying to illustrate is that Dorothy's bases /really/ hurt her even in a game where bows don't suck, where Shin has manly-ass bases and despite being bowlocked until promotion he remains a solid combat unit, the horse only serves to make it better.

Dorothy's growths are honestly quite good. She was fairly useful on my female-only run due to my shortage of combat unit thus heightening her own exposure to enemies, where it allowed her growths to kick in faster. She even has decent con as far as female archers go, but when your bases are outclassed by a unit 2 levels lower than you, same weapon type, with a horse to boot, there's a problem.

Edited by Luminescent Blade
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Who said it had to be effective? Clubbing someone with a bow isn't effective.

That's what Narga said. That the bow user could use their bow as a club.

If archers can club enemies with their bows, myrmidons can throw their swords. In the first case, they'll deal practically no damage, in the second, they'll have practically no accuracy.

Not really. Dorothy has good growths; so does Neimi. Klein has extremely good growths for a prepromoted unit. FE9 Shinon has amazing growths.

I'm not agreeing with Narga though. So I have no idea why you continue to argue this point with me.

I said archers, as in limited TO archers. Shinons worthless in FE9 cause LOLBASES on Chapter 17 while promoted. Kleins not worthless at all (and I didn't call him worthless).

And KoT my point was even with their good growths their bases only mean they'll amount to 'average' with a shit weapon type. Where as other units being raised to 20/10 will kick the shit out of them.

Another problem with bows in FE10 is that there's so very little to take advantage of, since Draco's don't have Bow weakness anymore (...why?!) but they also get a bonus in ledges. making them very useful on high terrain. Especially since they can longbow down and get the increased hit bonus.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well duh, the point I was trying to illustrate is that Dorothy's bases /really/ hurt her even in a game where bows don't suck, where Shin has manly-ass bases and despite being bowlocked until promotion he remains a solid combat unit, the horse only serves to make it better.

Being bow locked in FE6 is not a flaw. I would prefer a bow locked unit to a unit who was lance-locked or axe-locked, especially for a unit who joins in Chapter 9.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are there even lancelocked units in FE6? But I can agree with Axelock, especially if said unit has low skill. Hell, I love Echidna for (both her personality and) her relatively accurate axing, but there are times where I just went "fuck it" and threw her a killing edge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are there even lancelocked units in FE6? But I can agree with Axelock, especially if said unit has low skill. Hell, I love Echidna for (both her personality and) her relatively accurate axing, but there are times where I just went "fuck it" and threw her a killing edge.

Armor Knights. But they suck for PLENTY of reasons more than being Lance Locked.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not agreeing with Narga though. So I have no idea why you continue to argue this point with me.

Well, Narga said something, and then I responded, and then you attacked my response, and I defended my response. Without the proper context of what I was responding to, I can't defend my response because it doesn't make sense without context. And clearly, you didn't read it, or you wouldn't have attacked my response. So I explained the context behind my response. I am not arguing with anyone, except Narga, and it's you that butted in without reading it.

I said archers, as in limited TO archers. Shinons worthless in FE9 cause LOLBASES on Chapter 17 while promoted. Kleins not worthless at all (and I didn't call him worthless).

I said that Shinon has good growths. Are you objecting to that? Because it's obviously correct.

I don't think I ever said that Klein was worthless, and I never said that you called him that, so I really don't know what you're talking about.

And KoT my point was even with their good growths their bases only mean they'll amount to 'average' with a shit weapon type. Where as other units being raised to 20/10 will kick the shit out of them.

And KoT's point was that Archers tend to have poor bases. So it looks like you agree with him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, Narga said something, and then I responded, and then you attacked my response, and I defended my response. Without the proper context of what I was responding to, I can't defend my response because it doesn't make sense without context. And clearly, you didn't read it, or you wouldn't have attacked my response. So I explained the context behind my response. I am not arguing with anyone, except Narga, and it's you that butted in without reading it.

I said that Shinon has good growths. Are you objecting to that? Because it's obviously correct.

I don't think I ever said that Klein was worthless, and I never said that you called him that, so I really don't know what you're talking about.

And KoT's point was that Archers tend to have poor bases. So it looks like you agree with him.

No I'm not objecting to Shinon having good growths, because I wasn't talking about Snipers, I was talking about Archers. why are you bringing up the Snipers when I was talking about the archers?

No KoTs point was "Archers have poor bases, but their great growths make them awesome in slow play" my point is "They have poor bases, and their growths make them mediocre in slow play"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wil's 40% speed growth is actually the same as Lucius' and Eliwood's speed growths. And I've seen people here harp about how bad Eliwood's bases are, and that Lucius has an amazing speed base for his level. Wil's strength growth is good, and his strength base is decent, if I recall correctly. Wil doesn't have bad GROWTHS, it's his bases on top of being a bow-locked archer in FE7 that hurts him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that just as regular units get handaxes and such that are as weak as iron weapons , that archers should get an 1-2 range bow to match . They should also get an fe4 style canto feature is their mystery skill allowing them to back off after using better weapons and switch to the 1-2 range bow for enemy phase.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No I'm not objecting to Shinon having good growths, because I wasn't talking about Snipers, I was talking about Archers. why are you bringing up the Snipers when I was talking about the archers?

Both snipers AND archers in FE tend to have good growths. Even prepromote archers in GBA tend to have at least decent growths or those that are considered exceptional by prepromote standards.

No KoTs point was "Archers have poor bases, but their great growths make them awesome in slow play" my point is "They have poor bases, and their growths make them mediocre in slow play"

More like "GBA archers become better when not in LTC play, where they get more time to level up and their poor bases become less relevant." When you can level them, they're actually quite good statistically by end-game.

I honestly think Wil and Rebecca get too bad of a rap for their bad to mediocre early-game performance because you can hit minimum or near minimum theoretical turn counts on most early game chapters with just Marcus and 2-3 other characters to break snags or pick off occasional enemies, and because many early FE7 maps have multiple routes, so you simply choose grunts you'll never train to go help Marcus sweep one route while training the characters you want to use on the other. But I don't feel like beating a horse long since kicked to death on these forums, so I'll leave it at that.

EDIT: Here's to hoping for a Ronan-esque archer in FE13, except with growths that actually made sense. That guy's fun as hell to use.

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania
Link to comment
Share on other sites

FE7 is a pretty terrible game to have a bowlock though

If you want to have bowlock do it in FE6 or FE12 hell FE4 is passable thanks to the AI but FE7 is bad for it

Edited by Luminescent Blade
Link to comment
Share on other sites

FE7 is a pretty terrible game to have a bowlock though

Oh no, FE7 is bad for bowlock; as I mentioned earlier in the thread, HHM's philosophy is SPAM MORE MEDIOCRE UNITS GOOOO, which puts a large emphasis on EP. The only FE worse than FE7 in that sense that I can think of is FE8.

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania
Link to comment
Share on other sites

WTA at 2 range for bows. Not as a sole solution, but it helps out your archers and makes dealing with enemy archers a bit more involved (especially behind walls and stuff where you can only attack them at 2 range). Also it expands their niche a bit, so that they're the best units for taking down javelin/hand axe/magic using enemies: -15 hit really hurts when you're already dealing with hand axe accuracy :D

and then give them WTD at one range since you shouldn't be letting them get hit up close anyway

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WTA at 2 range for bows. Not as a sole solution, but it helps out your archers and makes dealing with enemy archers a bit more involved (especially behind walls and stuff where you can only attack them at 2 range). Also it expands their niche a bit, so that they're the best units for taking down javelin/hand axe/magic using enemies: -15 hit really hurts when you're already dealing with hand axe accuracy :D

and then give them WTD at one range since you shouldn't be letting them get hit up close anyway

I haven't actually played your last demo, but does the WTA also extend to magic units also? Or do archers only get the advantage over the regular physical weapons?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, Narga said something, and then I responded, and then you attacked my response, and I defended my response. Without the proper context of what I was responding to, I can't defend my response because it doesn't make sense without context. And clearly, you didn't read it, or you wouldn't have attacked my response. So I explained the context behind my response. I am not arguing with anyone, except Narga, and it's you that butted in without reading it.

I didn't just suggest wacking people with your bow, I also suggested punching if you don't like it. Another person suggested giving them shivs or knives for countering, and I'd agree with that, too. The main point, here, is that they should do something other than stand there like an idiot when they get attacked on enemy phase, just because it would make sense. Similarly, if a unit breaks a sword/lance/axe/tome and has no weapons, they also shouldn't stand around like idiots. Either give everyone a dual-equip feature that has unbreakable knives (weak, like 2 to 4 mt) as a back-up weapon to pull out when they have no other weapons or have them all punch people. Whatever, just let people do something other than stand around and get chopped at.

@BwdYeti, As for wta I agree that arrows should have an advantage over some units at 2 range, but I'd think that any unit with a shield should have WTA against the arrows and anyone without a shield should have WTD, or something like that. However, I think that should only apply to the attack with the arrow. It makes little sense for the hand axe counter, or the magic counter, to have WTD against an archer. It's not like they can twirl their bow in order to make that hand axe/javelin/spell less likely to hit than someone holding an axe against an axe/lance against a javelin.

Edited by Narga_Rocks
Link to comment
Share on other sites

More like "GBA archers become better when not in LTC play, where they get more time to level up and their poor bases become less relevant." When you can level them, they're actually quite good statistically by end-game.

incorrect

in casual play you have 8 units who wreck everything at 1-2 range and your archer is derping around for half the game because he can't do anything

archers are (relatively) the best in LTC play because they meet that very specific combat role that tends to be lacking

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh no, FE7 is bad for bowlock; as I mentioned earlier in the thread, HHM's philosophy is SPAM MORE MEDIOCRE UNITS GOOOO, which puts a large emphasis on EP. The only FE worse than FE7 in that sense that I can think of is FE8.

Which means that Wil and Becca doesn't get used by many not only because of bad bases but why have bowlock when you can have not bowlock in which case their bad rep is justified since their weapon type is just so not up to par

Hell people probably only use Louise because she makes Pent even better and Pent is the manliest of men

I mean yeah people use them if they like them as characters, that's why I use Dorothy after all and FE6 doesn't even hate bows, but they're stuck with terrible bases in a game that's really bad to have a bowlock in so

Edited by Luminescent Blade
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Difference? It's entirely possible if you're a snap shot to get off a close range shot with an arrow. INCREDIBLY difficult but entirely possible. Swords are not made for throwing, unless they are. In fact the best throwing weapon in history are axes, most easily caught as well.

Regardless, One of two things need to happen to keep an archer viable

1. They must be able to attack at range 1

2. They must be so good at killing dudes that the lack of an enemy phase does not hinder them at all.

Either would work, but the way it stands FE gives you an archer and s/he's the worst unit to field, bad bases, bad growths, weak weapon. Bench Fodder. Whether that range 1 is a dedicated knife sub weapon, or crossbows, or an accuracy penalty at range 1, or they can only counter at range 1. Or that they let loose an arrow and the enemy goes 'splat' which is pretty much the case Shinon and Klein make as being good snipers (See that dude? he's no longer on the field.)

Either must happen, because otherwise they will be used until they get to promotion, then get ponies with swords. if you even bother. As it stands, Armor Knights and Archers are the classes that IntSys need a lot of help making better (not so much the latter in FE10, due to all the different bows)

While this is true for armor Knights in alot of games. In FE10, Armor knights were awesome. Remember Gatrie the Battle god?

Edited by Emperor Hardin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

However, I think that should only apply to the attack with the arrow. It makes little sense for the hand axe counter, or the magic counter, to have WTD against an archer. It's not like they can twirl their bow in order to make that hand axe/javelin/spell less likely to hit than someone holding an axe against an axe/lance against a javelin.
I am not sure how having an axe out makes javelins less likely to hit (or hand axe vs javelin, any justifications for the weapon triangle based on 1 range just fall apart), but okay sure. Could just chalk it up to bowmen being trained/having learned how to take advantage of ranged combat, and a weapon designed for it helping them put more pressure on the enemy. The suggestion is much more based on balance and flavor than realism, and for gameplay the WTD for the enemy is much more important than the WTA anyway. Bow guys generally have enough accuracy they don't really need the 15 more, and 1 damage is okay since they'll probably double but not a huge bonus, but cutting the enemy's hit is very nice when you have a unit that usually doesn't have to deal with counters at all :M

Although the hit bonus would help if there were some system for rewarding getting over 100 hit \o_O/

@Klok: yeah, at 2 range it's all WTA all the time. The only case where they don't have WTA in 2 range combat is against another bow unit

Link to comment
Share on other sites

incorrect

in casual play you have 8 units who wreck everything at 1-2 range and your archer is derping around for half the game because he can't do anything

archers are (relatively) the best in LTC play because they meet that very specific combat role that tends to be lacking

Well, from personal experience, Rebecca on casual/ranked is usually starting to double slower enemies by C13x and a decent portion of enemies by C17 and actually starts to have decent offense by that point. And hell, before C17, it's not like Lowen/Eliwood/Bartre/Dorcas are exactly stealing the show -- Hector and Guy (w/ HHM bonuses) are, but still. It's like saying archers aren't good in casual because every growth unit becomes comparatively better with more levels, but the archers with 40-50% growth rates in STR/SKL/SPD are going to see more from the levels than say, Lowen's 30% offensive growths. Units like Raven and Sain are going to rape enemies almost as hard on LTC as they will on casual just because they seem to be made from the pure essence of awesome; does it really matter how badly you ORKO most generic enemies?

In short, if Rebecca/Wil are somehow not contributing a good bit to offense by C20-23 on casual play, which is around the middle of the game, RNG shit on your face, and hard.

Obviously I'm citing only FE7, but it's one of the worst cases for bows FE-wise and almost every other installment has a better case for them, so...

@ Lumi: People usually presume no chance that either will be trained as if it's physically impossible to do so and then usually assume them being underleveled in many comparisons I've seen. I'm not saying their bases aren't meh or that they're hardly in the best FE for bows in general, but their offense after Dragon's Gate gives you a Killer and Brave Bow gets pretty nice, provided you actually train them. It's far from MARCUS, LORD OF THE GODS, REND THIS UNIVERSE! tier, but notably better than the 0/10s people seem to give, especially provided Bartre and his LOLOLOL 2 AS somehow gets 2-3/10.

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania
Link to comment
Share on other sites

While this is true for armor Knights in alot of games. In FE10, Armor knights were awesome. Remember Gatrie the Battle god?

Seeing as he's stomping an iron boot in Micaiahs face and I'm just reloading the state because it's hilarious? yes I do.

Then again FE10 realized the mistake FE4 and to a lesser extent 6 made.

For the love of god if your going to have big maps don't give your armored unit such terrible move!

Honestly though I would bump all armors to the same move as regular infantry while keeping their terrain disadvantages. It doesn't make much sense to me because, yes heavy armor is heavy and harder to move in, if you haven't been trained in it. I think of AKs like Medieval Knights in Plate Mail, yeah to us that shit would be unbelievably heavy but they pretty much went from birth being used to that armor, I would assume it's similar for many AKs in may games, it's not an easy job to do.

Using FE6 as an example, Wendy would take a movement hit, but Bors and Barth would not, since they have been trained in the use of the armor, while Wendy has just put it on. They would still suffer in desert/forest etc. because the terrain is ill suited, but I see no reason why they shouldn't have 5 move same as everyone else. It doesn't mitigate all their problems in every game, but it does let them see more use.

Also Brom, your my disarmer, stop LUNAing Everything and making me waste Javelins/Short Spears/Hand Axes etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyone's trainable, even Wendy or Sophia if you're willing to spend 1000 turns feeding them kills

But range lock does severely hamper their exp gains wherease Bartre can at least counter a loldier at any position rather than just at the furthest range if said loldier has a javelin

So yeah they likely wouldn't be getting levels all that quickly unless a lot of favouritism

I've tried training Becca a few times but decided that she really wasn't worth my efforts, Eliwood is one terrible unit I have to deal with already and I want Geitz so I have to deal with him

I mean if you like them go ahead and use but FE7 is just really not that forgiving to low-base archers

At least they're more usable than say, Wallace or something

Poor guy he's hilarious but he's just so useless in HHM :

Maybe I'll do a girls only run of HHM though, Becca could see some use there.

Edited by Luminescent Blade
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...