Sacred Stones No-Seth Tier List

[Rewjeo]

Tier List FAQ by Vykan12.

So, I have time to do FE related stuff now, and I wanted to get back into debating. I thought FE8 tiering was interesting, but the current tier list has disappeared into a mass of pages (okay, so it's probably on like page 2), and on FEG it hasn't been touched except by some bots linking to all sorts of strange things. Looking at the current list, there are certainly some problems. And then I thought "Why not do a no-Seth tier list? After all, it's easily definable and offers some new discussion, particularly about earlygame!" And here we are. Despite having never lead a tier list before, I will try and be unbiased for moving units on the list. If I fail to do that, whatever current member of the debating group that happens to be a mod at any given time has my permission in advance to edit the tier list to make it more accurate. Oh, and the base tier lists are the ones currently on FEG with Seth chopped off.

Sacred Stones Hard Mode

Seth is simply not deployed after chapter 3. Before then, he needs to be not moved unless moving him affects the chapter less (Chapter 1).

Any unit can be used, but the better a unit is, the more likely they are to be used. We aren't using just the best units. If you're debating about a unit, it is assumed that they're being used.

Further, a team isn't chosen randomly. If two units compete for resources and fill the same role, then the player won't use both of them. And the reverse is true, as well: if two units benefit from both being in play at the same time, then the player will usually use both if he/she uses one.

The idea here is that the game is completed as quickly as possible while still being reliable. A reliable strategy is better than a slightly faster but luck based one. But, as stated above, this does not mean that the player will always complete it in the fastest possible way because the team will vary.

[spoiler=Eirika's Route]

-Top-

Franz

Vanessa

-High-

Colm

Eirika

Gerik

Tethys

Kyle

Forde

Moulder

-Upper Mid-

Saleh

Lute

Artur

Natasha

Joshua

Ephraim

Innes

Garcia

Cormag

Duessel

Tana

-Lower Mid-

Myrrh

Dozla

-Low-

Syrene

Gilliam

Ross

Neimi

Knoll

L'Arachel

Rennac

-Bottom-

Marisa

Ewan

Amelia

[spoiler=Ephraim's Route]

-Top-

Franz

Duessel

Ephraim

Vanessa

-High-

Colm

Cormag

Gerik

Tethys

Kyle

Forde

Moulder

-Upper Mid-

Lute

Artur

Natasha

Joshua

Eirika

Garcia

Tana

Myrrh

-Lower Mid-

Saleh

Dozla

-Low-

Syrene

Gilliam

Ross

Neimi

Knoll

L'Arachel

Rennac

Innes

-Bottom-

Marisa

Ewan

Amelia

[spoiler=Changelog]

June 4, 2011: Colm out of Top

June 20/21, 2011: Syrene from top of Bottom to bottom of Low

June 27, 2011: Lute and Artur down from High to the top of Upper Mid, Gilliam<Garcia

July 8, 2011: Gilliam/Ross/Neimi dropped to Low, Syrene to the top of Low

August 11, 2011: Eir. Saleh>Lute and Artur, Eir. Tana from top of Lower Mid to bottom of Upper Mid

[spoiler=Current Discussions]

Franz in his own tier? Eph. Ephraim, Eph. Duessel, Vanessa in Top Tier w/ Franz?

Neimi<Knoll, Rennac, L'arachel

Lute+Artur Down

Giliam Down

Garcia<Eir. Cormag, Duessel

Tana up

Joshua up

Eph. Gerik<Kyle, Forde

Eir. Innes>Ephraim

Syrene up

Colm far down

Eir. Eirika's position vs. Eph. Ephraim's

Positions in Low/Bottom Tier and where in that area Ross, Neimi, and Gilliam should drop to

Eir. Saleh up, Eph. Saleh up/down

Edited August 11, 2011 by Rewjeo

[Randoman]

I think Moulder should go higher, though not above Tethys. After promotion, he has really good combat due to his high con and all around good stats (barring Luck, which shouldn't be much of an issue anyways). I'll think of a more specific position once the other below issues are attended to or explained more.

And I think Artur should go above Lute. Even if Lute has better support options, Artur gets good utility after promotion with C staves as a Bishop (and Slayer as well, which could help out in all monster chapters and preserving weapon uses, even if the former is a bit overkill). Also, Lute's con will slow her down early on (though a Mage Knight promotion should fix it sufficiently). In addition, I don't think anima magic has that sufficient of an advantage over light magic in Sacred Stones, due to there being a relatively even amount of dark and anima magic casting enemies in the game and the light's greater weight for tomes not affecting Artur as much as anima's weight for tomes affecting Lute.

Also (this is a question, not a suggestion for a change), what exactly is the reason for the big gap between Kyle and Forde? I can understand why Kyle is considered better, but is Forde really that much worse than him?

FIrst time in charge of a tier list? Heh, this is my first time participating in a tier list discussion.

And uh, for the tier list veterans, go easy on me, okay? I'm not really trying to go proclaiming that my views are final. I'm just trying to give this tier list stuff a try, and see the reasoning for placements. I'm more than happy to accept critiquing on my suggestions.

[Integrity]

Duessel is much too high in Ephraim's list. He's a good unit - he's even a great unit, High Tier material definitely - but he's not > Vanessa.

[-Cynthia-]

Gilliam seems a bit high on both routes, not sure where Gilliam>Garcia really comes from. Garcia doesn't face as much WTD in the earlygame, his base Spd is a bit higher (allowing him to double really slow things and avoid being doubled) and he has more Mov. Both Gilliam and Garcia are poor long term units, but Garcia should have more short term usage.

Seconding Artur>Lute and Vanessa>Duessel.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

IMO, Seth is good enough even in these conditions for top tier.

[Radiant Dragon]

Gerik could go below Kyle and Forde on Ephraim's route, and Innes could move above Ephraim on Eirika's, both due to availability.

[Rewjeo]

I think Moulder should go higher, though not above Tethys. After promotion, he has really good combat due to his high con and all around good stats (barring Luck, which shouldn't be much of an issue anyways). I'll think of a more specific position once the other below issues are attended to or explained more.

The problem is his level. Healing isn't getting you that much EXP, so he'd be happy to just to reach promotion above level ~10-12.

And I think Artur should go above Lute. Even if Lute has better support options, Artur gets good utility after promotion with C staves as a Bishop (and Slayer as well, which could help out in all monster chapters and preserving weapon uses, even if the former is a bit overkill). Also, Lute's con will slow her down early on (though a Mage Knight promotion should fix it sufficiently). In addition, I don't think anima magic has that sufficient of an advantage over light magic in Sacred Stones, due to there being a relatively even amount of dark and anima magic casting enemies in the game and the light's greater weight for tomes not affecting Artur as much as anima's weight for tomes affecting Lute.

Both need to go down, I think, but I also feel that Artur>Lute.

Also (this is a question, not a suggestion for a change), what exactly is the reason for the big gap between Kyle and Forde? I can understand why Kyle is considered better, but is Forde really that much worse than him?

I have no idea. I just copied the other list over to have a base to work with. Although it's only Artur/Lute between them. I'm not quite sure how that happened, but I think Lute/Artur will be dropping anyways.

FIrst time in charge of a tier list? Heh, this is my first time participating in a tier list discussion.

And uh, for the tier list veterans, go easy on me, okay? I'm not really trying to go proclaiming that my views are final. I'm just trying to give this tier list stuff a try, and see the reasoning for placements. I'm more than happy to accept critiquing on my suggestions.

Well, you seem to be having a better first time than a lot of people.

Duessel is much too high in Ephraim's list. He's a good unit - he's even a great unit, High Tier material definitely - but he's not > Vanessa.

That was one of my thoughts already.

Gilliam seems a bit high on both routes, not sure where Gilliam>Garcia really comes from. Garcia doesn't face as much WTD in the earlygame, his base Spd is a bit higher (allowing him to double really slow things and avoid being doubled) and he has more Mov. Both Gilliam and Garcia are poor long term units, but Garcia should have more short term usage.

Seconding Artur>Lute and Vanessa>Duessel.

I think Gilliam needs to plummet. Chapter 1 he helps (being one third of your army) but he's not spectacular. Chapter 2 he sucks. Chapter 3 he sucks. Chapter 4 he's alright. If he's managed to break 4 SPD, he's actually great for that top left corner. Chapter 5, his DEF can help. Chapter 6? Too large an area and we've got Franz, Eirika, Joshua, and Garcia who are all pretty darn competent combatants by now, and some of the other units might be pretty solid by now, too, depending on what the player has been doing with them. Plus Gill hasn't been all that good up until now. And by chapter 7, I just don't feel like he can keep up even combat-wise.

Gerik could go below Kyle and Forde on Ephraim's route, and Innes could move above Ephraim on Eirika's, both due to availability.

Agreed on Gerik, and I can see the second. But Ephraim's forced-ness, 7 MOV for the last chunk of the game, and PRF weapons as well as, you know, an enemy phase makes me a little unsure about it.

Would anyone object to Franz (and maybe Vanessa?) getting his(their) own tier? He's just so helpful early on, and I, for example, had him at level 10 in chapter 5. I think he was like 14 going into chapter 7, so that meant something along the lines of 16/1 in chapter 8.

I also think Colm could drop. Unless we need to unlock more than five things or we don't have enough keys, a mounted unit with keys does his job better. He's not obsoleted, but that does account for a lot of what he does. And then there's the question of how much of an impact the treasure makes anyways.

[Integrity]

Franz and Vanessa should not have their own tier.

[Radiant Dragon]

Agreed on Gerik, and I can see the second. But Ephraim's forced-ness, 7 MOV for the last chunk of the game, and PRF weapons as well as, you know, an enemy phase makes me a little unsure about it.

Well, he's not helping much to clear Chapter 10 except maybe clear a path to recruit Marisa, but in Chapter 11 there are walls and a horde of Gargoyles in the east, in Chapter 12 he's one of the best (maybe the best) units to kill Baels on Peaks, Chapter 13 has ballista plus the chokepoint in the immediate east, and there are more walls in Chapter 14. Even after Ephraim re-joins and promotes, Innes still ORKO's most things at 2-range, and may even have the rank for Nidhogg. Plus, bows are effective against Dracozombies for some reason.

Would anyone object to Franz (and maybe Vanessa?) getting his(their) own tier? He's just so helpful early on, and I, for example, had him at level 10 in chapter 5. I think he was like 14 going into chapter 7, so that meant something along the lines of 16/1 in chapter 8.

I say just move Colm and Duessel out of Top and that should be fine. Ephraim deserves to be in Top on his route.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Ephraim!Duessel second best? Hell no. To quote the others, he's a great unit, but he sure as hell doesn't belong at the top of Top. Vanessa is available FROM THE THIRD FULL CHAPTER and flies all over the map. She laughs at basically every enemy unit, even axe users, after a certain point because of her godly speed and godly supports. She should stay right below Franz, and Duessel should drop to right above Colm.

Also, consider Eirika!Gerik above Eirika? Mostly because he can take the Crest immediately (and he comes with it, lol) and either get 7 MOV or Axes, either of which he can use well. And he'll still turn out all right because of that broken HP/STR growth he has. Eirika has forced promotion and mono-swords, neither of which helps her in the long run against Pallies and Generals.

As for Artur>Lute, he has better durability overall but Lute has that godly magic growth, and even if she isn't doubling, she targets RES, something generic enemies (barring mages and mogalls) refuse to acknowledge. And she has the ability of getting the first or second Guiding Ring in both paths to promote early to Mage Knight and double with Thunder. However, Artur suffers less AS loss so he can double more and not worry about instant death, especially because by promotion he'll be able to deal with WTD. Lute needs to have a lot of speed to deal with WTD because of Dark's power.

[Anouleth]

All of this applies to Ephraim Route.

Franz and Vanessa should not have their own tier.

Franz really is Just That Good <tm>. Let me put it this way - it's not unreasonable to have a level 15 Franz coming out of Chapter 8, and you can just promote him and have Seth Lite charge through the rest of the game.

I definitely agree on Vanessa. Especially in Ephraim Route, she's not particularly awesome because her combat stinks. Her only real advantages from flying utility come from Chapter 7 and Chapter 20. In other chapters, because able to rescue drop with flight is nothing that awesome. In Chapter 13, for instance, there are units such as Dozla, Cormag, and Tana that can contribute to drop someone across the river on turn 1. In Chapter 15, any of your fliers can take the job of ferrying Rennac to grab the boots. I don't think she even deserves Top Tier, to be honest, especially when you consider that Moulder/Natasha aren't Top Tier.

Moulder and Natasha contribute with staves throughout the game. You have no other Restore users in Chapter 13 and only one potential other Warp user in the entire game, and I have reservations on how viable it is to get Saleh to A Staves. Both should be in Top Tier.

Colm should move down. He contributes basically nothing in terms of combat and very little in terms of items since Chest Keys can cover the good ones. This is especially true in Eirika Route where you can buy Chest Keys immediately after Chapter 9.

Lute should move down. She levels like a snail. That's not to say she's OMG awful, but consider that Lute can reach level 10 around chapter 11 (which is when I had a level ~14 Garcia). Promote her straight away:

10/1 Lute

24HP 14MAG 10SKL 11SPD 12LUK 6DEF 11RES

14/1 Garcia

40HP 15.5STR 13SKL 11SPD 7LUK 9.5DEF 4.5RES

16/1 Forde

34HP 12STR 13.5SKL 13SPD 12LUK 12DEF 5RES

Now, Lute has her own advantages, such as staff rank and +1 move, but Garcia also has significantly better combat due to his huge durability lead (especially against the all-too common lance users). He will also soon get access to Garm, giving him an insurmountable speed lead. Is there really a need for Lute to be an entire tier above Garcia? Of course not. Is there a need for Lute to be in the same tier as Forde when he clearly has the advantage on her? Of course not. Lute into mid, right below Garcia.

In addition, this tier list in general commits some of the typical errors that most Sacred Stones tier lists do, such as Syrene in bottom and Gilliam not in bottom tier.

[Rewjeo]

I don't know that Ephraim has the same level of impact as Franz, though. Franz is hugely important early, and then once we get to Ephraim's route Franz beats him in every stat except like, LUK, and has 3 MOV and swords and access to that silver lance. I mean, if you look ahead to chapter 17 with a 20/1 Ephraim, Franz only has to be ~20/6 to have very similar stats. Now, Ephraim has both Siegmund and Reginleif (maybe) but Franz can go for either Vidofnir or Audhulma and has that 1 MOV. And Franz has been winning pretty handily up until now.

[dondon151]

Why doesn't this tier list look more like my tier list =/

[Anouleth]

Why doesn't this tier list look more like my tier list =/

Because the creator obviously isn't as intelligent and wonderful as you :3

But there are significant differences between Seth and Sethless play. Unpromoted units such as Lute, Garcia, Franz, Forde, and Kyle are a good deal more important (although obviously Lute doesn't deserve High Tier with her meh speed and crappy durability) because they have a reasonable chance to gain experience. And obviously that reduces the value of late-joining units.

[Rewjeo]

Why doesn't this tier list look more like my tier list =/

You ask too much of me, your holiness.

[Mekkah]

Yeah, this is very outdated, might even be from "back when we believed in supports". However, growth units obviously do have more potential to contribute now that we don't have a Seth until Franz promotes.

[Paperblade]

Yeah, this is very outdated, might even be from "back when we believed in supports". However, growth units obviously do have more potential to contribute now that we don't have a Seth until Franz promotes.

I was able to get B and C supports (maybe even an A late-ish) when we did our FEG draft, and I won (sure, no one else finished, but I won dammit).

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Yeah, this is very outdated, might even be from "back when we believed in supports". However, growth units obviously do have more potential to contribute now that we don't have a Seth until Franz promotes.

Some supports are fast enough, though, even if you're not grinding. Vanessa can do 100% better with Moulder C, for example. 1 atk, 1 def, and 5 avo is better than nothing.

[dondon151]

That's a support bonus that she'll never see and that would never really help her in the first place, since she's probably quite a bit more than 1 atk short of 2HKOing at most points in the game.

[Rewjeo]

Any comments on what's been discussed?

Moulder up (Disagree)

Lute+Artur down (I agree)

Artur>Lute (I agree)

Gilliam down really really far (I agree)

Eph. Ephraim out of top (I agree)

Eph. Duessel out of top (I agree)

Eph. Gerik<Kyle,Forde (I agree)

Eir. Innes>Ephraim (Disagree)

Colm out of top (I agree)

Vanessa out of top-leaves Franz in his own tier (I agree)

Syrene up (I agree)

I think this is all of the serious stuff that's been brought up so far.

[Anouleth]

I don't think that Eph. Duessel should move down. Let's look at it this way: Duessel joins in Chapter 10, and he is simply the best character you have in terms of combat. He is the most durable, is fast enough to double most enemy types and 2HKO with a Javelin or Hand Axe, and is likely the only person who can wield the Silver Axe against Beran, the Deathgoyle, or the Cyclops, and your best Garm canditate. He's also good with the Dragon Axe against Valter. Now, if you compare this to Gerik, who joins significantly later and lacks the same awesome durability of Duessel (better speed, though). Clearly, Duessel is significantly better and deserves a tier gap between the two.

It should be noted that while Ephraim has his own PRF weapon, Innes has Nidhogg, which while not quite prf, has basically no competition because Neimi is so bad.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Anouleth

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

At a glance:

-Eir Eirika at the top of High seems off; sword lock, meh durability, and meh offense excepting Rapier and post promotion, but then again, the rest of the people in high aren't easy picks to go over her.

-Tana three tiers below Vanessa?

-Moulder and Natasha should both go up. Sethless restores the importance of their healing.

-What prompted Artur > Lute? MK > Bishop, both suck at durability, and Lute's offense is better for longer in the game, IIRC.

-Consider Eph Gerik vs Joshua: at its core 7 1/2 chapters vs axes on promotion. Mind you, Josh is pretty cool during early on, sporting probably the best offense until Ephraim and his defense isn't too much of a problem. He's also got Audhulma pretty much locked up.

-Eph Duessel is cool and should stay in top.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Moulder up (Disagree)

Moulder's healing utility is too good to pass up and he can promote at Level 10, spam Elfire with no AS loss, and still heal.

Lute+Artur down (I agree)

Artur>Lute (I agree)

Gilliam down really really far (I agree)

Yes.

Eph. Ephraim out of top (I agree)

Eph. Duessel out of top (I agree)

Not out of Top, but below Vanessa at any rate.

Eph. Gerik<Kyle,Forde (I agree)

Yes.

Eir. Innes>Ephraim (Disagree)

Innes only lacks an EP but has five full chapters that help him. There's enough dragonknights and falconknights he can take out. Not to mention he is really Nidhogg's only decent heir (unless Ranger!Gerik somehow goes S Bows, or Ranger)\

Colm out of top (I agree)

Yep. Considering his usefulness is really limited to chests and he has shaky combat so promotion is on the fence.

Vanessa out of top-leaves Franz in his own tier (I agree)

Her shaky combat <<<<< Her Rescue-Drop capabilities.

Syrene up (I agree)

Yes.

[Shadow Mir]

Moulder's healing utility is too good to pass up and he can promote at Level 10, spam Elfire with no AS loss, and still heal.

I doubt an early promoted Moulder's all that great on offense, even with Elfire; 12 speed and 8 mag isn't that good.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[Caliban of Sycorax]

I doubt an early promoted Moulder's all that great on offense, even with Elfire; 12 speed and 7 mag isn't that good.

Not saying he HAS to promote. It's just the idea that he can use Elfire immediately with no AS loss.