TheWerdna Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) So I am really frustrated by the fact that it turned out that the Nohr side expies turned out to be the same characters from Awakening. Not because I disliked Awakening, but rather because I did like Awakening. The problem I have is that by doing this they've tied Fates to Awakening, when I feel like the two should have been allowed to stand on their own. What's worse it seems like IS went out of their way to screw with Awakening's canon and story as much as possible. In addition to rendering any pairings involving those 3 non-canon, it screws with the plot in other ways with support between Owain and Ophelia making it seem like Fates is somehow in the distant past while also being its own timeline, and that Not!Tharja's supports with M!Kamui imply she and him are reincarnations of Tharja and M!Robin, while her supports with F!Kamui imply the exact opposite (that Tharja and Robin are reincarnations of them!). All of this has left me with so much anxiety, as this completely messes with Awakening's story and characters, and I doubt this will ever be cleaned up. Because lets face it, I doubt the Japanese fanbase will complain about this, and even on the slim chance any large number in the west care, they won't pay attention. I am honestly not what I I should even think or do at this point. The game has literally made me feel less excited to continue the replay of Awakening I started a couple weeks ago or keep writing my Awakening fanfiction. What do you guys think? Are these implications something I should just accept and deal with? Edited July 5, 2015 by TheWerdna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrophys Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 It DOESN'T render things non-canon because Awakening has ALREADY introduced the concept of ALTERNATE UNIVERSES/TIMELINES. The simple way out of it is that they're from one of countless alternate/parallel worlds in which the basic events of Fire Emblem Awakening occurred. However, there's no need for it to be the identically same VERSION of the the worlds in which OUR Fire Emblem Awakenings occurred in. It will be similar, in some cases almost the same, but nonetheless crucially different. In this case, one of the differences is that this is a world in which all three of them were single, in which Severa was actually a redhead of Cordelia's shade (despite none of her fathers in the gameplay providing for that), and which they all traveled together to another world. But yet there is another world in which another set of Inigo, Severa, and Owain went back in time, helped the versions of their parents from that world defeat Grima, married one of the comrades who travelled back in time with them (or a Robin of the opposite gender) and stayed put in the Awakening world. Just like there is another world in which these characters all died in battle in the Awakening world after coming back in time but before the defeat of Grima. There really is no solid canon on Awakening. Or rather, almost anything can be canon, but only in the individual context of that particular version of the world in which it happened. But as for an overall composite canon for Awakening itself… there's not much. Only a few details about Robin's relation to Grima, that Robin is the tactician, that Chrom gets married, that Lucina and the children come back in time, that the events of the main story chapters happen, and that Grima is defeated, and a few other things I neglected to mention. Stuff outside of these scopes are unrestricted by canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Royal Red Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 So wait, they are actually confirmed to be the same characters as in Awakening? I thought they were just copy and pastes of the characters personalities and design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWerdna Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Yeah, I know that logically it could just be explained away with alternate universes, but that sorta bugs me when the game seems to go out of its way to go "hey look, remember these characters from Awakening? Well they're the same people! We're even going to reference DLC stuff to prove it!". Not to mention that it means that this unseen version of Awakening's universe is more important than any of our playthroughs, as this is the one that gets cameos and such, so even then the game makes this one "more canon" so to speak. In the end I think they should have just not had these characters be the same people at all, and leave any Awakening crossovers to be DLC and thus of dubious canon in the first place. So wait, they are actually confirmed to be the same characters as in Awakening?I thought they were just copy and pastes of the characters personalities and design. Yep, the same characters from Awakening, at least in the case of Inigo, Owain, and Severa. In the A support between "Odin" and "Lazward" they talk about going back in time to meet their parents again and killing Grima, calling eachother by their Awakening names. Luna's confession has her telling Kamui that her real name is Severa. Then you have their unique dialogue with the Lucina and Robin amiibos, which in the case of Amiibo!Lucina instantly recognizes them and they recognize her. Then you have Owain and Inigo's supports with their respective kids, which both bring up Awakening stuff (Ophelia's A support her entirely based around her Brand of the Exalt having manifested) Edited July 1, 2015 by TheWerdna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I'm a bit confused. Why is this bothering you? I don't understand how it messes with Awakening's characters...? Sorry, I'm just very lost. With Luna, Lazward, and Odin, I feel like they could've easily crossed to a different world (or timeline rather), just as they did in Awakening to be with their parents. Or am I missing the point of your issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWerdna Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 I'm a bit confused. Why is this bothering you? I don't understand how it messes with Awakening's characters...? Sorry, I'm just very lost. With Luna, Lazward, and Odin, I feel like they could've easily crossed to a different world (or timeline rather), just as they did in Awakening to be with their parents. Or am I missing the point of your issue? The fact that they're unpaired versions, so it kinda messes with that aspect. While I am not particularly attached to the pairings I gave them, what I am terrified of is that this could be a precedent to more of this sort of thing in DLC (we already have one awakening crossover DLC, and I'd bet money we'll see more) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Royal Red Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 This actually makes it interesting. In a support conversation of Brady with his father, he says that he will step out of the family so that things do not get confusing, as there would be two Bradys in the family. I bring this up because this could have been a collective thought. The children characters could have simply decided it wasn't good to have dupes of the same person in the same time. Thus, they all warped to different dimensions, and began lives of their own. A very nice, poetic way to begin anew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWerdna Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) This actually makes it interesting. In a support conversation of Brady with his father, he says that he will step out of the family so that things do not get confusing, as there would be two Bradys in the family. I bring this up because this could have been a collective thought. The children characters could have simply decided it wasn't good to have dupes of the same person in the same time. Thus, they all warped to different dimensions, and began lives of their own. A very nice, poetic way to begin anew. Except they all make it clear they are planning to leave this timeline once things are done (though its ambiguous if they a referring to the Awakening timeline or the original future timeline in regards to where they are planning to return to) and their endings have this happen regardless of their pairing status at the end of Fates. But what if they were paired with Robin or one of the other future kids not in Fates? What about Severa's unpaired epilogue, that mentioned her returning to visit her family once a year? Edited July 1, 2015 by TheWerdna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Royal Red Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Except they all make it clear they are planning to leave this timeline once things are done (though its ambiguous if they a referring to the Awakening timeline or the original future timeline in regards to where they are planning to return to) and their endings have this happen regardless of their pairing status at the end of Fates. But what if they were paired with Robin or one of the other future kids not in Fates? What about Severa's unpaired epilogue, that mentioned her returning to visit her family once a year? Due to the multiple number of supports avaliabe, it is hard to give characters one definitive future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWerdna Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Due to the multiple number of supports avaliabe, it is hard to give characters one definitive future. Which is why I hate the idea of them being in the game! As it stands its basically retconing a ton of possible endings. Or at the very least saying that they are from a different version of Awakening's events, which is "more canon" than your playthroughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Royal Red Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Which is why I hate the idea of them being in the game! As it stands its basically retconing a ton of possible endings. Or at the very least saying that they are from a different version of Awakening's events, which is "more canon" than your playthroughts. Well, in a game with 3 cannonical endings, tie ins, even making little sense, would fit here better than anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.Leu Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) There is so many things that doesn't make any sense with them being FEA's character, it's painful. And I'm not even talking about the outrealm crap, that, we already know it will never make sense, there is also the fact that they're on Nohr's side, aka, the evil side, to conveniently be the servants of your siblings. Dat logic. Personally, I blabantly do as if they were just expies and nothing else, yeah, that's lame, but it can't be as much as them comming straight from FEA. Edited July 1, 2015 by B.Leu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeonZ Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Yeah, I know that logically it could just be explained away with alternate universes, but that sorta bugs me when the game seems to go out of its way to go "hey look, remember these characters from Awakening? Well they're the same people! We're even going to reference DLC stuff to prove it!". Not to mention that it means that this unseen version of Awakening's universe is more important than any of our playthroughs, as this is the one that gets cameos and such, so even then the game makes this one "more canon" so to speak. Not necessarily. Look at the Amiibo characters. They add a Lucina who knows Owain, Inigo and Severa and carries the Falchion, but yet she isn't actually the one from their world. So, this game itself shows that there are multiple versions of Awakening's canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWerdna Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Not necessarily. Look at the Amiibo characters. They add a Lucina who knows Owain, Inigo and Severa and carries the Falchion, but yet she isn't actually the one from their world. So, this game itself shows that there are multiple versions of Awakening's canon. II guess. Its just that what really bugs me is that I don't think the game's writers intended it to be like that. Maybe an interview or some sort of DLC will come along to prove this wrong, but as of now it really leaves a bad taste in my mouth I haven't been able to get rid of for a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrophys Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 As for two of them being on Nohr's side…. Inigo and Severa are both mercenaries…. i.e. sellswords… it wouldn't be necessarily for a sellsword to end up on the Nohrian side if it was Nohr who was willing to hire them and pay them in the first place. Owain is harder to account for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWerdna Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 As for two of them being on Nohr's side…. Inigo and Severa are both mercenaries…. i.e. sellswords… it wouldn't be necessarily for a sellsword to end up on the Nohrian side if it was Nohr who was willing to hire them and pay them in the first place. Owain is harder to account for. They pay him in comic books and action figures.... Come on, we all know that would actually work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taka-kun Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I find it harsh to label Nohr as the evil kingdom just because Garon is a pretty much stereotypical evilz emperor. It would be like calling the various countries in the world for evil because they at some point had a horrible emperor (I will not name any countries to avoid a flame war). Back in Tellius, Begnion was evil yet Sanaki was a kind and just (yet spoiled) apostle who had loyal retainers. Sure, Garon acts evil, but the people Inigo, Owain and Severa serve are pretty decent ones and they probably swear fealty to their lords than directly to Garon. Maybe when they entered the world of Fates, they were deep in Nohrian territory and then worked their way to their position, so it's plausible that they serve house Nohr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWerdna Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 I find it harsh to label Nohr as the evil kingdom just because Garon is a pretty much stereotypical evilz emperor. It would be like calling the various countries in the world for evil because they at some point had a horrible emperor (I will not name any countries to avoid a flame war). Back in Tellius, Begnion was evil yet Sanaki was a kind and just (yet spoiled) apostle who had loyal retainers. Sure, Garon acts evil, but the people Inigo, Owain and Severa serve are pretty decent ones and they probably swear fealty to their lords than directly to Garon. Maybe when they entered the world of Fates, they were deep in Nohrian territory and then worked their way to their position, so it's plausible that they serve house Nohr. That's kinda what I figured. Honestly I am more bugged by the numerous issues their presence seems to create (timeline issues if not the possibility of bringing Awakening "canon" into question). It just feels shortsided, like they threw them in without really thinking of the consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taka-kun Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 That's kinda what I figured. Honestly I am more bugged by the numerous issues their presence seems to create (timeline issues if not the possibility of bringing Awakening "canon" into question). It just feels shortsided, like they threw them in without really thinking of the consequences. Yeah, I myself figured that they just threw those characters as callback to Awakening. Awakening's DLC chapters did imply that all the happenings of the Fire Emblem series are part of a multiverse, connected via the Outrealms and I just think that Fates is just one of those worlds, accessible via the Outrealm Gates. Also, the endings of the three were fairly amibigious but in no way do their existence in Fates canonize certain aspects in Awakening. Maybe they did marry and then divorced (yes, sad to think like that but it happens) and then just continued with their travels, for whatever reason they have. What I find the most ridiculous part so far is the reincarnation thing, but so far it's only mentioned via Kamui/Shara support, which, for all intents and purposes, just be delusions on Shara's part (considering she is based on Tharja, who thought , it's not that far-fetched). We will have to see if Kamui/Matoi and Kamui/Grey reveals anything new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twylis Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I actually really love that they're the same characters. It makes the similarities completely justified, and it goes entirely in line with the Outrealm concept Awakening introduced. The way Hoshido handled it was far more annoying, but at least the hair colours are different so they somewhat can pass as new characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taka-kun Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I actually really love that they're the same characters. It makes the similarities completely justified, and it goes entirely in line with the Outrealm concept Awakening introduced. The way Hoshido handled it was far more annoying, but at least the hair colours are different so they somewhat can pass as new characters. On a personal level, I am intrigued with the reincarnated characters, since Hoshido is something of an expy of Japan and in Buddhism, a major religion in Japan, reincarnation is a huge concept. However, I haven't seen enough of the characters to be able to form an opinion of how IS handled it (though based on what I've seen so far, i.e. Kamui/Shara, I think they botched it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezrius Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) I think I've mentioned this before, but I just find it funny they put them in Nohr's campaign, of all places. Might it make more sense story-wise? Maybe? But Hoshido, from the announcement of "If", has essentially been made out to be the more Awakening-style of the two campaigns, whereas Nohr is supposed to appeal to the traditional Fire Emblem players that felt Awakening deviated too much from the old formula. So the Hoshido/Awakening campaign gets (mostly) original characters (with some vague reincarnation-ish types), and the Nohr/Non-Awakening campaign gets Awakening characters shoved down their throat. I just find it somewhat entertaining and possibly a complete fumble. Also, from what I've heard, the third path seems just outright superior. Too bad I can't just buy that game without buying/deciding between one of these two first... Edit: Clarification; I do actually think I'm fine if not happy with these characters being in the game, just find the way they're placed in Nohr as the less-Awakening-like version hilarious. Edited July 1, 2015 by Ezrius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWerdna Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Yeah, I myself figured that they just threw those characters as callback to Awakening. Awakening's DLC chapters did imply that all the happenings of the Fire Emblem series are part of a multiverse, connected via the Outrealms and I just think that Fates is just one of those worlds, accessible via the Outrealm Gates. Also, the endings of the three were fairly amibigious but in no way do their existence in Fates canonize certain aspects in Awakening. Maybe they did marry and then divorced (yes, sad to think like that but it happens) and then just continued with their travels, for whatever reason they have. What I find the most ridiculous part so far is the reincarnation thing, but so far it's only mentioned via Kamui/Shara support, which, for all intents and purposes, just be delusions on Shara's part (considering she is based on Tharja, who thought , it's not that far-fetched). We will have to see if Kamui/Matoi and Kamui/Grey reveals anything new. See, while I'm not personally all that attached to the pairings from Awakening involving those 3, I know people who are. What's more baffling is that they were some of the more popular characters, thus had a good number of people who paired their Robin with them. In the end I hate this idea since IS could easily turn around and mess up other pairings that I do really care about. It shows a shift from where in Awakening there was no true canon, they now are starting to mess with that, and honestly I don't like that idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taka-kun Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 See, while I'm not personally all that attached to the pairings from Awakening involving those 3, I know people who are. What's more baffling is that they were some of the more popular characters, thus had a good number of people who paired their Robin with them. In the end I hate this idea since IS could easily turn around and mess up other pairings that I do really care about. It shows a shift from where in Awakening there was no true canon, they now are starting to mess with that, and honestly I don't like that idea. Well, I hated that IS made Robin come back after their sacrifice cause I felt it rendered the sacrifice meaningless. I also hated that the Spotpass characters weren't really dead, rendering their deaths also meaningless. I can't say anything else more than the fact that IS do want they wanna because they hope it appeals to as large a fanbase as possible and, as you asked in the OP, you should accept it. You could refuse to buy the game and remain in whatever headcanon you have of the three from Awakening, but given everything else we are given, will you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWerdna Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Well, I hated that IS made Robin come back after their sacrifice cause I felt it rendered the sacrifice meaningless. I also hated that the Spotpass characters weren't really dead, rendering their deaths also meaningless. I can't say anything else more than the fact that IS do want they wanna because they hope it appeals to as large a fanbase as possible and, as you asked in the OP, you should accept it. You could refuse to buy the game and remain in whatever headcanon you have of the three from Awakening, but given everything else we are given, will you? At least with the spotpass you could argue those were non-canon, as they were DLC with a complete lack of supports. I guess I just hope that they don't actually screw up other things In Awakening I do care about. At least I have six months of watching to see what develops. Since while this alone isn't enough to keep me from buying the game, if they somehow canonize things in such a way to say my OTP of Robin x Lucina is non-canon (I just want it to remain in the nebulous realms of "everything pairings is equally canon"), that would piss me off enough to not buy it. I do guess there are headcanon work-arounds for most issues, and I people said it is a completely viable interpretation that they are just from a parallel timeline separate from your playthroughs. But it still just doesn't sit right with me, I guess, probably because I am paranoid the writers will just come along and disprove that somehow. Edited July 1, 2015 by TheWerdna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts