I hate reinforcements.

[jdb1984]

You get very little warning that they're coming at all, you have no idea when or from what side, they attack the same turn they appear, and since you don't have any idea what's coming, you can't position your troops in a way to be sure you'll survive.

In Naga's Voice, things were going well (despite the fact that I had to restart the level once). I took out half the reinforcements and was in a position to take on the other half. Then we get pegasus knights, which weren't much of a problem thanks to some strategic planning. After that turn, all but one of my troops were in a large safe zone, Nowi has maxed out level in Wyvren Rider, and would be promoted once I finished.

Then they decide to have some Bow Knight reinforcements charge in and fill Griffon Rider Panne full of holes. No warning, no chance to counter, no nothing. So, thanks to something I did not know was even going to come, I have to restart the chapter.

Shouldn't failure be because of poor planning due to what's on the screen, not something you had no way of knowing was going to even show up?

[Icarusu]

reinforcements always screw me up.

[Icon of Sin]

Oh please, this game is pretty lenient about reinforcements, which are actually almost always mentionned. The same chapter you're complaining about does have Cervantes mention them, and I quote :

End of Turn 3

Cervantes
Heh ha, yes! "Come, reinforcements," said the spider to...the...other spiders.

Get back once you play FE5 where they're unpredictable, never mentionned and sometimes last up to sixty turns in escape maps that all your units must leave before the main character unless you want them gone for a while.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Woodshooter

[jdb1984]

Oh please, this game is pretty lenient about reinforcements, which are actually almost always mentionned. The same chapter you're complaining about does have Cervantes mention them.

Get back once you play FE5 where they're unpredictable, never mentionned and sometimes last up to sixty turns in escape maps that all your units must leave before the main character unless you want them gone for a while.

Does he mention them? Yes.

Does he mention 3+ waves, with Bow knights ready to nail any flier that happens to be too close to the bottom? And is it fair that Panne gets nailed by two of them before I even have a chance to counter or move? No to both questions.

[yewfelles]

They are irritating, but your best bet is probably to position your units with notable weaknesses (fliers, usually, though in some cases mounted units if the enemies have a Beastkiller - this doesn't happen very often IIRC but worth noting) on the inside of a defensive formation or just far from the ends of the map where units are likely to respawn.

They can be a little irksome to plan for on harder difficulties, since they're almost guaranteed to be stronger than you on Lunatic unless you grind, but it's definitely not impossible (and worse in some games like stated above, though I've yet to play FE5).

[Comet]

Does he mention them? Yes.

Does he mention 3+ waves, with Bow knights ready to nail any flier that happens to be too close to the bottom? And is it fair that Panne gets nailed by two of them before I even have a chance to counter or move? No to both questions.

tbh, you should have took a safer approach and done either of the following: 1. Wait them out. 2. Don't go near the stairs.

[Icon of Sin]

Does he mention 3+ waves, with Bow knights ready to nail any flier that happens to be too close to the bottom? And is it fair that Panne gets nailed by two of them before I even have a chance to counter or move? No to both questions.

Where would you think reinforcements come from? No one went past Cervantes and horses don't swim in this game so they can't come from the sides. Pincer attacks like this are an effective and rather common strategy in Fire Emblem games.

As far as what types of reinforcements come in, chances are they're probably going to be the same as enemies already present on the map. I do remember there was a few Bow Knights and it would make sense to have mounted units attack from behind so they could catch up with you faster than infantry while you're progressing north. Valm is also said to have superior cavalry.

Besides there's so much water around the map that your flyers are probably better off there.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Woodshooter

[Alertcircuit]

At least they don't get to move on the same turn they show up anymore (glares at FE6)

[Elieson]

Where would you think reinforcements come from? No one went past Cervantes and horses don't swim in this game so they can't come from the sides. Pincer attacks like this are an effective and rather common strategy in Fire Emblem games.

As far as what types of reinforcements come in, chances are they're probably going to be the same as enemies already present on the map. I do remember there was a few Bow Knights and it would make sense to have mounted units attack from behind so they could catch up with you faster than infantry while you're progressing north. Valm is also said to have superior cavalry.

Besides there's so much water around the map that your flyers are probably better off there.

On my first attempt of that chapter, I didn't expect reinforcements to fly in from the sides and to swarm up from the south in multiple waves.

my .02

[Hoshino Sora]

Whenever I want reinforcements to train on, they're always on the other side of the map and it takes forever to get to them with low movement units . Whenever I want them halfway across the map because I'm training my really weak units off of kill steals, they're always right behind the weakest units in the map. But at this point I literally played this game so many times that I've memorized where they come from, so it's not that much of a problem for me anymore (unless it's like 1 in the morning and I haven't slept in days, then I make really stupid mistakes).

[Logience]

This again? Ugh, when I heard this nitpick brought up on Extra Credits, I can't even begin to describe my disgust.

Look, I get that nobody likes Chapter 16 and Hard/Lunatic Mode's moving-enemy-turn reinforcements, but COME ON. You can't take a part of the series so heavily ingrained into it and rip it out just because it catches you off-guard! You're supposed to PLAN AHEAD for reinforcements by moving as a group, junctioning everyone, and mopping up the predeployed enemies ASAP. You're actually getting off really damn easy in this game, too. Not only do you get announcements of caution for every map will have reinforcements (even up to Chapter 23, which is the last map besides the final chapter with them!!), but they also added Normal Mode's FE7-style non-moving reinforcements! And if that's not enough, you also have Casual Mode, which affects no part of the gameplay, and only exists in case people don't want to go through multiple replays of the same level just to keep all their units alive! I mean, without the factor of reinforcements, the game is really damn predictable, with the only X-factors being recruitable enemies!

EDIT: Oh, and to nitpick further:

Does he mention 3+ waves, with Bow knights ready to nail any flier that happens to be too close to the bottom? And is it fair that Panne gets nailed by two of them before I even have a chance to counter or move? No to both questions.

Oh, then what do you think should have happened? Cervantes saying "Moo ha ha! Soon, I will have 4 Pegasus Knights and 2 Falcon Knights ambush them from the west and east on turn 4, then on turn 6, three Bow Knights will attack from their flank! There's no way I can lose!"? Because IMO that doesn't seem quite right.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Logience

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Look, I get that nobody likes Chapter 16 and Hard/Lunatic Mode's moving-enemy-turn reinforcements, but COME ON. You can't take a part of the series so heavily ingrained into it and rip it out just because it catches you off-guard! You're supposed to PLAN AHEAD for reinforcements by moving as a group, junctioning everyone, and mopping up the predeployed enemies ASAP. You're actually getting off really damn easy in this game, too. Not only do you get announcements of caution for every map will have reinforcements (even up to Chapter 23, which is the last map besides the final chapter with them!!), but they also added Normal Mode's FE7-style non-moving reinforcements!

Um, maybe this is just difficulty differences, as I've never played below Lunatic, but reinforcements are definitely a thing in chapters 24 and 25. Chapter 24 has the cavalry and wyverns popping out of the forts and chapter 25 has them show up from just about every edge of the map over time (although, given the ease of Galeforce rushing this one, it can be easy to not notice the map has reinforcements).

[Logience]

Okay, I admit that I'm wrong on that account, but still, it gives you heads-up as far as the third-last chapter before the endgame! And 24 and 25 still have them coming out of the obvious forts, too. There's really no extra threat.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Chapter 24 has them coming out of the forts. Chapter 25 does not. It does some weird rotation where it'll spawn stuff in one or two of eight locations where the eight locations are the four corners and the four middle edges of the map. This can possibly be surprising, depending on which side(s) of the central mountain the player decides to send the army at which point during the map. I'd argue that the Endgame reinforcements are typically less harmful because aside from the very obvious spawn point sigils, half of them spawn in a place where they have to spend three or four turns moving to reach the area around the final boss.

[Logience]

Chapter 24 has them coming out of the forts. Chapter 25 does not. It does some weird rotation where it'll spawn stuff in one or two of eight locations where the eight locations are the four corners and the four middle edges of the map. This can possibly be surprising, depending on which side(s) of the central mountain the player decides to send the army at which point during the map. I'd argue that the Endgame reinforcements are typically less harmful because aside from the very obvious spawn point sigils, half of them spawn in a place where they have to spend three or four turns moving to reach the area around the final boss.

Sounds just like FE6's reinforcements in Chapter 18S.

[Airship Canon]

At least they don't get to move on the same turn they show up anymore (glares at FE6)

Slambush is the name of the game on Hard, Lunatic, and Lunatic+.

[BrightBow]

This again? Ugh, when I heard this nitpick brought up on Extra Credits, I can't even begin to describe my disgust.

Look, I get that nobody likes Chapter 16 and Hard/Lunatic Mode's moving-enemy-turn reinforcements, but COME ON. You can't take a part of the series so heavily ingrained into it and rip it out just because it catches you off-guard!

You're supposed to PLAN AHEAD for reinforcements by moving as a group, junctioning everyone, and mopping up the predeployed enemies ASAP. You're actually getting off really damn easy in this game, too. Not only do you get announcements of caution for every map will have reinforcements (even up to Chapter 23, which is the last map besides the final chapter with them!!), but they also added Normal Mode's FE7-style non-moving reinforcements! And if that's not enough, you also have Casual Mode, which affects no part of the gameplay, and only exists in case people don't want to go through multiple replays of the same level just to keep all their units alive! I mean, without the factor of reinforcements, the game is really damn predictable, with the only X-factors being recruitable enemies!

Ignoring that Extra Credits was not making a review about the game or anything like that but was just using this as an example for a larger point about game design in general, it's hardly a "Nitpick" when this mechanic is omnipresent in this game and used in almost every map.

And this mechanic is not heavily ingrained into the series. It hasn't be seen since FE6 until the remakes suddenly felt the need to reintroduce them. Even Radiant Dawn's hard mode didn't have them. And that is the mode whose idea of fair includes to disable the display of enemy movement ranges. And FE4 and 5 shouldn't even count. In 4, they are completely predictable because they always follow set rules. I never encountered them at all during my first playthrough because I never allowed the leader to escape back to home castle. And in FE5, they are rarely a immediate treat for various reasons. Like in Chapter 2x, were they spawn on islands that none of your units can even reach. They are also not a threat for your fragile healers since they will just capture them instead of killing them. I have the tendency to forget that the mechanic even exist in Thracia because it never actually matters.

But even if that was the case, a bad mechanic is a bad mechanic. And just like healers needing to get attacked in order to gain any EXP, this was a mechanic rightfully abandoned. If someone dies to instantly moving reinforcements in Awakening, it is because of bad luck. If everyone survives, it was because of dumb luck. Either way, you haven't earned the outcome yourself.

Even FE5's legendary teleporter tiles are fairer because at least they never killed you instantly, so you still had a chance to turn things around. Adding warnings doesn't justify them. Or do you think those warp tiles would be fairer if you were warned that they exist even if you still didn't know were they are?

EDIT: Oh, and to nitpick further:

Oh, then what do you think should have happened? Cervantes saying "Moo ha ha! Soon, I will have 4 Pegasus Knights and 2 Falcon Knights ambush them from the west and east on turn 4, then on turn 6, three Bow Knights will attack from their flank! There's no way I can lose!"? Because IMO that doesn't seem quite right.

It seems to less right then Cervantes randomly saying: ""Come, reinforcements," said the spider to...the...other spiders."

Of course if they simply wouldn't instantly move, nobody would need to announce anything. But personally I would rather see the mechanic improved.

Edited July 29, 2014 by BrightBow

[Logience]

Then how about compromise? Reinforcements can show up on enemy turns, but they either can't attack or can't move?

[Irysa]

I dunno, for all the negatives that the newer player will have with same turn reinforcements, I also don't think it's imperative that the game has to be explictly fair all the time. Reinforcements that actually function as a "hurry the fuck up" mechanism are generally speaking easier to deal with than the other kind, but often plugging forts is another good strategy that can be utilised.

If enemy fliers just fly in off the side of the map in a cramped area and kill somebody that's more of a problem with map design than reinforcements.

Honestly, some things in Fire Emblem are definitely more fun with all the info in front of you. It has effects both ways, when you are able to actually consider reinforcements into your puzzle in the first place, but if you don't know you have to adapt and change up your strategy.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Irysa

[Florete]

Get back once you play FE5 where they're unpredictable, never mentionned and sometimes last up to sixty turns in escape maps that all your units must leave before the main character unless you want them gone for a while.

"It's worse in another game so stop complaining about it in this game."

No. If FE5's was worse, then it was that much more poorly designed. It justifies nothing.

That said, the reinforcements in Awakening aren't too bad. I don't like the spawn-moving reinforcements by any means, but this game usually has the courtesy to tell you when and where they will come, making them mostly bearable.

They don't really bother me anymore because I either know where they all come from or beat maps before they appear nowadays.

[BrightBow]

Then how about compromise? Reinforcements can show up on enemy turns, but they either can't attack or can't move?

You mean just like it was done from 7 to 10 and the Normal modes in the (3)DS games?

That would be fine of course but personally I would rather see them being done like for example summoned monsters in Tear Ring Saga. They could act immediately after being summoned so you could not take them down before they had a chance to move. But the position of the summoner told you were the monsters would come from and the staff in his inventory told you what was coming your way. So if they still manage to kill someone, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Edited July 29, 2014 by BrightBow

[Logience]

Actually, I was thinking like the AI of Izuka's summoned Feral Ones in FE10 4-5. The turn they're summoned, they stay fixed in their spot, but will attack anyone in range. The turn after, they can move, but they can't attack.

Edit: I see you there, Integrity.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Logience

[Roflolxp54]

Try Lunatic+ difficulty, especially in Classic mode. Not only do the reinforcements act immediately upon arrival, you also do not know what randomly generated skills they have on until they actually engage your units, or until the next Player Phase starts.

That means that any one of the enemy units can have Counter equipped which can be very dangerous especially if the targeted unit can retaliate at 1 range and cannot OHKO them. Not to mention the possibility of Luna+ and Hawkeye mooks running around that can potentially finish off your units.