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SR Apoth Cleared No DLC + No Rally


Airship Canon
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...Last year, it was "No Limit Breaker, No Aggressor, and No Rallies". This year, it's "No DLC at all (except Prep and the map itself)" + "No Rallies".

Miiverse Post that covers it [and the random that told me I was gonna wipe]

Also team coverage.

Tumblr Tag: #wannoob punches dinosaurs

Video:

Some notes: The team used here is A LOT stronger than the one used last year, so despite the additional restrictions, it actually performed BETTER and the run was easier/smoother.

Lucina+ZerkerRobin is OP, just sayin'.

Severa just hard counters Invincisorcs.

3 60 Speeders for Thronie and his ilk make a big difference.

"Ruinator" (AKA the Critical build) is not, in fact, useless, and Nah really needs to /not/ dual guard for Laurent all the bloody time.

More notes for the curious:
Total recorded time: 2 hours, 46 minutes, 54 seconds. (So assumedly, the video will be 1 hour, 23 minutes, 27 seconds + some extra time)

There were 3 wipes due to some very simple and stupid mistakes. They were exclusively "My Bad", and not "RNG said **** YOU", so this run actually is rather deep within "Feasible" for others to try, but that said, I did spend a fair deal of time theorycrafting to get it done.

Edited by Airship Canon
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...Unit screens will be in the video, but otherwise can befound on Miiverse [listed link], and Tumblr [Here]

Otherwise, basic rundown:

Chrom - Sniper, Sumia - Sage

Sumia!Lucina - Great Lord, [+SPD/-DEF] Robin - Berserker [60 Speed attained]

Sumia!Lucina!Morgan - Hero, Vaike!Gerome - Berserker [The Lancekiller redux, 61 Speed]

Stahl!Severa - Assassin, Gregor!Yarne - Berserker [60 Speed]

Ricken!Inigo- Sage, Gaius!Noire - Dark Flier

Virion!Brady - Sage, Donnel!Kjelle - Hero

Henry!Owain - Sage, Chrom!Cynthia - Dark Flier

Lon'Qu!Laurent - Sorcerer, Libra!Nah - Sage

Olivia - Dancer

Minerva - Valkyrie

Raquesis - Valkyrie

Nanna - Valkyrie

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How much room is there for variation in your setup?

A fair amount-- I figure, in someways, the old team could've done it, but it'd have been very difficult.

It wasn't exactly something that is followed as a turn-by-turn thing like opening-of-lunatic or a V/V sweep.

Being forward it was more a "Standard" run, making heavy use of Luna/etc.

Key points:

1. Multiple 60 Speed units. In a way, it can be done with less, but--

A 60 Speed unit can:

* fight Thronie at range 2, so at least 1 is probably necessary. If you don't have something that can apply meaningful damage to Thronie, him and his doubles will wipe you.

* Double Soldiers, Invincisorc trash, and just about every non-boss.

2. Something to deal with Anna. Without DLC and Rallies, you're not really punching the 66 Speed, 48 DEF Survival threshold, and passing around a Double Bow, while potentially feasible, likely won't cut it.

3. A Strategy to deal with Invincisorc. While Thronie is the beefgate, Invincisorc is incredibly difficult to cut down and will need specific counters. [i used Stahl!Severa for this]... whatever the choice, whoever's getting thrown at him needs 56+ Speed to not be doubled and killed. His trash isn't to be underestimated either [my Lucina hard countered the trash].

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That's for ingame. This is Apo with a ton of restrictions, and Chrom wants to be a Sniper both to help poke and to take better advantage of his DS+ (he won't be at 100% even with it, but he'll be one of the closest units, which is helpful).

BK Chrom is pretty good postgame, too. Maybe even Chrom's best class.

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Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but no DLC? Aren't Minerva, Raquesis, and Nanna SpotPass, doesn't that count as DLC in a way? 8U

Spotpass is spotpass. It's timereleased vanilla content prebuilt into the game.

Nothing unusual happens if you don't have an SD card and are looking at spotpass stuff.

It's not DLC, it's not even "Free DLC", it's just non-launch content.

Spotpass is basically WiFi shop.

DLC is defined here as "Non-vanilla" content, which is all paid DLC.

In the end, though I could do this with guest MUs taking their spots and Chrom for Charm.

Edited by Airship Canon
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Honestly, this was the best I've had in SR Apoth.

Perhaps, this is where Apoth's "Balance Point" lies. [To be honest, while that comes off as "reasonable", it should be higher]

It could, theoretically be yolo'd. [The reason I had such a hard time with the No Limit/Agg/Rally run in comparison was entirely team comp, but that team could, in theory have done this].

...But it's gonna be hard as hell to try that. If you went in with zero planning, you'll only get mauled. [Which, by all honesty, is EXACTLY what should happen to a hapless frodo entering a "final challenge"]

Setting out to win this challenge in particular, you'd have to actually strategize. Not just have some sound tactics. The map is simple tactically. On the other hand, what hard resources [which, does, despite some claims otherwise, come down to pairings. Characters are resource. Supports are resource. It's strategy.] get allocated where to allow for strategic character building, and actually planning out fights ahead of time make huge impacts. (E.G. going from 1 60 speed in last years assault with All+2 and Brides allowed, to 3 60 speed was a MASSIVE difference, since it allowed for more Thronie attack access. Running triple 'zerkers to get those 3 was also a massive firepower difference. ...Having two of those carry Aether/Luna for large PP offense [there's a reason why even though I acknowledge Vengeance as sound, it's not above Luna. It ties with Luna.] was solid as well.)

...This run didn't prove anything with the Meta. It just had some surprises [sumia!Lucina@Great Lord x Robin@Berserker being surprsingly strong as one] and proved that exceptionally low power SR Apoth isn't just possible, it's not "unfeasible" like had been previously thought.

Honestly it felt sorta like early game Lunatic at it's hardest parts.

...Don't ask about wave 2. I ****ed that up bad. What happened there was 100% me getting lucky. By all means I should've lost during the moment when Minerva got attacked. [Or maybe not. Post "craziness" analysis says that actually was "safe", as he couldn't 1 shot her without critting, and doesn't have the spd to double... her countering for a kill shouldn't have happened though.]

(Note, one of the occurances I planned for was Lucina taking a full Vengeance blast from an Invincisorc Trash Sorc...

... I didn't expect it to actually occur.

..good thing I planned for it, because it happened. (1:18:29, Trash mob took precisely 79 damage and countered with Vengeance... dealing 79 damage to Lucina.))

Edited by Airship Canon
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If you went in with zero planning, you'll only get mauled. [Which, by all honesty, is EXACTLY what should happen to a hapless frodo entering a "final challenge"]

Problem: Apo's enemy data isn't easily visible ingame due to the multiple wave design. If the difficulty was turned up so that only a perfectly prepared team could cut it, you'd be in big trouble- make a team designed to quash Wave 1, then get hit by something in Wave 2 you couldn't see coming or plan for. If your team isn't capable of dealing with it, you'll need to make tweaks to your team so you can take it- and minmax a whole new team for each wave that you don't get lucky on. You could just look the data up online, but forcing players to look stuff up tends to lower games' receptions. Or you could just brute force it with Dual Guards, but that would be more frustrating than Lunatic+ earlygame without a plan.

There's also the problem that 99.9% of people who play this game either couldn't do the required threshold calcs and simulations, or wouldn't care enough to spend weeks planning and executing the whole thing, but that's another story...

Anyway, you should do some Normal Apo challenges sometime, and see how far down it's possible to push that. It doesn't have the same ring to it as S.Apo, but there are a handful of things missing from it (Counter, Luna+, Vantage+, and time limits) that open up a very broad range of possibilities for different stunts.

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Problem: Apo's enemy data isn't easily visible ingame due to the multiple wave design. If the difficulty was turned up so that only a perfectly prepared team could cut it, you'd be in big trouble- make a team designed to quash Wave 1, then get hit by something in Wave 2 you couldn't see coming or plan for. If your team isn't capable of dealing with it, you'll need to make tweaks to your team so you can take it- and minmax a whole new team for each wave that you don't get lucky on. You could just look the data up online, but forcing players to look stuff up tends to lower games' receptions. Or you could just brute force it with Dual Guards, but that would be more frustrating than Lunatic+ earlygame without a plan.

There's also the problem that 99.9% of people who play this game either couldn't do the required threshold calcs and simulations, or wouldn't care enough to spend weeks planning and executing the whole thing, but that's another story...

Counter to your statement is a game I'm currently playing, lol.

Destiny [which is doing exceptionally well outside of the people who don't realize it's an MMO that just launched].

...Bungie outright stated "you're gonna need a guide. you're gonna need to communicate on forums." in regards to their high end.

Apo's a high end thing. Same deal.

The latter's a problem with the fanbase. Not wanting to use strategy in a strategy game is kinda ...dumb. >_>;

[but hey, people /still/ say Lunatic+ is a bad difficulty because they don't want to plan for the unexpected.]

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The latter's a problem with the fanbase. Not wanting to use strategy in a strategy game is kinda ...dumb. >_>;

[but hey, people /still/ say Lunatic+ is a bad difficulty because they don't want to plan for the unexpected.]

Honestly that's one of the only problems I have with Airship when it comes to "challenges".

He's always had the one opinion that Apotheosis should have had people like him in mind when it was designed.

It's supposed to make money.

I'm not being condescending when it comes to stating this, but the "elite" players like you are a serious minority. The amount of investment will not be worth it to make the DLC if the majority of people feel like there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO BEAT IT besides having to restart with the "proper" pairings. They'll tell their friends and therefore, losing money.

Do the developers REALLY expect they typical player to pour in hours into "tedious" calculations?

Their concept is that it is a "challenge" for most people, but also beatable no matter what suboptimal pairings or setups you pick.

You really need to stop bellyaching over the developer's design choices NOT giving you the ultimate challenge.

^No seriously, how many times have you complained about Apotheosis in this regard?

The spirit of Fire Emblem has always been self imposed restrictions. Not getting a permadeath is an example of that.

Edited by shadowofchaos
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The amount of investment will not be worth it to make the DLC if the majority of people feel like there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO BEAT IT besides having to restart with the "proper" pairings.

And a lot of people do that already. Even on this forum.

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And a lot of people do that already. Even on this forum.

I'm not sure the point you're trying to make with this... like...

If you mean: People already do that so it wouldn't do any harm, then you need to look at how much more people are much more casuals than the people on this forum that still take on the challenge of Apotheosis.

As much as Airship wants it to be, the purpose of Apotheosis design is not to defeat the player.

I really see it as "I'm complaining because it's not as hard as it was supposed to be so I can brag about it and be a special snowflake."

Edited by shadowofchaos
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Let me list the Apo optimized strategies in various restrictions:

Regular & Speedrun:

Lucina couple VVDS+ tanking + a few Gale-Luna hit & away.

LTC:

Balanced main-game pairs & Einherjar Valkyries.

Either of no-DLC-skill & no-rallies:

Vascela's FeMUxChrom

Both no-DLC & no-rallies:

This post.

Any updates?

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