The ever popular debate...

[Dragoncat]

So I was thinking about how there tends to be two sides in the fandom when it comes to Micaiah, you either think she's a mary sue or are meh about her. I haven't met anyone who absolutely loves her, if they do exist they're not as vocal as the people who hate her. This topic is meant to be a friendly debate/discussion, keep that in mind...

Here's evidence for both sides:

Mary Sue:

- Sacrifice ability, said to be an "almost unheard of" gift, and portrayed as being just as good, if not better, than healing staves.

- Everything that Ike had to work for, she gets handed to her. Ike had to prove himself before the royals would see him as an equal. Micaiah's automatically there as soon as she meets Pelleas.

- She's liked by almost everyone.

Not Mary Sue:

- Combat wise, she's not perfect. She's a squishy mage, more so than the other magic users actually.

- She does have character flaws. She's so loyal to Pelleas that she sends the dawn brigade against the laguz without question, despite Sothe's protests. She doesn't seem to want to think for herself.

- She shows signs of being insecure with herself multiple times. Being branded, being VERY important all of a sudden, stuff like that.

So is she or isn't she? I voted not sure.

[Shin]

I'd be careful throwing around the Mary Sue label. You could probably argue it either way, but my personal conclusion is that I just dislike her and her characterisation. Character flaws only mean something when they have consequences, and useful abilities don't necessarily make someone super powerful.

[Dragoncat]

I'd be careful throwing around the Mary Sue label. You could probably argue it either way, but my personal conclusion is that I just dislike her and her characterisation. Character flaws only mean something when they have consequences, and useful abilities don't necessarily make someone super powerful.

This is true.

Really all this is is a topic for discussion...

[Raze200]

Heard it so much but never heard it explained. WHAT.THE.HECK.IS.A.MARYSUE?????? whew now that that's off my chest let's look at your points.

Not

1yeah I like the ability since I give her the seraph robe once I realized that unlike the other items it didn't increase by one (I used to sell them because of that fact.) with decent hp this ability can be a lifesaver during part one.

2 not sure it's "handed to her" more like she worked for it less on screen then Ike. Remember a lot happens between chapters in part one.

3well I mean her personality makes it hard for someone not to like her quite honestly she give me very few reason not to like her as a character.

Is

1very few units in this game are (perfect) and as far as a mage lord goes she's a decent magical cannon. I mean for me she has never been overly weak for a Mage. No comment on squishy idk why you mean by that exactly.

2well from my perspective (though I haven't played the game in a while most of these actions are under duress. If she goes agenst orders bad things will happen (even before it's mentioned the blood pact is in play)

3 well she's not exactly the most warlike yet she's thrust into very chaotic war scenarios. And you have to keep in mind the racism involved in deain to the Laguz as well as branded. It's not a supplies she's paranoid that will get out to the public.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Raze200

[Dragoncat]

Mary sue is a term used for a perfect/flawless/everybody loves them/unrealistic character. I've heard the term came from the earliest known instance of one in fanfic, a character named Mary Sue. Males are called gary stus.

Squishy...well I've seen it used a lot here to describe low defense units like mages. Think about it for a second.

And you do bring up good points, except about her skill being a lifesaver. You get a healer fairly early, and even before that, you have vulneraries/herbs. I very rarely use it but that's just me.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm not sure I can agree to your second point under "is a Mary Sue". Pelleas trusting Micaiah is more akin to Elincia trusting Ike (the game makes this comparison themselves). Neither Ike or Micaiah need to do much to earn this trust, because Elincia and Pelleas are both pretty desperate. Micaiah doesn't do anything like what Ike did in Begnion.

For my overall opinion, I don't think Micaiah is a Mary Sue really- she's not even the worst offender by FE standards. Her 'special powers' don't really break the plot or make things significantly easier for her and she loses/is more mistake prone than other FE Lords (significant flaws).

[Radiant head]

Part 1 - Kinda, yeah. The game seems written like she's a fangirl insert, and Sothe is her husbando.

Part 3 - No, she's borderline the villain here.

Part 4 - I've seen some people say she's too diminished into being Yune's vessel, but the secret Apostle revelation stuff just made me roll my eyes.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Radiant head

[Florete]

No, she is not.

[Mighty Kamina]

I'd argue against it. She's shown to have multiple character flaws, and is even willing to use tactics her own allies find disturbing. (Pouring oil onto the Apostle's army in 3-12.) Part 1 makes it a big deal to hype Micaiah into some goddess of sorts. But part 3 shows that Micaiah cannot live up to the hype that the people of Daein have for her. She struggles to meet the expectations of those around her, and fails at that. She's even willing to commit atrocities to protect her country/the people she loves. I used to dislike Micaiah, but she's grown on me.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Monado Boy

[The Geek]

The label of Mary Sue has been thrown about so much as an attack on different characters that it's lost all meaning by this point.

Honestly, by the logic I see thrown about on it, EVERY lord is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu/Whatever.

[EricaofRenais]

She is not my favorite character of the game by a long shot, but I do end up with her being good to use in the end game because I always make sure she is since you have to take her in to the tower anyway. I think of her as a decent unit that needs more character development and whose story was a little too obvious.

[Quintessence]

As far as I know what Mary Sue means, no. Despite having unique traits, being a priestess and such, she still shows several flaws during the story, like refusing to stop the war during the last chapters of Part 3 and even in 3-7, and she is blindly loyal to Daein and Pelleas.

Also, on Point 2, I'd like to say that Micaiah earned her title of Priestess of Dawn and commanding Daein's Army by helping the country fight Begnion, defeating Jarod with the Dawn Brigade and retaking control of Nevasa (capital?). That's what her 1st promotion means.

Ike earned his title. Micaiah earned her title. She even saves a kid and uses Sacrifice on him on 1-1 or 1-2.

Edit: and yes, she's my favorite character and lord :3

Edited January 29, 2015 by Quintessence

[Mighty Kamina]

Whoops, I also forgot to mention that in part 1, Izuka originally intends to use Micaiah as a figurehead as she's a pretty popular folk hero in Daein during part 1. It just turns out that she's a competent commander.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Monado Boy

[Dragoncat]

Part 1 - Kinda, yeah. The game seems written like she's a fangirl insert, and Sothe is her husbando.

xD Well that does happen if you don't delete their A support...

[NobodiePichu]

not a mary sue but a poorly constructed uninteresting character regardless. doesn't help ike stole the game in part 3, and what helps even less is yune possessing miciah for most of part 4 (i liked yune in her brief time in part 4 waaaay more then i ever licked miciah.) we never really learn anything about miciah herself as a person despite her supposedly being the title character. she fails as a main character and only succeeds as a minor character. thus is probably one of the reasons why people label her a mary sue because she fails at actually bringing heart to a story.

though on a personal level i dislike even the bits we do get to know of her but that's mostly because im sick and tired of the self sacrificing iwillbejesus attitude that floods video games, movies, comics, anime, and books.

[Radiant head]

not a mary sue but a poorly constructed uninteresting character regardless. doesn't help ike stole the game in part 3, and what helps even less is yune possessing miciah for most of part 4 (i liked yune in her brief time in part 4 waaaay more then i ever licked miciah.) we never really learn anything about miciah herself as a person despite her supposedly being the title character. she fails as a main character and only succeeds as a minor character. thus is probably one of the reasons why people label her a mary sue because she fails at actually bringing heart to a story.

though on a personal level i dislike even the bits we do get to know of her but that's mostly because im sick and tired of the self sacrificing iwillbejesus attitude that floods video games, movies, comics, anime, and books.

Good post.

Mary Sue is kind of a diluted word on the internet so I'm kind of careful about throwing the word around, but I definitely can get how RD beating you over the head with how special Micaiah is, while the character herself is pretty bland, can get people to call her one.

xD Well that does happen if you don't delete their A support...

Yeah I broke it in my pt, because Sothe becomes so useless in Endgame.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Radiant head

[Anacybele]

Honestly, I don't know whether to call her a Mary Sue anymore. I used to, and still think she does have some Sue traits. But other than that, I can't say.

But I do dislike her a lot and think she was poorly written/constructed. I just find her to be a bland and boring character. Hell, the game even drops her in favor of Ike later (not that I'm complaining though, Ike is way more awesome anyway <3) and Yune does her talking for her. I also hate using her, she's so fragile that it makes things frustrating by having her die in one hit a lot.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Anacybele

[Sentacotus]

Never particularly cared for her to be honest. She's obviously insecure but for good reason (ie the brand) and she makes some questionable decisions in Part 3 so I wouldn't say shes a "Mary Sue".

[Dual Dragons]

Sometimes people throw the term "Mary Sue" on a character to mean that they feel the character is undeserving of what they get in return for what they actual do. Sometimes to mean "perfectionism." It's like what The Geek said: it's kind of lost its meaning at this point. You could argue that there are different types of Sues/Stus but eh, I won't go there for now.

I have used "Mary Sue" for Micaiah before to go with the former definition I stated but here I'll drop it and say that I flat out dislike her characterization. I won't say "bland," because I think she's far from it. If she was "bland," I would have just concluded that she was unnecessary and say someone like Tauroneo for the Daein army or Sothe or Nolan when it was still the Dawn Brigade should have led in her place. I actually dislike her as a leader/commander.

For all the stupid decisions she made, for all the destructive choices she made or was about to commit to, I don't feel she got the proper consequence to justify her happy ending. It's also a very dangerous writing decision to set her up as this special goddess in the beginning by having the Daein folks beat it into the player. More successful stories would have that sort of beginning and have the character become broken from the weight of it all and then rise to the occasion to fix their mistakes. Believe me, it can be done, but I say "dangerous" because, as can be seen from this thread, it can backfire very badly if not executed properly.

On a gameplay perspective, why crappy Speed, Micaiah?

[Raze200]

Crappy speed? Form my perspective she dodges a lot more then she ought to. As for being crushed under the wieght if expectations SHE PASSES OUT both from that and some negative energy and whatnot. But stress is a part of it. Maybe I'm 5% baised as this game was a part of my childhood but I digress. She is fairly well developed from what I can tell. Also remember this itstsy-Bitsy thing called the blood pact that will wipe out EVERYONE. Simply she's trying to make sure her country sruvives. Also I'm fairly certain she states somewhere that these decisions tore her up. (Or his that when she's an a card and already dead???) regardless I think this topic has some debate left. Not so much on a Mary sue but if she is a a well defined or poorly defined character (and I use the term loosely) so have at thee board readers! Quite honestly She and the rest of the DB are some of my fav characters.

[Anacybele]

Micaiah almost never dodged when I played the game. And I played through it multiple times (though only beat it once due to not enjoying the ending). She's supposed to have a decent speed growth though.

[LeaderR Elliot]

Crappy speed? Form my perspective she dodges a lot more then she ought to. As for being crushed under the wieght if expectations SHE PASSES OUT both from that and some negative energy and whatnot. But stress is a part of it. Maybe I'm 5% baised as this game was a part of my childhood but I digress. She is fairly well developed from what I can tell. Also remember this itstsy-Bitsy thing called the blood pact that will wipe out EVERYONE. Simply she's trying to make sure her country sruvives. Also I'm fairly certain she states somewhere that these decisions tore her up. (Or his that when she's an a card and already dead???) regardless I think this topic has some debate left. Not so much on a Mary sue but if she is a a well defined or poorly defined character (and I use the term loosely) so have at thee board readers! Quite honestly She and the rest of the DB are some of my fav characters.

30% growth is the same as Ike but the base is a measly 7 base. Enemies start to pursuit her so consistenly that no durability in the world with get you safe from the ORKO... which in turn means a restart everytime the RNG screws you in your turn or you misplaced her. Note this is hard mode and most of the time cannot be fixed, altho is possible to get around it with bexp or resolve.

You may feel her a bit dodgier if youopponent has worst byorithym and micaiah is at best byorithym.

On topic: Is nice to see time has been nice to micaiah, I personally don't see her as one... and with FE13 avatar is gonna be a long time before someone can trump that one.

[Radiant head]

Sometimes people throw the term "Mary Sue" on a character to mean that they feel the character is undeserving of what they get in return for what they actual do. Sometimes to mean "perfectionism." It's like what The Geek said: it's kind of lost its meaning at this point. You could argue that there are different types of Sues/Stus but eh, I won't go there for now.

I have used "Mary Sue" for Micaiah before to go with the former definition I stated but here I'll drop it and say that I flat out dislike her characterization. I won't say "bland," because I think she's far from it. If she was "bland," I would have just concluded that she was unnecessary and say someone like Tauroneo for the Daein army or Sothe or Nolan when it was still the Dawn Brigade should have led in her place. I actually dislike her as a leader/commander.

For all the stupid decisions she made, for all the destructive choices she made or was about to commit to, I don't feel she got the proper consequence to justify her happy ending. It's also a very dangerous writing decision to set her up as this special goddess in the beginning by having the Daein folks beat it into the player. More successful stories would have that sort of beginning and have the character become broken from the weight of it all and then rise to the occasion to fix their mistakes. Believe me, it can be done, but I say "dangerous" because, as can be seen from this thread, it can backfire very badly if not executed properly.

On a gameplay perspective, why crappy Speed, Micaiah?

I still think she's bland because her personality doesn't go well beyond "she really cares about people."

But yeah, while she was obviously strong-handed by the blood pact, I think she should have still gotten way more flak than she did for her pouring oil tactic.

[Dual Dragons]

Crappy speed? Form my perspective she dodges a lot more then she ought to.

Yes. Crappy Speed. 35% Speed growth. On average, that's 1.05 Speed per three levels. There are reasons why people say to BEXP that Speed of hers as it can be very unreliable.

As for being crushed under the wieght if expectations SHE PASSES OUT both from that and some negative energy and whatnot. But stress is a part of it.

If you say that's enough. For me, it isn't for the stuff she does later.

Also remember this itstsy-Bitsy thing called the blood pact that will wipe out EVERYONE. Simply she's trying to make sure her country sruvives.

That particular Blood Pact only would wipe out the Daein people... by increments.

Which didn't happen. Because they were turned into rock. That's why Levail couldn't enact it when the armies met up in Begnion.

Yes. Her country at the expense of others. That's why I don't like her. It's not that I don't understand.

Also I'm fairly certain she states somewhere that these decisions tore her up. (Or his that when she's an a card and already dead???)

If you could find the where and when that happens, we could discuss it.

Not so much on a Mary sue but if she is a a well defined or poorly defined character

I don't know what you mean by "defined" in this way. Do you mean pinpointing her traits or...?

I mean, she can be sassy ("Ike, the father of Sothe's children"), she doesn't exactly want glory for herself, she can be self-sacrificing, she's very insecure (as brought up before) because of her lineage and how people treated her. That's not usually my problem with characters. It's a thing called execution. In writing, it's the distinction between two authors who write similar or the same plot elements or write about similar-traited character.

As I said previously, I don't think she's "bland," because I wouldn't dislike her as much if she was just a bland character. I dislike her characterization and how she was executed. That's a focus on how the author pulled off the character and the story.

[Ϲharlie]

I picked "not sure" because it's as close to "I don't care" as the poll gets.