So I'm starting a Lunatic run in FE13.

[Draco]

Topic.

I'm having quite a bit of trouble with it so far, and I'm just on the prologue. O:

Besides having to rely on Frederick a lot, is there anything I should know before going any farther in?

[Ownagepuffs]

You're too young for Lunatic mode Draco bro

Don't lean on Fred too much

Keep your team small

Forges are your friend

All further responses should go in the Lunatic Club thread. It's very helpful!

[Draco]

You're too young for Lunatic mode Draco bro

Don't lean on Fred too much

All further responses should go in the Lunatic Club thread. It's very helpful!

I dunno, I love a good challenge, but this is brutal. o:

Huh, I guess I was wrong. I suppose it was kinda obvious, though; if all the EXP goes to him, then nobody else gets any.

I'll look for it, but can you gimme a link?

[-Cynthia-]

Try to put most of your exp into Avatar when possible, they snowball faster than your other units. Sorcerer is a great class post promotion because you can Nosferatu your way through chapters. You don't want to train many other combat units, maybe Lon'qu or Panne and add Morgan later. I found heavy use of Frederick(paired with Sumia) until chapter 16 or so made the game significantly easier.

[Ownagepuffs]

I dunno, I love a good challenge, but this is brutal. o:

Huh, I guess I was wrong. I suppose it was kinda obvious, though; if all the EXP goes to him, then nobody else gets any.

I'll look for it, but can you gimme a link?

In the Lunatic early game, a large majority of your characters will be on the brink of death after getting hit. Lunatic mode is kinda brutal, but the more experience you have with Awakening, the easier it gets.

Fred's bases can carry him to C16, where his slowed exp gain catches up to him because every enemy is promoted from that point onwards. You can count on Fred, just not too much. Think Sothe.

This is The Lunatic Club, don't be afraid to live there for the duration of your playthrough.

[Draco]

Cool. Thank you!

I got one more question before I migrate them to the other thread, though: Can I murder everyone with Frederick and then grind everyone with Outrealms later? Or will that... not work?

[Czar_Yoshi]

You can try, but Fred's not guaranteed to be able to get you as far as the Outrealm Gate, especially if you're on Classic and want to protect your recruits. It's usually very random with a lot of dodging involved and long-term strats (training Avatar instead) are much safer.

The first 4 chapters are RNG hell. You're going to have to rely on Freddy for a lot.

Once you get chapter 5, it eases up. Some people just have Freddy crutch them through the first 4 chapters, then grind on the Outrealms.

If you want to be MLG xXDR4C0Xx, then you'll have to keep the xp spread out, which is tough, and will require a lot of resetting.

There are some guides online if you get really stuck in chapt 2 or something.

Good luck~

The first four chapters are bad if you use Fred as a lead or are playing on Lunatic+ without being a legend. They're doable very consistently if you use him as a support and train Avatar, though.

Spreading exp out is a bad idea. Enemies don't give enough for you to keep more than one or two units ahead of the curve and a handful of others up with it.

[Eselred]

Lean on Fred for the early chapters, but try and get your Avatar as much experience as possible. By the time the Avatar gets to level 20 and their first promotion, they are by far your best unit and the snowball just keeps rolling. Fred really falls off a cliff because his bases aren't that great and his growths are meh. Fred with a Sumia support is actually quite good for a while, but again, it's best to not use Fred much as the game goes on. I'd also not advise using any first generation characters other than female Avatar x Chrom and Fred x Sumia. Like has been mentioned before, they require extreme babysitting in order to be decent, and that EXP is much better used towards the Avatar snowball.

If you're not that experienced with Lunatic runs, as I wasn't when I started my first Lunatic playthrough, then I would stick to The Family of Doom: female Avatar x Chrom and Lucina x male Morgan. Everybody else isn't really worth it unless you want to make your run more challenging/interesting.

[Carmine Sword]

Fred's growths aren't really any worse than the growth rates of any other unit, he just gains experience more slowly due to a higher internal level.

[Draco]

Lean on Fred for the early chapters, but try and get your Avatar as much experience as possible. By the time the Avatar gets to level 20 and their first promotion, they are by far your best unit and the snowball just keeps rolling. Fred really falls off a cliff because his bases aren't that great and his growths are meh. Fred with a Sumia support is actually quite good for a while, but again, it's best to not use Fred much as the game goes on. I'd also not advise using any first generation characters other than female Avatar x Chrom and Fred x Sumia. Like has been mentioned before, they require extreme babysitting in order to be decent, and that EXP is much better used towards the Avatar snowball.

If you're not that experienced with Lunatic runs, as I wasn't when I started my first Lunatic playthrough, then I would stick to The Family of Doom: female Avatar x Chrom and Lucina x male Morgan. Everybody else isn't really worth it unless you want to make your run more challenging/interesting.

I have M!Avatar though.

btw, is Sorcerer a good class to go? I know how OP Nosferatu is.

[Ownagepuffs]

I have M!Avatar though.

btw, is Sorcerer a good class to go? I know how OP Nosferatu is.

Answered your own question then. Nosferatu is dumb.

Edit:

Lean on Fred for the early chapters, but try and get your Avatar as much experience as possible. By the time the Avatar gets to level 20 and their first promotion, they are by far your best unit and the snowball just keeps rolling. Fred really falls off a cliff because his bases aren't that great and his growths are meh. Fred with a Sumia support is actually quite good for a while, but again, it's best to not use Fred much as the game goes on. I'd also not advise using any first generation characters other than female Avatar x Chrom and Fred x Sumia. Like has been mentioned before, they require extreme babysitting in order to be decent, and that EXP is much better used towards the Avatar snowball.

If you're not that experienced with Lunatic runs, as I wasn't when I started my first Lunatic playthrough, then I would stick to The Family of Doom: female Avatar x Chrom and Lucina x male Morgan. Everybody else isn't really worth it unless you want to make your run more challenging/interesting.

You're being that guy. Don't be that guy.

Advice is appreciated, but don't attach inaccurate information to it. Plenty of characters can function without "extreme babysitting" and a lot of characters are worth investing in. Fredrick's bases can carry him well into the midgame with proper investment (maybe even further with Sumia support) and his growths range from average to amazing.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[-Cynthia-]

I have M!Avatar though.

btw, is Sorcerer a good class to go? I know how OP Nosferatu is.

You probably want to pair up Avatar with some lady then. I dunno, Tharja seems somewhat popular for Sorcerer MUs? If you don't want to Nosferatank, you could try Sol tanking with Hero which is kinda similar.

[Eselred]

Answered your own question then. Nosferatu is dumb.

Edit:

You're being that guy. Don't be that guy.

Advice is appreciated, but don't attach inaccurate information to it. Plenty of characters can function without "extreme babysitting" and a lot of characters are worth investing in. Fredrick's bases can carry him well into the midgame with proper investment (maybe even further with Sumia support) and his growths range from average to amazing.

Perhaps before getting on the soapbox, you would realize that in other threads about Lunatic, I've said that Fred lasts well into the mid-game (about Chapter 16 or so when promoted units start showing up), and I've paired him with Sumia for the Speed boost that helps him out for a long while.

Also, in the other Lunatic threads as well, I've been advised that unless you invest in getting a few certain units ahead of the curve very early on (Cordelia, Panne, Nowi I think was the exclusive list), then it's really not worth using any other units on Lunatic. I was also advised not to use Fred too much, because he stunts the Avatar's EXP and really does fall off a cliff around mid-game. All of this advice was sound, and in fact, you participated in many of these discussions.

Don't be an Internet tough guy. The advice I gave was accurate for a first-time Lunatic player, which I was not too long ago. If you rely on Fred too much at the expense of the Avatar, you will really regret it when promoted units with forges show up if your Avatar isn't a death machine. And since I'm on Chapter 20 of my current Lunatic game, none of the other units I have been training can hold their own other than Avatar/Chrom and Lucina/Morgan and perhaps Tharja, but it was really iffy with Tharja for a wihle, and she can still get taken out if she misses or doesn't drain enough to Nostank.

You're being "that guy". Stop.

Edit: Typos

Edited March 15, 2015 by Eselred

[Ownagepuffs]

Sully, Nowi, Cordelia and Sumia all make top picks for Robin. They have availability and all provide some benefit to Morgan.

Nowi means Veteran Manakete

Sully let's Morgan start as a cav with C Swords and Lances, which allows for reclass flexibility (losing weapon rank sucks)

Sumia and Cordelia are just really good characters in general and Pegasus Knight is a good starting class for Morgan. C Lances is like the best thing you could ask for aside from C tomes.

MU x Tharja is good if we have Tharja lead (Sorc has unimpressive pair up bonuses) and Morgan will start out as the best class in the game but if we have Robin lead then Tharja is underwhelming.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Well...

"Extreme babysitting" is spending hundreds of turns breaking weapons, boxing Archers and taking dozens of turns to poke them to death, always going with full tonics on, and doing things to the major detriment of everyone else such as blowing your entire weapons budget on +5 forges, using multiple Arms Scrolls on the same character, and giving away early Seals to the point where Avatar is held back.

Most characters don't require this. Sully, Miriel, Sumia, Panne, Cordelia, Nowi, Cherche (for whatever reason females are really good in Awakening) and anyone with a staff are all capable of getting on their feet with mere favoritism (priority pairup choice, proper budgeting of funds to get them started without hurting everyone else (such as a Short Spear and Str tonic for Cord to ORKO DMs, or a Dragonstone+ and Seraph Robe for Nowi), or being the unit of choice to clear out a safe but massive choke like in Cht.3 and 8 for lots of exp)- they rarely take more than one or two chapters to really get going with the right preparation.

I strongly recommend against Tharja in Lunatic though (I recommend against her everywhere but whatever). She's basically a slightly more durable Miriel who joins 8 chapters later and with D Tomes- any possible Spd/Def increase is completely mitigated by the fact that Miriel could be at S by then with A Tomes. Miriel has very lucrative training opportunities earlygame as well, and is one of the easiest units to set up kills for due to not needing to fight at 1 range.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Ownagepuffs]

Perhaps before getting on the soapbox, you would realize that in other threads about Lunatic, I've said that Fred lasts well into the mid-game (about Chapter 16 or so when promoted units start showing up), and I've paired him with Sumia for the Speed boost that helps him out for a long while.

Also, in the other Lunatic threads as well, I've been advised that unless you invest in getting a few certain units ahead of the curve very early on (Cordelia, Panne, Nowi I think was the exclusive list), then it's really not worth using any other units on Lunatic. I was also advised not to use Fred too much, because he stunts the Avatar's EXP and really does fall off a cliff around mid-game. All of this advice was sound, and in fact, you participated in many of these discussions.

Don't be an Internet tough guy. The advice I gave was accurate for a first-time Lunatic player, which I was not too long ago. If you rely on Fred too much at the expense of the Avatar, you will really regret it when promoted units with forges show up if your Avatar isn't a death machine. And since I'm on Chapter 20 of my current Lunatic game, none of the other units I have been training can hold their own other than Avatar/Chrom and Lucina/Morgan and perhaps Tharja, but it was really iffy with Tharja for a wihle, and she can still get taken out if she misses or doesn't drain enough to Nostank.

You're being "that guy". Stop.

Edit: Typos

I'd like you to tell how bases that last for roughly 50% of the game, give or take a few paralogues are "not that great" or how 110% HP, 60% Str, 55% Skl/Def and 50% Spd growths are "meh". You have said "use Sorc Robin", which is good advice. Saying everyone else "requires extreme babysitting" is hyperbolic and incorrect. Lon'qu, Gregor, Vaike, Sumia, Cherche, Miriel, and Sully are all examples of stellar units that can hold their own. Robin being the easiest to train doesn't make everyone else bad.

If correcting inaccurate statements qualifies as "that guy" to you, then yeah I don't mind being that guy. You shouldn't take offense to being corrected.

Edit: Damn it ninja Czar.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Eselred]

Extreme babysitting to me means having to go out of my way and alter my strategy to slow down for a while to get a unit going. I did not mean "extreme" in the same manner such as getting Donnel going in Lunatic. Perhaps my choice of using "extreme" was ill-advised, but for me, it's all about practicality: why spend that time getting other units up to speed when you can use Avatar to destroy the game once the snowball starts?

Also, I forgot that Miriel can reclass into Dark magic, but Second Seals are a scarce commodity early game, especially if you are trying to use other units like Panne, who needs to get to Wyvern ASAP and reclassing Avatar to pick up some powerful skills (Galeforce, Armsthrift, Sol, etc) when the game slows down for a bit.

Staff users are awesome though...Lunatic has really taught me that. You can cruise through Normal and Hard without ever really needing them, but Rescue and Physic are so powerful.

PS - I don't mind being corrected when I'm wrong (I'm still relatively new to Awakening), but your choice of words is quite standoff-ish. Calling someone bad and being "that guy" when they say, "Don't use Fred too long or you'll regret it since he's not an end-game unit" isn't offensive, but it is annoying. I have also said in many other places previously that Fred is great early game and still decent through the mid-game (especially with a Sumia pair-up, which I myself am using). It doesn't matter what his growths are; if Fred is seeing any direct combat late game, you're probably not doing something right. He is WAY behind other units late game, and all that EXP you dumped into him is better spent elsewhere.

Edit: I have some bias towards Tharja because she is one of my favorite characters in Awakening, but it still stands that she can Nostank upon recruitment without any effort or investment. Give her a SPD and maybe SKL pairup and she is good to go.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Eselred

[Czar_Yoshi]

Base Lunatic Tharja@Nos has 19 Atk. Enemies in Cht.9 have 1-3 Res (except the Mages who have 7-8), so she'll be doing 16-18 damage and healing 8-9 HP per fight. A Mage pairup and Tonic could boost that to 11-12 at most.

Durability wise, she's got 13 Spd and 10 Def. Typical enemy Atk in Cht.9 is 29 (Steel Axe Wyverns, Silver Lance Soldiers) so she'll be taking 19 per battle barring dodges. Enemies have 12-14 Spd so she won't be doubling any time soon.

So even assuming perfect Hit (which she definitely doesn't have), she's taking twice as much as she's recovering. I wouldn't count that as being able to Nostank.

But yeah Ownage you probably are being a little aggressive.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Ownagepuffs]

Just so you know, by "that guy" I meant the person that says "don't use anyone besides Robin because everyone else sucks." Which is what you did.

Your definition of extreme babysitting also applies to Robin. The water trick is by no means a fast strategy.

Edit: Regarding Tharja, it's worth noting that she has a base of 13 Speed, which is surprisingly high (a 65% growth keeps it high, too). It *is* possible to get her into doubling range fairly quickly if you can spare her a Gregor or LQ support. Tharja's likely to be recruited towards the tail end of C9, so it's better to check out her C10 performance. The barbs have 14 Speed and the soldiers have 15 speed. LQ gives instant +5 Speed which puts her at 18. Speed tonics put her at 20 which is in good shape to double everything in C10 sans the thieves. Magic tonic + Nosferatu puts her at 21 Atk. Against the barbs she's dealing 20x2 and 18x2 vs the soldiers. That's not bad.

Edit 2: Her hit rates are gonna be shit (maybe not due to Hex/Anathema) but I'm assuming best case scenario. She also has 10 Defense (wtf that's 1 less than Gregor) and 26 HP. The soldiers have 29 Atk, dealing 19 damage to her and she will heal back 18 damage if both Nos attacks hit. The Barbs have 35 Atk, letting her narrowly avoid death by dealing 25 damage to her and she'll heal back 20 HP. A defense tonic negates the Soldiers (deal 17 damage to her, she heals 18) but she is still at a net HP loss with the barbs. So yeah, this really depends on accuracy.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Eselred]

Just so you know, by "that guy" I meant the person that says "don't use anyone besides Robin because everyone else sucks." Which is what you did.

Your definition of extreme babysitting also applies to Robin. The water trick is by no means a fast strategy.

Then maybe you should have explained what you meant instead of just zinging out a one-liner.

Also, I didn't use the water trick. Where did I ever say I used the water trick? I know of its existence, but I don't even know how to do it. From what I understand, it seems super boring to me, like training Donnel in his paralogue for 200 turns. I've also read that it really helps for Lunatic+, which is not what this thread is about nor what I am currently playing. You're making assumptions, and you know what assume really means.

I used Fred as my front-liner early on and fed EXP to Robin as fast as I could to get the Avatar going, then moved Fred to more of a support role once Avatar started the snowball. And I did not say "everyone else sucks", I said everyone else really isn't worth it unless you want to make the extra investment to get them going. Show me where I said "everyone else sucks". In fact, I specifically said that I would not advise using other 1st gen units (as a first-time Lunatic player) because the Avatar is way better and requires far less investment. That is hardly the same as saying the rest "suck". You are creating words I didn't write and arguing against points I did not make. In my current game, I trained Cordelia, Lon'Qu and Tharja a bit. Cordelia is a Dark Flier with S Henry and gets crushed so bad that she is a liability, and as stated before, Tharja/Lon'Qu is decent but was really shaky for a while and still pales in comparison to the Family of Doom. Lon'Qu has been a Swordmaster for a while, and he is having trouble damaging these tough promoted units without an effective weapon.

If I played Lunatic again (doubtful), I probably wouldn't use Tharja, Lon'Qu, Cordelia or Henry next time. I'd stick to the Family of Doom because Lunatic can be cheap and frustrating at times. I seek to minimize the frustration, and I offered advice to that end.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Eselred

[Ownagepuffs]

"Requires extreme babysitting" sounds pretty close to "suck" the way I see it. In the event of a non water trick run, Avatar is no more or less difficult to train than a handful of units so now that statement is even more confusing. An actual snowball starts in the prologue with the water trick, so pardon my assumption there.

The reason your units are having trouble is because avatar solo is a 100% commitment.

[-Cynthia-]

I used Lon'qu in Lunatic, but reclassed him to Wyvern Rider with the C8 Second Seal. Swordmaster isn't a good midgame/lategame class IMO, he's better off being Panne with slightly worse stats and better skills. I would say Cordelia is worth training to level 10, Master Seal her to Falcon Knight and she can be flying Rescue staff user (with bad range admittedly) and can spam Rescue to get to Rally Speed.

I do have to agree that units like Vaike, Stahl, Sully etc. generally have starts that are too poor to justify training them in the long term. They can be useful if you're willing to take a lot of turns though.

[Ownagepuffs]

Define "a lot of turns". Irysa had good turn counts on his run and managed to get a lot of people off the ground. Are we all of a sudden assuming mega strict efficiency where only Avatar and Fred thrive? That pretty much shits all over discussing what like, the other 95% of the cast can do. Aside from maps where I dicked around, I've been able to pull turn counts around 4-7 per map which was still enough to get a handful of units off the ground. It's amazing how much shit the rest of the cast gets for not being Robin.

[-Cynthia-]

Not to hate on Irysa or anything here, but he took 15 turns for Chapter 11 for instance to spread out Exp which is way more than you need to beat that map. I'm not saying the OP needs to care about low turncounts or anything, but they should probably be aware that they will need to take extra turns to spoonfeed certain units kills or else they'll fall far behind the curve.

[Draco]

Try not to argue, please (though it does seem to be dying down a bit?).

I just finished chapter 4 and haven't done Donnel's paralogue yet.

How do I do those gray box things where SSLPers put the stats of their units?

Once I find out, I'll post the stats for my units. Chrom is a little underleveled and I'm kinda worried.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Reason