Fire Emblem 8 Lunatic Special

[Lancer]

I didn't think "to spice things up" was an actual response because of how terrible it is. :|

But if the reason is literally "LOL WHY NOT" then yeah not interested.

Do you really need details on that? Alright, I'll give a run through it then.

1. It's more interesting to fight a female hero than a male hero boss. I have a custom animation that I'm working on for it, and I'd much rather showcase that than use what the game already has implemented.

2. Vanessa has always been pretty generic to me (gameplay and character), and I personally don't like her. Sure, Palla's personality is pretty much at the same level, but her growth rates and character design have always been more interesting to me. Pegasi who have garbage speed growths but high speed bases are more interesting to play than the run of the mill high skill/speed low str/def types.

3. I despise Lute for whatever reason. That, and I thought it would be more interesting to introduce a shaman than a mage. Plus, it gave me good practice with map sprites.

[eclipse]

You are free to change Vanessa's growths to match Palla's ones, without inserting Palla herself. The only justification I can see for it is aesthetics/fan favoritism. I do NOT want to see the latter in something that's touting itself as a harder version of anything.

(in other words, I'll pass)

[Lancer]

You are free to change Vanessa's growths to match Palla's ones, without inserting Palla herself. The only justification I can see for it is aesthetics/fan favoritism. I do NOT want to see the latter in something that's touting itself as a harder version of anything.

(in other words, I'll pass)

That's fine, everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

[cyron]

eclipse does have a point reclassing is fine but flat out replacing character nullifies the harder version thing since you just made an addition

also since you havent changed dialog you may as well have just re classed/changed the growths on lute/Vanessa respectively

[phobia]

DO WANT

I'm going to try this right now.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Ah, damnit.

I've actually been working on working on reviving an old FE8 patch that focuses around balancing all characters/stats/classes/etc., making some engine changes, bumping up the difficulty (not just by bumping up stats, mind you, but character placement and maybe some map changes), and adding a couple maps/characters/classes. Been doing it for the last couple of weeks.

Now I need to figure out how to differentiate the KoT Patch from this project, because I'm not just dropping it. :>

[eclipse]

Ah, damnit.

I've actually been working on working on reviving an old FE8 patch that focuses around balancing all characters/stats/classes/etc., making some engine changes, bumping up the difficulty (not just by bumping up stats, mind you, but character placement and maybe some map changes), and adding a couple maps/characters/classes. Been doing it for the last couple of weeks.

Now I need to figure out how to differentiate the KoT Patch from this project, because I'm not just dropping it. :>

Move the enemies, and vary their trigger conditions intelligently.

[Shugey]

If you want an early game shaman and Vanessa with different growths then why not just change Vanessa's growths and make Lute a Shaman?

[Lancer]

Ah, damnit.

I've actually been working on working on reviving an old FE8 patch that focuses around balancing all characters/stats/classes/etc., making some engine changes, bumping up the difficulty (not just by bumping up stats, mind you, but character placement and maybe some map changes), and adding a couple maps/characters/classes. Been doing it for the last couple of weeks.

Now I need to figure out how to differentiate the KoT Patch from this project, because I'm not just dropping it. :>

Well, I can offer some advice.

1. Don't have the enemies one up the player in pretty much every single scenario.

2. Don't make the game hard to the point of being nearly unfair.

3. Don't do any custom events that are impossible to do via nightmare.

4. Don't add custom characters in and leave the game dull with the vanilla cast; doing so otherwise seems to piss people off despite the fact that the original cast was about as interesting as watching falling molasses.

5. Change enemy positions. (I'll admit, I didn't change enemy positions in FE8L, but this was mostly because the positions the enemies start at are already well placed, and most discrepancies can be fixed up with changing class or adding range or changing the AI patterns.)

@Eclipse:

I don't think you have any right to provide input right now eclipse, given that you haven't yet played the patch.

@Shugey:

I've also already mentioned that I very much dislike Lute and Vanessa. If it makes you people feel any better, I'll go change the name of this hack right now so that people stop QQing about this. This is my hack, and my preference. I'll release a version without the custom characters after to satisfy you boys, but that's after.

@Skysentinel: Please enjoy yourself :3

I really dislike repeating myself. I'm going to ignore any messages that can be answered by just scrolling up and reading the other posts unless this thread gets really big.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Lancer

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

5. Change enemy positions. (I'll admit, I didn't change enemy positions in FE8L, but this was mostly because the positions the enemies start at are already well placed, and most discrepancies can be fixed up with changing class or adding range or changing the AI patterns.)

Actually, at least for Prologue - Chapter 2, I can definitely attest to this. I went to move enemies around and I realized I really couldn't place them anywhere else without making the level design WORSE. The pacing feels nearly perfect on these maps, and it feels like I would be just moving the enemies to move them. I might slightly change the terrain in the maps so I can give them a slightly different feel instead.

Since the upcoming KoT patch (yes, I might have to change the name because people might confuse it for Kitty of Time, I know) is modeled after the Shin patch, this will work.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Esme]

Well, I just tried the hack. I like it so far. Chapter 5 is proving to be REALLY tough due to the pirates.

I'm not a big fan of the Vanessa, Lute, and Caellach edits but they're pretty minor and they don't really bother me too much. Plus, in the case of Chione, it's pretty nice to have another Shaman that ISN'T Knoll.

All in all, good job with the hack. I'd like to play some more chapters after 8 soon.

[The Iron Rose]

It`s the Calleach thing that pisses me the hell off.

It's so utterly, utterly trivializing.

[dondon151]

17 def Paladin is easy. Rapier, Halberd, Reginleif. FE8 has 3x effectiveness. GG.

If you're going to make accusations, try giving it a playthrough before you make arbitrary statements like that.

defensive much

first of all, i (or anyone else) am perfectly qualified to give criticism based on the images that you provide. you chose those images, so you should have expected impressions and criticisms to be formed based on those images. this is a very simple concept!

second, it is not my obligation to play this hack if i just wanted a little bit more information. if i wanted to know whether a restaurant were good or not, i would appraise it first instead of waltzing in and ordering something arbitrary. being defensive is not going to pique anyone's interest.

third, a L1 paladin with 17 def leads me to believe that every promoted enemy later in the game will have a ridiculous amount of def. this makes the game tedious. even L10 paladins in H3 of FE12 had only 14 def (the L10 generals actually had 17 def). if i wanted a difficult version of FE8 with massive enemy stat inflation that has a handful of arbitrary character swaps, then i'd play chinaFE. you yourself stated the paladin was originally a vanguard, which i'm assuming is not significantly stronger stat-wise than a paladin, and that it was unfair. so the problem that i have here is not that the paladin itself is unfair, but that there will be some fundamental balance problem that happens later in the game. (plus that image of neimi doing 6/29 HP damage to a brigand doesn't assuage these concerns, either.)

man, get off your high horse or something. i know that you're probably sick of all of the complaints about the arbitrary character swaps (in my opinion, either go all the way or don't do it at all), and i would be too, but wow.

Edited April 7, 2013 by dondon151

[eclipse]

@Eclipse:

I don't think you have any right to provide input right now eclipse, given that you haven't yet played the patch.

Intelligent enemy positioning/spawning is somewhat subjective; two different hacks can do this, and have two different interpretations of it; thus, two different Lunatic patches for the same game can exist peacefully next to each other. Since I have no idea of what you did, besides the aesthetics things, I wouldn't know whether or not you did this (and/or to what extent). Thus, it would be foolish of me to use it as criticism of your hack, which is why I'm puzzled as to why you seemed to have taken it that way.

[Shin]

Yo, I've just played up until chapter 4. Whilst it's obvious you've put quite a bit of time into this, it's really not that enjoyable. Everyone not called Seth dies in 2 hits. Plus, with the speedwings in the chapter 2 shop, I managed to get Seth an extra 4 speed. Palla is an odd change but I really don't care, Franz has become worthless, Gilliam gets doubled by everything. It's boiled down to Seth kills stuff, the others steal kills and Moulder does his best to make sure nobody dies.

The inclusion of killer weapons so early feels lame, since they obliterate everyone not Seth. FE8 was too easy because you could just use Seth and win. This thing is tedious enough that you have to use Seth for everything. I'm not really impressed with enemy placements either, it's more that you've given them stupid stats and weapons than anything else.

[Crimson Red]

It's like Seth Emblem, the FE8 version of Frederick Emblem XP

Also if Lancer's getting defensive it's because people are getting offensive, he stated his reasoning for his edits, whether you think his reasoning is okay or terrible, you don't have to keep bringing it up over and over. Personally, I'm not a fan of the inserts, nor am I totally fond of his reasoning, but I know when to drop things and let them be :P (directed at no one specifically, just saying)

its kind of like asking your boss for a raise. Once or twice is okay, but anymore and your boss will think you're an annoying prick and fire you instead

[Lancer]

Well, I just tried the hack. I like it so far. Chapter 5 is proving to be REALLY tough due to the pirates.

I'm not a big fan of the Vanessa, Lute, and Caellach edits but they're pretty minor and they don't really bother me too much. Plus, in the case of Chione, it's pretty nice to have another Shaman that ISN'T Knoll.

All in all, good job with the hack. I'd like to play some more chapters after 8 soon.

Thank you!

defensive much

first of all, i (or anyone else) am perfectly qualified to give criticism based on the images that you provide. you chose those images, so you should have expected impressions and criticisms to be formed based on those images. this is a very simple concept!

second, it is not my obligation to play this hack if i just wanted a little bit more information. if i wanted to know whether a restaurant were good or not, i would appraise it first instead of waltzing in and ordering something arbitrary. being defensive is not going to pique anyone's interest.

third, a L1 paladin with 17 def leads me to believe that every promoted enemy later in the game will have a ridiculous amount of def. this makes the game tedious. even L10 paladins in H3 of FE12 had only 14 def (the L10 generals actually had 17 def). if i wanted a difficult version of FE8 with massive enemy stat inflation that has a handful of arbitrary character swaps, then i'd play chinaFE. you yourself stated the paladin was originally a vanguard, which i'm assuming is not significantly stronger stat-wise than a paladin, and that it was unfair. so the problem that i have here is not that the paladin itself is unfair, but that there will be some fundamental balance problem that happens later in the game. (plus that image of neimi doing 6/29 HP damage to a brigand doesn't assuage these concerns, either.)

man, get off your high horse or something. i know that you're probably sick of all of the complaints about the arbitrary character swaps (in my opinion, either go all the way or don't do it at all), and i would be too, but wow.

Note the name of the Paladin and his luck stat. That was a special enemy unit (Officers have stat boosts compared to Soldiers).

The problem with the original Vanguard Officer was the +15 crit, and the speed increase (the Vanguard Officer had 18 speed at level 1 plus no weakness, far too dangerous). Plus, FE8LS uses a system more similar to Radiant Dawn Hard for enemy stats rather than DS or GBA stats. For example, a level 1 Blade Paladin in RD had a base defense of 17. http://serenesforest.net/fe10/class_base.html The growth rates in FE8LS are also more impressive so you can contend with these enemies when they start coming at you en masse given tactical intelligence.

I know well enough when to throw what enemies at the player to give the player a large challenge while still being fair. You won't be seeing mass paladins or vanguards for a while.

I never said you had to play it. I'm saying you should save your critique for when you do play it. And this is FE hacking, not a restaurant. You're not paying a cent to play this.

Intelligent enemy positioning/spawning is somewhat subjective; two different hacks can do this, and have two different interpretations of it; thus, two different Lunatic patches for the same game can exist peacefully next to each other. Since I have no idea of what you did, besides the aesthetics things, I wouldn't know whether or not you did this (and/or to what extent). Thus, it would be foolish of me to use it as criticism of your hack, which is why I'm puzzled as to why you seemed to have taken it that way.

Sorry, I took your comment wrong. I was getting a bit tired last night.

Yo, I've just played up until chapter 4. Whilst it's obvious you've put quite a bit of time into this, it's really not that enjoyable. Everyone not called Seth dies in 2 hits. Plus, with the speedwings in the chapter 2 shop, I managed to get Seth an extra 4 speed. Palla is an odd change but I really don't care, Franz has become worthless, Gilliam gets doubled by everything. It's boiled down to Seth kills stuff, the others steal kills and Moulder does his best to make sure nobody dies.

The inclusion of killer weapons so early feels lame, since they obliterate everyone not Seth. FE8 was too easy because you could just use Seth and win. This thing is tedious enough that you have to use Seth for everything. I'm not really impressed with enemy placements either, it's more that you've given them stupid stats and weapons than anything else.

Thank you for this. I'll probably remove Killer Weapons during the first few chapters in the next patch, it's a good thing you brought this into attention. The only thing is that every killer weapon you face is at the start of the chapter, so if you do lose to them you can restart without losing much progress, unlike if they were at the middle or near the end of the chapter, but nonetheless they will be suspect for the next patch.

I assume you're unfamiliar with FEA lunatic. The concept for FE8LS is pretty similar; just like in FEA lunatic, everyone not named Seth / Frederick dies in 2 hits for a while (Unless you use Garcia. That guy can be pretty good~ Similar to an early show Gregor). While this hack is in fact difficult, it was the purpose of this hack to start with (hence Lunatic). Just like FEA Lunatic, the enemy equipment is meant to always one up you.

[Espinosa]

The enemy con numbers seem a bit too high. 11 con on Myrms, 13 on Soldiers? Doesn't seem like anybody besides your characters are weighed down by anything they equip.

[dondon151]

For example, a level 1 Blade Paladin in RD had a base defense of 17. http://serenesforest.net/fe10/class_base.html The growth rates in FE8LS are also more impressive so you can contend with these enemies when they start coming at you en masse given tactical intelligence.

RD had cheap forging, stronger weapons, and skills, in addition to player units (at least, the good ones) being much stronger than enemy units. compare this to FE12, where player units are more comparable to enemy units. you're much more likely to have a scenario like FE12 instead of a scenario like FE10.

I assume you're unfamiliar with FEA lunatic. The concept for FE8LS is pretty similar; just like in FEA lunatic, everyone not named Seth / Frederick dies in 2 hits for a while (Unless you use Garcia. That guy can be pretty good~ Similar to an early show Gregor). While this hack is in fact difficult, it was the purpose of this hack to start with (hence Lunatic). Just like FEA Lunatic, the enemy equipment is meant to always one up you.

but FEA lunatic is not a good model for 2 reasons:

1. FEA has pair up; FE8 does not. pair up equalizes the disparity between player and enemy units by a huge amount, and it also allows for the abuse of veteran on lunatic mode.

2. a huge portion of the FEA cast is unusable in lunatic.

FE12 is a better model because its mechanics are most similar to FE8's. not only that, but it still manages to be difficult by virtue of having enemies with better equipment and certain better stats than player units.

[Lancer]

The enemy con numbers seem a bit too high. 11 con on Myrms, 13 on Soldiers? Doesn't seem like anybody besides your characters are weighed down by anything they equip.

;)

No, they do get weighed down. Stuff like Steel Pikes and the like still hurt them.

RD had cheap forging, stronger weapons, and skills, in addition to player units (at least, the good ones) being much stronger than enemy units. compare this to FE12, where player units are more comparable to enemy units. you're much more likely to have a scenario like FE12 instead of a scenario like FE10.

but FEA lunatic is not a good model for 2 reasons:

1. FEA has pair up; FE8 does not. pair up equalizes the disparity between player and enemy units by a huge amount, and it also allows for the abuse of veteran on lunatic mode.

2. a huge portion of the FEA cast is unusable in lunatic.

FE12 is a better model because its mechanics are most similar to FE8's. not only that, but it still manages to be difficult by virtue of having enemies with better equipment and certain better stats than player units.

Pair up barely does anything in the beginning of the game where it matters the most on lunatic mode. FEA Lunatic is Frederick Emblem for the first third of the game no matter how you really put it until Avatar's veteran starts kicking in.

In addition, your units are stronger in FE8LS than the original FE8. There are stronger weapons (Pikes, Blades, Poleaxes). Ranged weapons are even more accessible than they were in any other FE game. And there are skills in FE8.

[Shin]

Thank you for this. I'll probably remove Killer Weapons during the first few chapters in the next patch, it's a good thing you brought this into attention. The only thing is that every killer weapon you face is at the start of the chapter, so if you do lose to them you can restart without losing much progress, unlike if they were at the middle or near the end of the chapter, but nonetheless they will be suspect for the next patch.

I assume you're unfamiliar with FEA lunatic. The concept for FE8LS is pretty similar; just like in FEA lunatic, everyone not named Seth / Frederick dies in 2 hits for a while (Unless you use Garcia. That guy can be pretty good~ Similar to an early show Gregor). While this hack is in fact difficult, it was the purpose of this hack to start with (hence Lunatic). Just like FEA Lunatic, the enemy equipment is meant to always one up you.

No, it's just that there's no point using anyone other than Seth. I finished 5x, which was a pain and I have this;

I don't see why I should both deploying anyone else, Seth murders everyone. Garcia is sorta alright, but there's no point training anyone else. It's difficult in places, mostly because I tried to field chumps.

[Lancer]

No, it's just that there's no point using anyone other than Seth. I finished 5x, which was a pain and I have this;

I don't see why I should both deploying anyone else, Seth murders everyone. Garcia is sorta alright, but there's no point training anyone else. It's difficult in places, mostly because I tried to field chumps.

You probably should have used Neimi if you could have afforded one of the secrets, but I suppose you spent it on the speedwing. The shaman does good damage and has okay-ish accuracy, and Palla / Vanessa can be pretty handy if you managed to get the southern village on chapter 2, and Eirika is pretty good since she had a lot of opportunity to level in axe land.

It's a good thing level 10 Seth's stats a bit better than that of a level 1 Officer. I suppose the game does forgive you for abusing Seth though, given that you'll get more worthwhile characters along the way (Forde, Kyle & Ephraim are all pretty good, and 5x gives them a lot of levels if you tried to minimize Orson's use). However, I assure you Seth won't be able to solo the hack.

[dondon151]

Pair up barely does anything in the beginning of the game where it matters the most on lunatic mode. FEA Lunatic is Frederick Emblem for the first third of the game no matter how you really put it until Avatar's veteran starts kicking in.

yeah it does! pair up with frederick is very common because the stat bonuses matter to him. from what i've heard, pair up with lon'qu and kellam are also relatively useful. after the earlygame, pair up avatar and chrom confers numerous benefits that cannot be obtained via other mechanics in FE8 (and the pairing itself supposedly trivializes the remainder of the game).

In addition, your units are stronger in FE8LS than the original FE8.

read again: player units relative to enemy units

There are stronger weapons (Pikes, Blades, Poleaxes).

but still no forging. based on your admission, these stronger weapons weigh enough to keep units from doubling, which defeats the point of stronger weaponry.

And there are skills in FE8.

oh, come on man, you are being pedantic. i am certain that you knew what i meant. the only skill in FE8 that increases damage output is pierce. FEA has a million skills that increase damage output in some way. FE10 had every mastery in existence plus adept. you can't make a comparison between the two.

you are being obstinate right now despite our legitimate and constructive criticisms. now, coming from me it probably doesn't seem so constructive because i don't tend to rub people the right way, but you have to look at existing examples of hard modes from the most recent FE games and identify what IS did wrong. what's the point of making something "like" FEA lunatic if you're just going to exacerbate all of the problems that the original had?

finally:

I never said you had to play it. I'm saying you should save your critique for when you do play it. And this is FE hacking, not a restaurant. You're not paying a cent to play this.

are you implying that the time that players put into this is not worth anything?

[PKL]

Now I will need to rename my hack...:/

[Vorena]

Are you still working on that PKL?

I played the first couple of chapters. Its funny how Eirika is one of the only units which can gain experience due to evasion.