Large Map GBA Hack

[Shadowflare]

So, I really like big maps. Like, really like big maps. And I was thinking, why not try to make a full on custom, except with giant maps? I'm not exactly sure of the exact tile limit (although I am sticking to 1500 max), but I'd thought it'd be fun, especially with the world map feature in FE8, to try to literally create the continent from scratch, then have it come to life via the individual chapters.

I haven't really done much yet, nor do I have much experience, but I'm pretty darn psyched by this idea so...

Thoughts? Feasibility?

~Shadowflare :)

[Arch]

That sounds basically like FE4's approach. I think it'd be pretty interesting to see an original hack built around that concept. It'd require a significant amount of mapping - but if you're invested in the idea and see it through, you'll have a really great starting point for your hack.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Arch

[Sadisticorc]

Not a hacker, but I have heard that the FE8 playable world map is hard to work with. You might want to look into that.

Also, this might be helpful http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=25878

It has some example maps (of the average size variety) as well as a few tutorials a few posts down (outdoor maps on the 12th post, indoor maps on the 2nd or 3rd page, too lazy to check). If you want a playtester down the line, I can help if you're interested. Best of luck, and don't be afraid to look around the site for more utilities :)

[Klokinator]

(although I am sticking to 1500 max)

You'll have to explain what you meant by this. 1500x1500 maps? Completely and 100% not doable in GBA romhacking. Not to mention making such a map is completely a waste of time and energy.

Now, if you meant something else (I don't know how to take '1500 max') then it might be doable. GBA has a limit to how big maps can be, though I don't recall what that exact tile limit is, and it also has a limit as to how many units in each team can be on the map.

As far as I know, you definitely can't go past 100x100 tiles in GBA, and I think 64x64 might(?) be the biggest possible. Afaik the map in Sacred Contention was really large, and FE4A had some ASM or other shenanigans it used for its big maps, but again I'm not a big romhacker.

FEXp, maybe you could do it, but the slowdown would be intense. FEXNA, you could do as big as 100x100, and bigger if need be, but there would be a slowdown noticeable by the point a certain number of units are on the map. My own tests for Sacred Contention 2 with 150ish enemy units notes a slight slowdown, and I'm sure if I kept adding more there would definitely be more of an impact. Essentially, the bigger the map, the greater the slowdown, and in the case of romhacking, the less it becomes doable.

Oh and if by 1500 you meant a world map image of 1500x1500, it's probably doable in GBA, easily doable in FEXNA but you're still asking for a lot of work creatively. I hope you'll have the drive to complete it :)

Edited August 17, 2015 by Klokky-Kuuuun!

[Arch]

FE4A had some ASM or other shenanigans it used for its big maps, but again I'm not a big romhacker.

Nope, those maps were all within the "legal limits." The tile limit is large enough to more or less fit FE4's prologue map.

Keeping in mind that was FE7, though. I wonder if the tile limit changed at all in the transition to FE8?

Edited August 17, 2015 by Arch

[Klokinator]

From what we know, wouldn't any restrictions actually have been lessened in the transition from FE6/7 to FE8?

[MCProductions]

While I'm not that experienced of a rom hacker, I will note that mapping was my least favorite part of rom hacking, and that it pretty much put my own project on life support.

Large maps require a lode of time to make, so you will need to be really determined to pull this off. I'm rooting for you at least, and I'm always open for playtesting if you need a tester.

As for the tile limit, unless my memory is tricking me again, I remember seeing a 100x100 map in a FE 8 hack I played a long while back. Now this was quite a few months ago, so take this with a grain of salt.

[Arch]

From what we know, wouldn't any restrictions actually have been lessened in the transition from FE6/7 to FE8?

Well, FE6 actually has an absurdly large tile limit. It can kinda handle huge maps.

Wow that vid is 7 years old and I remember when Blazer first posted it. Someone just put me in a nursing home already.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Arch

[MCProductions]

Holy-

Well, it's good to know that when I do get back to my project, the game I was planning on hacking can support the crap I'd put it thru.

[CT075]

the largest map in fe7 and fe8 is 43x36 and the largest map in fe6 is 81x60 iirc

note that it isn't actually based on number of tiles; it costs more memory to insert an extra row than an extra column (and thus you could probably handle like 40x40 map or sth idk exact numbers)

[Sadisticorc]

When it comes to the number of units causing slowdown, wouldn't Shadowflare be able to get around that via reinforcements? Like, after a certain number of enemy units are killed (or if going the FE4 route, after a village/castle is siezed), more units spawn, thus preventing the slowdown due to unit overload? Just an idea.

[Shadowflare]

Not a hacker, but I have heard that the FE8 playable world map is hard to work with. You might want to look into that.

Also, this might be helpful http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=25878

It has some example maps (of the average size variety) as well as a few tutorials a few posts down (outdoor maps on the 12th post, indoor maps on the 2nd or 3rd page, too lazy to check). If you want a playtester down the line, I can help if you're interested. Best of luck, and don't be afraid to look around the site for more utilities :)

I realize what I'm up for.

You'll have to explain what you meant by this. 1500x1500 maps? Completely and 100% not doable in GBA romhacking. Not to mention making such a map is completely a waste of time and energy.

Ehhhh, no. Like, 1500 tiles. so like, 15x100. Like, area of the map. I lack the patience really to make anything bigger than 30 x 30 though.

the largest map in fe7 and fe8 is 43x36 and the largest map in fe6 is 81x60 iirc

note that it isn't actually based on number of tiles; it costs more memory to insert an extra row than an extra column (and thus you could probably handle like 40x40 map or sth idk exact numbers)

Yeah, I read that somewhere. Like, say, if you were going for like, a 35x35 map, how many are you put in. That's actually my main concern, cause I mean, if I can only stick like, one map in, then ehhh, :/.

When it comes to the number of units causing slowdown, wouldn't Shadowflare be able to get around that via reinforcements? Like, after a certain number of enemy units are killed (or if going the FE4 route, after a village/castle is siezed), more units spawn, thus preventing the slowdown due to unit overload? Just an idea.

^ Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Have like, 10 dudes at the start, then like, 5 more over 5 turns or something.

I mean, I've been using Yeti's map maker thing, but when I get down to events and basically everything, I'm still kinda lost. I've only been doing this for like, 3 months. I'm still mainly figuring out how I can make the world map and the maps work in conjunction. If you guys have any other... basic tips or advice, I'd be glad to hear em. Forgive me if I sound noobish, but eh, tbh, I am a noob xD.

Anyways, thanks for all the support guys. I'm actually really glad you guys like it. I guess, no matter how hard it gets, I'll pull through. I know that mapping's not a walk in the park, but hey, I decided I wanted to try making something focused on the maps themselves, and create a riveting plot. I write for fun A LOT, so I mean, I just kinda want my ideas on paper coming to life, on the game I guess.

Also, I was wondering if it's possible to transfer tilesets from FE6 and 7 into FE8? Like, I've read Blazer's tutorial on tilesets, but it's still kinda confusing. If I can input different tilesets, what kind of maps would you guys like to see? Like, I'll vary the landscape of course, but like, do you guys want a game full of gimmicky maps, with surprises (but not the ragefest kind) or do you guys want like, a normal no fuss fire emblem except with the big map gimmick.

FYI: I have never used Mappy or Tiled, or have any other experience with FE Hacking other than some Nightmare shenanigans. No ASM, no portraits, no nothing. I've been downloading things as I spot them on the forums, but I mean, I'm still new to this. And I use Windows 8.1 :/

Cheers

~Shadowflare

Edited August 17, 2015 by Shadowflare

[CT075]

you can insert as many huge maps as you want into the game and it'll run fine as long as they're not actually too big for the engine to handle one at a time (ie 43x36)

[Shadowflare]

Thats a relief, cause I thought you would be severely limited if your maps were big. Another thing. It is possible to break the 50 unit enemy cap somehow right?

[MCProductions]

Tho I've yet to test it my self, the Ragefest 4 submission Emblem Warriors has a crapton of enemies on screen for nearly the whole chapter.

I'm not sure if it breaks 50 or not, but that submission would be an easy way to get an idea of how many enemies can be on the map at once.

[Klokinator]

Thats a relief, cause I thought you would be severely limited if your maps were big. Another thing. It is possible to break the 50 unit enemy cap somehow right?

Yes. Use FEXP or FEXNA once they're out. You can't break the limit for enemies in GBA.

[Shadowflare]

Yes. Use FEXP or FEXNA once they're out. You can't break the limit for enemies in GBA.

Right, sure.

So guess I'm just gonna get Mappy first and mess around a bit? Or can I use Yeti' mapmaker?

Edited August 18, 2015 by Shadowflare

[Arch]

Technically you can hack the save data to expand space allotted to particular factions for unit memory. So yes, it's possible in GBA Klok's just talking out his butt to say XNA is better (which yes, it is but also not available to the public yet). Obviously it's easier to use an engine that already has this enabled by default. FEXP is not recommended to use at all, it's incomplete.

But if you pace the enemy deployment well enough you shouldn't need more than 50 at once. I don't think FE4 ever had that many enemies on the map.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Arch

[MrNight48]

As someone who keeps trying to make big map chapters a thing, The hardest part is not the map changes or even designing it right, its designing solid gameplay with the behemoth and no bugs. Moving units to their next engagement can be boring if not planned correctly while at the same time, most battles end up in specific points that clearly shout to the player " WASTED SPACES OVER HERE AND THERE!" Not to mention you can't really just boost units movement because it can make the player ask "why not just do this in a smaller map?"

So with these weak points in mind, Let's talk about big maps strengths.

- Far more ideal for ambush spawning

In a tight map, ambush spawns can be down right bullshit but in a huge map, the enemies have to walk a big ass map too which gives the player some time to prepare for them better depending on if you time the ambush right.

- Flying units become king

With the bonus of quickly moving through all terrain, even a useless flying unit becomes useful.

- Siege Weapons become more fair

They can be used more often and offer a harder path for the player. example: say the right side has siege weapons the player doesn't want to deal with. so they will more likely go down the left side only to encounter your ambush spawns.

-Breathing room

The player can survey the battle field, check which waves will come and plan for it accordingly. They can also have their units with superior movement, pull off escapes if their unit gets into a bad situation.

-Boots

Now these things will be the best item a player can hope for. They will fight even harder to get them if they know its a prize somewhere on the map and they can lose it.

The Grey Area:

Weather can either make your giant map great or the most tedious bullshit ever played. Rain is ill-advised but not impossible to make fun with your big map. an example is say you don't want the player to turtle/bait and switch through the challenge of your big map. You can use rain as punishment for those tactics. like at a certain number of turns and they haven't reached a certain area, they now have to do it in the rain for a few turns. Also units that suck in the rain can be used as an ambush when you turn it off catching the player off guard. Just be careful with weather affects and playtest often. if its boring for you, that means it must be redone.

Things that help with making big maps:

-Tiled, I love this program because of how easy and organized it is for map making. However for many map changes that go back and forth, mappy is king.

- Nightmare Module -> map-related-> movement type

allows you change the movement cost for each type of terrain tile for classes. However I only seen this in fe7 mods not fe8.

Examples of a big map chapter that works well.

-fe7 Battle before dawn

its a bit luck based but having the prince in the middle of the battlefield urges the player to cross that giant map as fast as possible.

- fe7 cog of destiny is another good one as far as keeping enemies on the map all the time. The game makes it feel like its well over 50 enemies but what the player doesn't notice is the game spawns just as many as the player is expected to slay.

- last one fe7 victory or death. best example of huge map with some do's and don'ts. the mountains seems like wasted space to the player but the enemy forces who fly can use it to quickly fly over and attack a section of your troops if you divided them down different paths.

anyway good luck

[Shadowflare]

I've also been considering the gameplay aspects of having chapters like fe4, which are outdoors, then once the chapter is finished, you can sorta visit a "command tent" of sorts, with different options depending on the map. Kind of like the Base in FE9/10, except that instead of before the chapter, it's after. I.E, once you finish a chapter, you have a new recruit, an option to buy some weapons specific to the local area, or clear out one of the castles you've surrounded. Just some ideas, since I believe indoor maps have their own unique gimmicks that outdoor maps can't handle, such as treasure rooms.

What do you guys think of this idea?

Also, is 43x36, so somewhere like 1600 tiles the max size? So neither the x or y value can be higher than 43 and 36 respectively? Or is it like, the map size can't exceed 1600 tiles, because the latter is what I'm using for size.

-Shadowflare

Edited August 24, 2015 by Shadowflare

[MCProductions]

Honestly, several of my issues with FE4 gameplay wise would likely be resolved if they just did something like that to change the pace every now and then.

So yeah, I would say that's a good idea.

[CT075]

the limit is not by number of tiles nor is it row/column number, it's slightly more complicated than that. To put it as simply as possible, adding an extra row takes more memory than adding an extra column, so the constraint is 4x + 2xy <= 0x780 or so (instead of x*y <= whatever).

[Shadowflare]

So, I've just finished my first map, and... it's ok I guess. Keep in mind that the map isn't for the prologue or chapter 1 even. It still needs some polishing, but overall, it's ok.

If you guys could give me some quick feedback and such, I'd greatly appreciate it :).

Shadowflare

[Shin]

It's technically OK, you haven't made any major spriting errors, but it's rather dull. When making a map you need to ask yourself "Does this part of the map actually add anything to the chapter or is it just space?"

[Shadowflare]

Another question if it's not too much xD.

So I know that Hextator made a patch for the Str/Mag split thing... If I were to try to make it actually work in a full custom rom hack... would I have to hack nightmare as well so that I could implement Str and Mag growths? Or is there another way to implement Str/Mag without altering any other stats?

Thanks

Shadowflare